Did I buy a Fake Marquard Signed T206?

[Leon]

I am told by a very reliable source that the autograph was authenticated by Jimmy Spence himself at the CleanSweep Auctions office.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am told by a very reliable source that the autograph was authenticated by Jimmy Spence himself at the CleanSweep Auctions office.

Can your source find out if all of the William autos were in the same group being submitted.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Can your source find out if all of the William autos were in the same group being submitted.

He said they were not. It is a completely different source.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by Leon

He said they were not. It is a completely different source.

One of those williams is in this months clean sweep auction... something doesnt smell right here

[Bigdaddy]

As someone said above, kudos to SGC on this one. And Manny also.

Very interesting to see where this trail leads. So much info is available or stored electronically these days, and with the short time frame from PSA encapsulated card to defaced T206, I would be surprised if a trail of ownership can't be put together shortly.

I'm going to have to binge watch this thread like a new season of 'Stranger Things'.

[T206Collector]

Autograph collecting is a scary hobby, and this kind of revelation can shock it to the core. But it’s not any more scary to me than dealing in unsigned but valuable pre-war cards, which are susceptible to fraud as well (see Mastro Wagner).

Hopefully this kind of discovery will help strengthen the hobby in the long run by reminding us all how careful you have to be. Provenance is important, but hard to find in many cases. On the valuable ones, I try to have more than one authenticator review the item. But as long as authenticators are human they will make mistakes.

The sad irony of our hobby - cards and autographs - is that if PSA or JSA say the item isn’t good, then it doesn’t even matter if you pulled the card from a pack, or got the signature yourself in person. If a card doctor or forger is successful, the item gains an unjustified legitimacy as long as we continue to buy the holder not the card.

I’ll be updating the signed T206 Marquard pages to remove this one, and possibly the other one done in exactly the same spot and angle described here. It’s a damn shame, but the prevalence of signed T206 Marquards earning $1,000+ hammer prices appears to have invited forgers into this game. Marquard’s is such a common signature it is apparently all the more likely to pass the glazed eyes of a third-party authenticator.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Marquard’s is such a common signature it is apparently all the more likely to pass the glazed eyes of a third-party authenticator.

Apparently some moreso than others

[tmw2ward]

He died in 1980 at the age of 94. Wouldn't the sharpie signature be the first clue that this card was likely faked?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by tmw2ward

He died in 1980 at the age of 94. Wouldn't the sharpie signature be the first clue that this card was likely faked?

Sharpies were introduced to the world in 1964.

http://global.sharpie.com/en-CA/about-us

[theshleps]

Quote from T206 collector-I’ll be updating the signed T206 Marquard pages to remove this one, and possibly the other one done in exactly the same spot and angle described here.

I am hoping mine got from sig auctions and posted here was just the autograph the other with the photomatched card copied from as to angle, etc. since we do not have the exact presigned card located. Sometimes when I find out things like this I ewant to just sell the whole collection, depressing. I don't blame JSA. Even the Mayo clinic admits that physicians diagnosis is incorrect at least 20+% of the time. Mistakes will be made- it is just knowing that JSA, PSA etc are only opinions and much of the time by knowledgable folks.

[Fred]

You have to give SGC credit for not authenticating it, even with the JSA cert.

It will be interesting how this all shakes out.


Cliff,

If there is no investigation because Cleansweep refunded the money, then that will be sad. I would also request a refund for the money spent to have it authenticated by SGC. That only seems fair. Somehow I get the feeling you won't have any problem collecting that fee.

[Marslife]

Well…. All I can say off the bat is WOW! What a crazy story…

First of all I would like to apologize to the SGC authenticators. This thread went from what I thought would be an SGC bashing thread to a praise for their services! Thank you to SGC! Awesome job. I called them to personally leave a message of thanks.

Secondly…. What an awesome response to my “CALL FOR HELP!” I would like to thank all the members that spent time and energy in researching this card and signature, I cannot thank you enough! We may balk and chatter at one another from time to time, but when we put our collective minds together for a common cause, we cannot be stopped…. You guys are awesome and I am proud to be a member of this community!

That being said, I was heartbroken at the outcome, spending my nearly annual card budget on a forgery. Sickening…. My only hope is that this episode will help shine some light on the seedy dark corners of this hobby, and perhaps keep someone else from getting burned.

PS – Good news is that I just received and email with an apology, also advising that an error was made and restitution will be provided. I am to return the card and the LOA and the authenticators will offer me a full refund. I will update the post when restitution is made.

Thank you to Clean Sweep Auctions and JSA for offering to step up!

Mostly, thank you to the members that contributed, and this Forum for providing me the opportunity to share my story...

Much appreciated!

Cliff

[CuriousGeorge]

Now let’s see if they’re going to actually do something about this or just sweep it under the rug and allow all of the other forgeries this guy got authenticated to sell.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Marslife

Well…. All I can say off the bat is WOW! What a crazy story…

First of all I would like to apologize to the SGC authenticators. This thread went from what I thought would be an SGC bashing thread to a praise for their services! Thank you to SGC! Awesome job. I called them to personally leave a message of thanks.

Secondly…. What an awesome response to my “CALL FOR HELP!” I would like to thank all the members that spent time and energy in researching this card and signature, I cannot thank you enough! We may balk and chatter at one another from time to time, but when we put our collective minds together for a common cause, we cannot be stopped…. You guys are awesome and I am proud to be a member of this community!

That being said, I was heartbroken at the outcome, spending my nearly annual card budget on a forgery. Sickening…. My only hope is that this episode will help shine some light on the seedy dark corners of this hobby, and perhaps keep someone else from getting burned.

PS – Good news is that I just received and email with an apology, also advising that an error was made and restitution will be provided. I am to return the card and the LOA and the authenticators will offer me a full refund. I will update the post when restitution is made.

Thank you to Clean Sweep Auctions and JSA for offering to step up!

Mostly, thank you to the members that contributed, and this Forum for providing me the opportunity to share my story...

Much appreciated!

Cliff

Cliff,

Great to see that you were made whole.

Unfortunately, buying a forgery has become a rite of passage in the autograph hobby. After you buy a few, your eyes will be much more calibrated and able to detect fakes.

The lesson to be learned here is to be a little more skeptical.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am told by a very reliable source that the autograph was authenticated by Jimmy Spence himself at the CleanSweep Auctions office.

I know, I know, but this is worth a read on Mr. Spence.

[SetBuilder]

This can't be the only one. Each T206 card has a unique appearance that acts like a sort of fingerprint.

We should put together some kind of distributed research project where a high resolution scan of a signed T206 card appears side-by-side with all of the scans of known auction records. If the card isn't a match, you hit "next" over and over until all are viewed. Multiple people can go through 100,000+ cards fairly quickly.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

This can't be the only one. Each T206 card has a unique appearance that acts like a sort of fingerprint.

We should put together some kind of distributed research project where a high resolution scan of a signed T206 card appears side-by-side with all of the scans of known auction records. If the card isn't a match, you hit "next" over and over until all are viewed. Multiple people can go through 100,000+ cards fairly quickly.

I think this is a great idea for anyone looking to purchase a signed T206 that hasn't been identified yet. I have a pretty good database (or at least paper trail) on perhaps close to all of the signed T206s known to date, which would include any that have come up for auction since at least April 2007, if not earlier. If a new one pops up, part of the evaluation of the card's legitimacy for a prospective buyer should include a search through recent auctions for unsigned versions of that card. Obviously that will not always be practical or even possible. But it is an additional step in the right direction.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think this is a great idea for anyone looking to purchase a signed T206 that hasn't been identified yet. I have a pretty good database (or at least paper trail) on perhaps close to all of the signed T206s known to date, which would include any that have come up for auction since at least April 2007, if not earlier. If a new one pops up, part of the evaluation of the card's legitimacy for a prospective buyer should include a search through recent auctions for unsigned versions of that card. Obviously that will not always be practical or even possible. But it is an additional step in the right direction.

If PSA and SGC keep scans of all the cards they grade, would it be possible for them to release a data disc for research purposes?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

If PSA and SGC keep scans of all the cards they grade, would it be possible for them to release a data disc for research purposes?

I'm not sure they do, and I'd guess they wouldn't share with the public even for research purposes. The problem will really be that the most likely to get used for a forgery attempt would be the lower grade ones because the risk is much lower. There are still plenty of raw versions of those floating around. But, I would say that it is worth at least a quick google image, ebay, popular auction search before purchasing a signed T206 card going forward.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

If PSA and SGC keep scans of all the cards they grade

PSA does not, and does not even allow for you to request it. Would make their whole digital set registry (another source of scans....?) much easier to complete, but their costs would have to go up.
SGC announced earlier this year that they were going to start scanning every card graded by them, but I don't know when that will start.

[InYourDeFace]

Leon is right. The authorities don't care about autograph forgeries, generally. It is definitely hard to prosecute, so they won't dedicate limited resources to it.

eBay certainly doesn't care. Fraud sales are worth the same to them. Their fraud reporting process is a notorious farce.

Collectors care a lot, naturally, and should absolutely be constantly and actively policing fakes, of course. Manny deserves an award, and is a model of the kind of hobbyist that everyone should strive to be. Tremendous contribution!

Collectors need help. I think the best place to get the help is the authentication services and the auction houses. After all, their credibility is at stake.

I would think the services and the houses would want to know every time a decision of theirs can be proven wrong, or even highly questionable. I would think they would want to know about notorious forgers as soon as possible. As prices escalate, we all know that this activity will only increase. Now is the time for collectors, authentication services and auction houses to be actively and directly communicating about fake autographs. If they set up these channels, collectors will come.

Another FBI operation like Operation Bullpen would be very productive.

As far as the "never know" about autographs, because you weren't there" argument against autographs, I get it, but I have to disagree. I believe in most cases these autographs can be definitively authenticated. Many are "no doubters." Some autos will be questionable. Stay clear. Authentication services will never hit 1.000. Collectors should learn to do their own authenticating, and the Internet makes that possible, with the many examples that are now provided.

I definitely get why some think autograph collectors are crazy. I think part of the appeal is actually the danger/risk, to some anyway. It's a very harsh environment for the inexperienced and the uninformed. Doing a thorough, independent analysis of the autograph, and consulting with known, experienced collectors is a big part of the game. Everyone has been burned, but everyone improves over time, and can become as good or better than the paid authentication guys. No one is going to get it right every time. But the best come close.

You Net54 guys are so wise. If you were provided with direct fraud channels of communication with the services and houses, everyone would benefit.
You could thwart most of this forgery activity.

[22eckstein]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

This can't be the only one. Each T206 card has a unique appearance that acts like a sort of fingerprint.

We should put together some kind of distributed research project where a high resolution scan of a signed T206 card appears side-by-side with all of the scans of known auction records. If the card isn't a match, you hit "next" over and over until all are viewed. Multiple people can go through 100,000+ cards fairly quickly.

pretty good idea if enough people participated!