Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

hahahahahahaha

We're still waiting for one from PSA about the Gretzky Wagner.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by drcy

We're still waiting for one from PSA about the Gretzky Wagner.

Amen

[chalupacollects]

And behind door number three... (drum roll)

[conor912]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

And behind door number three... (drum roll)

It was Colonel Mustard all along.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by conor912

It was Colonel Mustard all along.

Nope. It was Doctor Card ... in the basement ... with a Sharpie.

[SetBuilder]

The most crucial revelation here is that TPA's never take provenance into consideration like they do in the art market. Someone sends in a group of super rare signed cards with shaky ballpoint pen signatures and if they match their exemplar file of other shaky ballpoint pen signatures, they pass. There are videos on YouTube of people that can draw extremely detailed sketches with ballpoint pens entirely from memory. What makes you think scribbling a shaky "Frank Baker" in blue ballpoint is impossible? It's the opposite of impossible. Anyone with even a functional level of manual dexterity and hand eye coordination can forge that.

They never ask the submitter where the cards came from, what estate they were purchased from, where the original TTM envelopes are, etc. If the submitter can't answer that with ironclad proof, the TPA's can always refuse to render an opinion. They don't have to reject them, but they don't have to certify them either.

This is a huge dilemma for the TPAs, because if they start doing that, then business dries up completely due to the fact there are only so many legitimate autographs in the market, and most are already certified. It stands to reason that a good bulk of their business is comprised of fakes that recently popped out of nowhere. The legacy stuff from the 70's/80's/90's/00's is already well known and you can only milk them for so much money in authentication fees before it becomes overkill (double, triple certs).

When you look at the public filings of PSA (Nasdaq: CLCT), you see that they make the bulk of their revenue on cards (a lot modern) and coins. On the other hand, JSA only authenticates autographs. They have nothing to fall back on. Are they betting that there is a never ending stream of undiscovered autographs out there to make money on? How can this be realistic?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

JSA only authenticates autographs. They have nothing to fall back on. Are they betting that there is a never ending stream of undiscovered autographs out there to make money on? How can this be realistic?

I wish people would stop making tangents in this thread; it's just cluttering up the thread and people who are looking for information can't find it (but since you started the thread, I guess it's okay).
But to your point, there are plenty of undiscovered autographs. How many uncertified collections of mailers from the 40s and 50s are still in attics? A lot. How many autographs from Hall of Famers have yet to be signed at shows JSA certifies their autos at. Authentic autographs will never dry up. Many haven't been found; who has troves of college yearbooks? High school homework assignments? cancelled bank checks? Ledger books? library check out cards? These are all places autographs come from and will continue to come from.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The most crucial revelation here is that TPA's never take provenance into consideration like they do in the art market. Someone sends in a group of super rare signed cards with shaky ballpoint pen signatures and if they match their exemplar file of other shaky ballpoint pen signatures, they pass. There are videos on YouTube of people that can draw extremely detailed sketches with ballpoint pens entirely from memory. What makes you think scribbling a shaky "Frank Baker" in blue ballpoint is impossible? It's the opposite of impossible. Anyone with even a functional level of manual dexterity and hand eye coordination can forge that.

They never ask the submitter where the cards came from, what estate they were purchased from, where the original TTM envelopes are, etc. If the submitter can't answer that with ironclad proof, the TPA's can always refuse to render an opinion. They don't have to reject them, but they don't have to certify them either.

This is a huge dilemma for the TPAs, because if they start doing that, then business dries up completely due to the fact there are only so many legitimate autographs in the market, and most are already certified. It stands to reason that a good bulk of their business is comprised of fakes that recently popped out of nowhere. The legacy stuff from the 70's/80's/90's/00's is already well known and you can only milk them for so much money in authentication fees before it becomes overkill (double, triple certs).

When you look at the public filings of PSA (Nasdaq: CLCT), you see that they make the bulk of their revenue on cards (a lot modern) and coins. On the other hand, JSA only authenticates autographs. They have nothing to fall back on. Are they betting that there is a never ending stream of undiscovered autographs out there to make money on? How can this be realistic?

Agree. When someone asks me for a formal opinion on something, I always ask where he got it, even if the answer is just going to be what auction.