Back in the Day & The Future of Pitching

[frankbmd]

Nineteenth century pitchers frequently pitched the majority of their teams games, many of which were complete games. Four, five or six hundred innings pitched isn’t going to happen again, but ..................

The Brewers “formula” for pitcher usage raises the possibility that a Gio Gonzalez, for example, could be the starting pitcher for an entire 7 game series, while racking up a grand total of 14 innings.

Such a starting pitcher during the regular season could rack up the currently required 162 innings to qualify for the ERA league leadership and the like, but would also have to suffer the indignity of winning exactly “zero” games.

Seemingly meaningful statistics could be rendered obsolete as a result. Reworking the metrics to better accommodate and evaluate such a radical change in pitcher usage could have additional ramifications.

The Cy Young Award could be discontinued and replaced by the “Gio”.

[ValKehl]

Frank, you make some interesting points, but IMHO, you used a poor example in Gio Gonzalez. Gio's career has been as a starting pitcher. I think it far more likely that a career relief pitcher becomes the first to start all 7 games of a series.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=frankbmd;1819492]Eighteenth century pitchers frequently pitched the majority of their teams games, many of which were complete games. Four, five or six hundred innings pitched isn’t going to happen again, but ..................

QUOTE]

Thankfully things changed by the nineteenth century.

[frankbmd]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1819685]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Eighteenth century pitchers frequently pitched the majority of their teams games, many of which were complete games. Four, five or six hundred innings pitched isn’t going to happen again, but ..................

QUOTE]

Thankfully things changed by the nineteenth century.

I attribute my clairvoyance to being one hundred years off in either direction.

My insight in this regard also appears in the current T207 thread.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Frank, you make some interesting points, but IMHO, you used a poor example in Gio Gonzalez. Gio's career has been as a starting pitcher. I think it far more likely that a career relief pitcher becomes the first to start all 7 games of a series.

The premise is based on Counsell, not Gonzalez.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The premise is based on Counsell, not Gonzalez.

I know nothing about these players you speak of but it is a shame the way the pitching has gone. Going the whole 9 innings used to be fun to watch (for me, as a pitcher). Everything in baseball has just changed more than I really care for. I know I am probably "1 percenter" and am ok with that. In a current MLB season I might watch the equivalent of 1-2 games so I guess I do watch some. That said, I do like to watch semi pro (Frisco Roughriders are fun to go see), college and younger kids games. Those are fun to watch.

[frankbmd]

Another wrinkle today in the future of pitching is presented.

Dodger lineup stacked with right hand batters against the lefty Miley.

Miley walked the first batter and is immediately pulled and replaced with the right handed Woodruff.

Miley will start Game 6.

Remember what I postulated in the original post about back to back starts. Although the scenario is a bit different, I think I deserve a pat on the back.
Even I didn’t expect it to happen so soon.

[ValKehl]

Frank, I believe Stanley "Bucky" Harris, the "Boy Wonder" playing-manager of the 1924 Senators, was the first to employ this "wrinkle," in Game 7 of the 1924 World Series (the game WaJo won in relief in the 12th inning) no less:

"The unheralded Curly Ogden was given the Game 7 start for Washington – it was his only World Series appearance. He struck out a batter and walked one, and then was pulled for George Mogridge. It was later revealed that manager Bucky Harris started righthander Ogden so that the Giants would be locked into their "righthanded" lineup, before he switched to the lefthander Mogridge."

[clydepepper]

Well, they have closers, why not designate openers?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Frank, I believe Stanley "Bucky" Harris, the "Boy Wonder" playing-manager of the 1924 Senators, was the first to employ this "wrinkle," in Game 7 of the 1924 World Series (the game WaJo won in relief in the 12th inning) no less:

"The unheralded Curly Ogden was given the Game 7 start for Washington – it was his only World Series appearance. He struck out a batter and walked one, and then was pulled for George Mogridge. It was later revealed that manager Bucky Harris started righthander Ogden so that the Giants would be locked into their "righthanded" lineup, before he switched to the lefthander Mogridge."

Your wrinkle applies to a single game “false starter” to flip the mound vs a stacked lineup to create an advantage. (Counsell’s ploy today)

The other wrinkle is having a pitcher start consecutive games, which Miley will do on Friday. Your example would be identical if Ogden started Game 8, which of course didn’t exist.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Well, they have closers, why not designate openers?

Makes sense to me.

[triwak]

I do miss the old days, when starters went deep into games, pacing themselves, not showing their best stuff until the third or fourth time through the lineup, while hitters tried to adapt and detect pitcher's tells, etc. That being said, I'm actually intrigued by the use of modern metrics, and all the crazy strategies employed by managers, including the pitching changes, defensive shifts, home runs vs. running games, etc. The rules of The Grand Old Game permit these experiments, and you can still see things never witnessed before! That's why I love it, and will ALWAYS be a fan. And card collector.

[BleedinBlue]

I believe that the single season wins record could eventually be in jeopardy due to a change in starting pitcher usage.

Under Franks original example where Gio Gonzales started 162 games, pitching only 1 inning each start, imagine if the designated “second” of Wade Miley pitches the second inning in all 162 games. Gio would not be eligible to win but Miley would be eligible to win dozens of games over a season. 42 would be well within reach if a team wanted this record to be broken and selectively inserted this “second” in games with a lead after the first inning.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

I believe that the single season wins record could eventually be in jeopardy due to a change in starting pitcher usage.

Under Franks original example where Gio Gonzales started 162 games, pitching only 1 inning each start, imagine if the designated “second” of Wade Miley pitches the second inning in all 162 games. Gio would not be eligible to win but Miley would be eligible to win dozens of games over a season. 42 would be well within reach if a team wanted this record to be broken and selectively inserted this “second” in games with a lead after the first inning.

This is exactly why Chesbro is rolling over in his grave.

However, when the five inning start completely disappears, should there not be an alternative method of determining the winning and losing pitchers.

Obviously the pitchers of record when the winning team takes the lead for the last time would be one way. Thus if Gio’s Brewer team scores 6 runs in the first inning and the Brewers go on to win, Gio would get the win in a one inning start.

Alternatively all pitchers could put a small ball in a hat when they enter the game and after the game the winner and loser could be drawn, sort of a powerball on the diamond.

Or perhaps it’s just a meaningless stat that will be eliminated all together. Of course the WHIPs and BABIPs and WARs will exist in perpetuity.

[Throttlesteer]

How analytics changed America's pastime

[barrysloate]

Starting pitching has changed dramatically for sure. I think the new formula of using a starter for just a couple of innings will succeed only if teams are winning. That's the only measure you can use to evaluate it. Either your team is better as a result or it is worse. If you're losing games and guys are getting hurt, then it will be scrapped.

[glynparson]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...ves/12561.html

[Rickyy]

I guess we won't see a line like Madson Bumgarner's 2014 WS again anytime soon (3 games 2 starts 21 innings, 1 ER, 2 wins (1 CG, 1 SHO) and 1 save.

Ricky Y

[cubman1941]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Another wrinkle today in the future of pitching is presented.

Dodger lineup stacked with right hand batters against the lefty Miley.

Miley walked the first batter and is immediately pulled and replaced with the right handed Woodruff.

Miley will start Game 6.

Remember what I postulated in the original post about back to back starts. Although the scenario is a bit different, I think I deserve a pat on the back.
Even I didn’t expect it to happen so soon.

A little off base but I have not been able to quickly find the answer. At what time does the starting pitcher have to start? Is it when the announcer announces the line-up or when the line-up is handed to the opposing manager? If the latter a team could have a lefty warming up, even throwing on the mound and have the manager have a righty (who has been warming up in the bull -pen) on his line-up that he hands to the opposing manager. Thus a team won't be able to stack their line-up. Just curious?