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#251
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I presume law enforcement will take an active interest in this, and I presume the AHs will cooperate with law enforcement. I don't think we need a public outing to accomplish the goal here. It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-29-2018 at 11:36 AM. |
#252
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Isn't it really as simple as finding out who submitted them for grading and who consigned them to the various auctions? If it's one and the same, seems pretty open and shut case. If not, perhaps a middle man or a private sale in between(which I doubt).
Seems like a couple of phone calls to the various entities would provide the answers. Last edited by sb1; 11-29-2018 at 11:54 AM. |
#253
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My hope is that they are already moving on that as we speak.
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"What I have done after my baseball career -- being able to help people with their lives and getting their lives back on track so they become productive human beings again -- that means more to me than all the things I did in baseball" - Don Newcombe https://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/jgmp123 |
#254
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+++
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Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#255
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Perhaps they wouldn't release that information to the general public understandably, but might to one of the affected parties and most assuredly to legal authorities or demand letters, lest they wait for a court order or such. I can't imagine they would want to drag themselves through all that. It would be much easier to bring it all to light and start showing some signs of responsibility, which REA has by already refunding some parties.
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#256
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#257
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I agree with this, to a point. I think there is a systemic problem with blindly trusting third party grading. It's far too easy for a seller, AH or otherwise, to hide behind the fact that it was given a green light by a "professional grader/authenticator" and try to wash their hands of all liability. IMO, if you accept money for something, regardless of where you are in the chain, you need to be at least partially responsible for its legitimacy.
I think it sort has been all along anyways, but certainly will be from now, for me to just assume an auto is fake until I have been convinced otherwise, which will now be pretty much impossible since that was the whole point of third party grading to begin with.
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Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 |
#258
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The AH and TPA MUST go to law enforcement. This has to be nipped now and the guilty party or parties must be prosecuted and imprisoned.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#259
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+1!!!
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"What I have done after my baseball career -- being able to help people with their lives and getting their lives back on track so they become productive human beings again -- that means more to me than all the things I did in baseball" - Don Newcombe https://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/jgmp123 |
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If the money amount is high the FBI should be the LE contacted.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#261
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OBC (oldbaseball.com) member since 1996... looking for a low-budget T205 Irvin Wilhelm w/ "suffered" Scans of my Brooklyn Dodger collection |
#262
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So these are on eBay right now...feels like there should be a moratorium on selling these until dust settles. Just my $.02.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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M@tt McC@arthy I collect Hal Chase, Diamond Stars (PSA 5 or better), 1951 Bowman (Raw Ex or better), 1954 Topps (PSA 7 or better), 1956 Topps (Raw Ex or better), 3x5 Hall of Fame Autographs and autographed Perez Steele Postcards. You can see my collection by going to http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/BigSix. |
#263
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A very good hobby friend has said this to me via an email:
"Rich, there was a lot more than one forger and has been going on for a long time, they have been doing tons of Goudey cards too. Ever since signed cards got hot they switched gears from single-signed balls to cards because they were easier and cheaper, I used to get at least a few emails a week for opinions on signed cards and I always said the same. Rarely did collectors get them signed and too easy for forgers to make a quick buck by turning a beat-up $5.00 card into 10k or more and they could do 20 of them and if only one passed tpa they made bank."
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 11-29-2018 at 12:59 PM. |
#264
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Well guess it may depend on how it hits their bottom lines moving forward...and if the LEO's involve themselves in to the party,,,
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Successful B/S/T deals with asoriano, obcbobd, x2dRich2000, eyecollectvintage, RepublicaninMass, Kwikford, Oneofthree67, jfkheat, scottglevy, whitehse, GoldenAge50s, Peter Spaeth, Northviewcats, megalimey, BenitoMcNamara, Edwolf1963, mightyq, sidepocket, darwinbulldog, jasonc, jessejames, sb1, rjackson44, bobbyw8469, quinnsryche, Carter08, philliesfan and ALBB, Buythatcard and JimmyC so far. |
#265
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We didn't learn much from Operation Bullpen, did we? Over and over, people are going to fall for fraud because wishful thinking trumps common sense.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-29-2018 at 01:02 PM. |
#266
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A friend of mine has speculated that the forger is a member of 54. He has no evidence and said he did not have someone in mind, just a random thought. If so I would think he has a one-way ticket to a country without an extradition treaty by now . If the FBI does truly get involved this seems like it will wind up as an open and shut case, with a lengthy prison sentence at the end of that tunnel, not to mention high legal fees. I would also think asset seizure to make restitution.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 11-29-2018 at 01:11 PM. |
#267
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I am not tech savvy... Last edited by Laxcat; 11-29-2018 at 01:12 PM. |
#268
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-29-2018 at 01:18 PM. |
#269
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Last edited by Duluth Eskimo; 11-29-2018 at 01:23 PM. |
#270
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I have worked with more than one LE person in autograph cases and I know they have been very diligent in pursuing criminals. But you are correct about the US Atty and district attorney. I and others here know of one instance where vigorous work by LE led to a dropped ball by a US Atty. . But I have seen cases, as we all have, where the criminals have not gotten off so lightly. And I do think that if major auction houses get behind this, perhaps that would make it difficult for this criminal(s) to get a light sentence.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 11-29-2018 at 01:31 PM. |
#271
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Some pyramid schemes have reaped billions for the founders.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#272
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We have a strange, strange legal system, no doubt. All depends on the states, the rules, the attorneys, how much money you have, your legal team, etc., etc., etc.... Saw an episode of American Greed the other day about the shoplifting Bogdanov family. They lifted literally millions of dollars worth of goods over several years, crossed state lines constantly to do their business and attracted the attention of federal authorities to conduct an investigation and prosecution that must have cost 100's of thousands of dollars itself. Had fences everywhere and sold their crap on Ebay/Amazon for millions. They got 4 years, 3 years and 15 months respectively. Meanwhile there's a women in Texas with a resident card who thought that it entitled her to be able to vote that is serving 7 years, and there's probably 1000's of potheads throughout the entire country serving 20+ years or more for non-violent offenses, while most of the nation is finally coming to grips that it's more benign and medically worthwhile then most of the stuff that the pharmaceutical companies pump out to us legally (and I'm speaking as someone who's never partaken myself). BTW is Coach's Corner still in business? |
#273
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"... they have been doing tons of Goudey cards too ..."
A ton of signed Goudeys were recently auctioned off by REA, and it's amazing how many sold for between $5,000 and $10,000 each. Not just stars, but average players with tough autographs. I'll bet some of those buyers are nervously watching this thread. |
#274
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The culprits need to be outed. When they are outed and we know who they are they will lose their ability to deal with us and anyone else who finds the post. If it saves even one collector from being cheated it is worthwhile.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
#275
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I more had autos in mind, but to your example, I'd say it depends on where the perceived value lies. Is the value in the card, or in the card in the slab? Obviously in most cases these days most of the value is in the latter. If they cracked it, then at that point they can no longer return to you the item which you sold them, which was the card in the slab - the moment they crack it out, it becomes a different product. At that point I wouldn't think they would be entitled to a refund from you and should go straight back to the TPG that originally graded it and sort it out with them.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 |
#276
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#277
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#278
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__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#279
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Agreed.
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#280
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Thanks Ulysses. |
#281
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My comment wasn’t to bash on you as I know everyone’s heart is in the right place. Problem is the criminal justice system is very broken and good hard work and efforts throughout the system is hard to find. Silver platter cases rot on the vine many times because people fail or refuse to do their jobs.
Some of the hardest work for investigating hobby crimes comes from members of this board. The best thing to do is put these people on blast and publicly shame the hell out of them. If prosecution happens, great. If not, the hobby still gets its pound of flesh. The authentication companies and auctions have nothing to gain from publicizing this. This publicity has been forced by this board. Everyone, keep up the good work. Jason |
#282
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The public outing will occur in time. The walls should close in quickly if it's a sole perp. You have to get the feeling the asshole has probably figured out by now that their scheme is now exposed. Let's just hope that butthead doesn't screw over any more people that don't realize what's happening.
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fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#283
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I generally don't even do pre-war, but this type of crap is precisely why I have never seriously been interested in collecting autos.
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Prewar, Bowman & Topps Cubs team endeavors. |
#284
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The signed ones I've seen look suspiciously like the forged T206 cards. Same style of handwriting. I've seen quite a few with signatures in exactly the same place and at the same angle, but with different pens. Very weird and highly improbable. |
#285
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There’s just as much card doctoring with 50’s and newer cards as well.
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#286
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Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 |
#287
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I asked this type of question in another thread. Being that TPAs are promoting their service as much to enhance the value of an item, as they are to provide confidence in authenticity of said item, what obligation do they have to any one person in the buyer-seller transaction realm with regards to the change in value of the item? I don't know the legal answer to that.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#288
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#289
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__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 |
#290
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I posted this in a similar thread on the auto side, but feel it is relevant here as well.
The problem, and my main bone of contention with TPAs in my many rants on Net54 and other places, is that people placed them too high on a pedestal. The public took TPA OPINIONS, and made them definitive confirmations of truth. I saw an interview of a panel of autograph experts, from a number of years ago, where Kevin Keating, who was one of the panel, stated that he wished what PSA would give were called a "Letter of Opinion" rather than a "Letter of Authenticity" for this exact reason. This blind faith in TPAs has given rise to the lowering of our guard as to what we know vs what we want to believe. Due diligence was now something the TPAs were supposed to do for us. Unfortunately, it would be impossible for them to process the volume of autos they do and still take the time to do the legwork Manny did to open up this can of worms. Now the TPAs did nothing to stop people from taking their opinions as fact. Why would they? The more people trust them, the more business they get.(which of course leads to higher volume which means less time spent per auto, This also means less time to do any sort of investigation like has been done with the T206s. This also means that less skilled and experienced people would need to be vetting the autos in order to meet the time guidelines for submission levels.) The auction houses also share responsibility as they have now outsourced much of their due diligence to TPAs, for both autos and cards. Why wouldn't they? They get to have clean hands from any disputes as they are not responsible for saying the autos are real. By pushing more and more on the TPA, this furthers their reputation of reliability which increases their business volume, which makes all the problems I noted before that much worse. No solution will satisfy everyone is the reality. TPAs have good and bad things about them. IMO, The best way to collect autos is to 1) due your own due diligence. Start by being a skeptic and demand the auto be proven real rather than the other way. 2) Develop a network of people whose opinion you trust to help you see things without emotion. 3) Understand what level of risk you are willing to accept. If your answer is none, then you should not collect anything at all. Save your money and go on vacations around the world. Anywhere demand and money meet, criminals will look to take advantage. It is true in any collectible. 4)If it's too good to be true it probably is.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#291
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-29-2018 at 03:00 PM. |
#293
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I wonder if any more of these auto cards are sitting at SGC, PSA etc waiting to be certified ? They would have been sent in weeks ago .
__________________
Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline). |
#294
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I think, if the person breaks the slab, then I agree with you in some ways. You sold a slabbed card. The person is returning an unslabbed card. Who's to say they didn't do something to the card or are trying to do something underhanded themselves. Supposed the TPA dropped it and damaged the card? I can definitely see there being a case for not accepting it back in that instance. What I was more addressing was the slabbed card being returned in the same condition but now being know to be fake. Somehow I think I interpreted one of your responses that way. I agree with Conor in that if you are selling an item, you should stand behind that item, but when the item has been altered it makes the water much more muddy. As far as the time frame, with a business like a known dealer, the time frame should not matter. When it's a collector to collector, it becomes difficult to swallow the further out it goes. I don't think there is any one right way.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL Last edited by Lordstan; 11-29-2018 at 03:09 PM. |
#295
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Great point. You’d think the forgers machine is still rolling and that there would be new attempts at Authentication currently at these companies.
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#296
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It is my understanding that Manny found these in minutes through a simple search. For $XXX, I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect 10 minutes of online research into a particular card.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 |
#297
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I was wondering how many are sitting at auction houses right now, waiting to be listed?
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#298
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....or has already bought a plane ticket to Costa Rica. |
#299
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I dont know why when someone buys cards to than fake sign them, why not change the card more...i know you willl lose some money for a lesser condition card but doesnt these valued Autos make it worth it....if the new person took a corner off or put another black dot or two on it....nobody would of been the wiser.......
plus having 3 dot stains versus now 5 dots..probably changes the value hardly anything Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 11-29-2018 at 03:15 PM. |
#300
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10min per item would time out to only 48 items certed per day per 8hr shift or 240 items per week. Considering all the slabs and certs these companies churn out, do you really think most TPAs are spending 10min per item? If they are who is actually doing all the certing? Are the name people at PSA working 30hrs a day? If not, who is doing it? What are their qualifications outside of having a big computer exemplar file?
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
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