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#1
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T206 HOF tiers
Over the past few years, we've seen some surges in several T206 hall of famers. I know this discussion has been brought up in the past, but I think some things have changed since then. What would you consider the "tiers" of T206 HOFers if you had to group them by perceived demand. Let's look at it from the standpoint of players (not poses/variations) and exclude the super rarities (e.g. Wagner, Plank, etc..). My initial thought is:
Tier 1 - Ty Cobb Tier 2 - Walter Johnson, Cy Young Tier 3 - Mathewson, Speaker Tier 4 - Lajoie, E. Collins Tier 5 - M. Brown, E. Walsh, A. Joss, W. Keeler, Z. Wheat, J. Chesbro Tier 6 - S. Crawford, C. Bender, J. Tinker, J. Evers, F. Chance Tier 7 - Everyone else I realize the portraits skew everything a bit. A portrait Lajoie could be considered Tier 3 or a Mathewson portrait in Tier 2. But, if we're just looking at the players and the current conditions, where am I off?
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An$on Lyt!e |
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I like
what you have compiled....pretty close
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#3
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I'd get rid of Tier 4 and push Eddie Collins down / LaJoie up.
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#4
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I agree with this and I would merge Tiers 5&6 and just make them all a single Tier 4 and add Bender & Baker (i.e., HOFers that matter). After these guys, you have the Jennings, Wallace, Beckley, J Collins, etc who are HOFers but are (in my opinion) glorified commons.
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#5
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Personally, I would group Mathewson with Johnson and Young.
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#6
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I agree that there's no way Eddie Collins belongs in a tier with Lajoie. He's treated as a mid-tier HOFer by the market, despite his great stats. Below are the current SMR prices for a PSA 5 of each T206 card of these players, grouped by the OP's suggested tiers. Clearly Cobb is in a class of his own, followed by Young and WaJo. Matty could arguably go in that second tier as well, and Speaker is not far behind. After that comes Lajoie, then Tinker-Evers-Chance, then (arguably) one tier containing the rest of these players, including Collins. Some other players would also belong in that tier, like Home Run Baker ($450 for a PSA 5, higher than Collins). Of course, SMR prices don't necessarily correspond directly to the market (you could probably double most of them), but they seem to be a reasonably accurate measure of relative value.
Cobb green: 15,000 Cobb red: 5,750 Cobb bat on: 5,750 Cobb bat off: 5,500 Young portrait: 3,500 Young bare hand: 1,950 Young glove: 1,750 WaJo portrait: 3,000 WaJo hands at chest: 1,650 Matty portrait: 3,000 Matty white cap: 1,750 Matty dark cap: 1,350 Speaker: 1,350 Lajoie portrait: 750 Lajoie bat: 625 Lajoie throwing: 550 E. Collins: 425 M. Brown Cubs: 485 M. Brown portrait: 475 M. Brown Chicago: 425 Walsh: 525 Joss portrait: 500 Joss hands at chest: 425 Keeler portrait: 650 Keeler bat: 550 Wheat: 500 Chesbro: 450 Crawford throwing 400 Crawford bat: 375 Bender portrait: 450 Bender trees: 400 Bender no trees: 375 Tinker portrait: 700 Tinker knees: 600 Tinker bat off: 495 Tinker bat on: 495 Evers portrait: 575 Evers Cubs: 515 Evers Chicago: 490 Chance yellow: 575 Chance red: 550 Chance batting: 450 |
#7
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Some good insight and research. Maybe my inclusion of Collins is wishful thinking. I don't understand why he's not more sought after, given his performance and the lone, beautiful red portrait in the T206 set.
I did forget Baker, who seems to garner more attention than players with similar output. Admittedly, his mid-grade examples don't seem to come up as often and they always have big price tags.
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An$on Lyt!e |
#8
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LaJoie clearly in front of Speaker at least his portrait is. 750 for psa not even close you can't even get a 4 for 1k these days. Granted the other cards trade for far more than those SMR prices cited but I'd much prefer a LaJoie portrait over the Speaker in PSA 5. Similarly I think that Mathewson portrait rivals the Young Portrait but not the Johnson. I'd say Tier 1 Cobb, Tier 2 Johnson, Tier 3 Mathewson, Young, Tier 4 LaJoie, Speaker.
Last edited by iwantitiwinit; 12-07-2018 at 02:17 PM. |
#9
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This.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#10
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#11
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Tier 1 Cobb
Tier 2 Johnson, Cy Young Tier 3 Mathewson, LaJoie Tier 4 Speaker, Collins. (Evers, Tinkers, Brown, Joss Portraits) Tier 5 Joss, Baker, TEC ect Tier 6 the rest of the HOFers |
#12
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I'm not necessarily a huge Collins fan. I can appreciate his success, especially his base-stealing skills well into his 30s. I wasn't arguing that he should be considered along with the top dogs. But, his numbers aren't much different from Lajoie. He just happens to have a single T206 instead of three. My comment was only exploring why he's held in significantly lower regard compared to Lajoie. It's hard to think of two more comparable players.
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An$on Lyt!e |
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Lajoie -V- Collins
I think the '33 Goudey Lajoie raised his stock in the collecting world.
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#14
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young should have an up arrow
i agree with those who put mathewson/wajo/young on the same tier currently but i think young (at least the portrait) will eventually break upward from mathewson for a couple of reasons:
1. as unbreakable a record as it gets in the most followed pitching category (wins) 2. pitching award creates name recognition among all generations some consider the wajo portrait with piedmont 150 back a rookie card so it will likely retain its relative value from that. |
#15
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1. Cobb
2. WaJo, Young 3. Matty 4. Speaker, Lajoie 5. Keeler, Brown, Walsh, Joss, Tinker, Chesbro, Wadell, E. Collins 6. Everyone else |
#16
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T206
what about Jimmy Collins ..is he T 206 era ?
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#17
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#18
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Definitely Waddell would be in a tier higher than common HOFer.
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#19
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That is a good guess. I think slightly higher except for autographed ones.
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Leon Luckey |
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This is how I would rank...or at least how I collect.
1. Cobb 2. a. Johnson b. Mathewson c. Young 3. a. Speaker b. Lajoie 4. a. Brown b. Keeler c. Collins d. Waddell 5. a. Walsh b. Crawford c. Joss 6. Tinker to Evers to Chance 7. Everyone else Last edited by PiratesWS1979; 12-09-2018 at 07:13 AM. |
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If Wagner had been produced in the same numbers as Cobb or others on the list, where would he rank? Equal to Cobb? I would put him no lower than #2, along with Young, Johnson and Matty.
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Working Sets: Baseball- T206 SLers - Virginia League (-1) 1952 Topps - low numbers (-1) 1954 Bowman (-3) 1964 Topps Giants auto'd (-2) |
#22
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Its hard to separate the allure of the Wagner card from the player. But, Speaker was comparable and his T206 is a rookie. I would give Wagner a slight nod over Speaker, but most consider Speaker a distant tier 3.
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An$on Lyt!e Last edited by Throttlesteer; 12-09-2018 at 12:15 PM. |
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My quick take on it...
Tier 1 - Ty Cobb Tier 2 - Johnson, Matty, Young, Wagner (the player) Tier 3 - Lajoie, Speaker, Plank (the player) Tier 4 - E. Collins, M. Brown, Walsh, Joss, Keeler, Waddell Tier 5 - Crawford, Wheat, Chesbro Tier 6 - Everyone else (which could be further tiered) Last edited by MVSNYC; 12-09-2018 at 12:35 PM. |
#24
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If you look at the 1915 Cracker Jack set, Wagner is 3rd behind Shoeless Joe and Cobb, above Wajo and Matty and about 6 times more valuable than Speaker. If Wagner had 3 or 4 cards they would slot in behind Cobb. If he just had the 1 portrait, he would be about the same as the green Cobb.
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#25
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Quote:
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An$on Lyt!e |
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Bill James ranks Honus Wagner as the #2 player of all time. In the original HOF vote, Wagner finished tied for 2nd with Babe Ruth, behind only Cobb. I would argue the t206 Wagner gets a bump because he is one of the greatest players of all time. Otherwise it would be no different than the 1933 Goudey Lajoie or t206 Plank, cards that once comprised the big 3 of the hobby, but have lagged behind cards of better players. Kids in 1909 wanted Cobb and Wagner. That is still the case today.
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#27
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#28
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That PSA link is helpful.
Maybe someone who's good with spreadsheets (not me), can re-organize it all by rank? Some insightful take-aways. |
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#30
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Ah, thanks. the little button in the upper right did it!
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#31
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That's one set where the weight should have been adjusted to allow for more than a 10 point max. No way 10 commons should equal the Wagner.
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Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others. |
#32
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I'm surprised that they give Evers Blue Sky an equal weight with the Young, Matty and Johnson portraits.
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#33
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Sean- they factor in rarity, besides the desirability of the player. That pose was printed one year, I believe, so it's tougher.
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#34
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All the Chicago NL players with "Cubs" across chest are scarcer and more desirable than those with "Chicago" running vertically, IMO.
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#35
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#36
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McGraw gets little love when it comes to demand. His cards seem to fall on the lowest tier on average.
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An$on Lyt!e |
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delete.....
Last edited by CMIZ5290; 12-13-2018 at 06:32 PM. |
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An$on Lyt!e |
#39
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How do you look at it from just the standpoint of players (no poses or variations)with T206s? Poses and variations are a huge part of T206s....If you eliminate these, then what is the criteria exactly? Last edited by CMIZ5290; 12-13-2018 at 06:36 PM. |
#40
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Quote:
If we want to look at specific cards from each player, your point makes a lot of sense. The Lajoie vs. Collins debate is no different than the Speaker vs. Wagner debate. One is certainly more popular than the other. Their performance was much closer than their popularity.
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An$on Lyt!e |
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