Were Group 1 Subjects Printed With EPDG Before PD 350 ?

[Luke]

I think when you take all the info into consideration, the only conclusion that makes sense is for EPDG to be either the first of the "350" backs, or the last of the 150s.

The Elite 11 guys shed a lot of light on it. Take Tom Jones for example. It seems that he was printed for the entire EPDG print run (because he is as plentiful as any 150-350 Series pose with EPDG back), but then he was pulled early in the P350 print run. The logical conclusion there is that either the EPDG print run was finished before the P350 print run started, or at least part of the EPDG print run had be run to completion.

Another bit of evidence is that as of now, I have never seen a 150-350 Series EPDG with either "dark ink" or the "washed out" look that some P350, Sov350, SC350, and OMs have.

I have no doubt EPDGs were printed before any other 350 backs.

My theory on 150-350 Old Mills is that they were printed in at least two different runs. There are some poses that can only be found with a clear, precisely registered image (like the 150s), and others that can only be found with a washed out image (like some 350s). This leads me to believe that the two sets of poses were printed at different times. Although, it could just be one long print run where the first set of sheets came out looking crisp like the 150s, and the quality deteriorated as they ran off the subsequent sheets.

In the examples below, Schlei has "dark ink" and Overall is "washed out". You won't find any EPDG that has either characteristic.

[tedzan]

Excuse me as I have disagree with you guys. Empirical evidence indicates that PIEDMONT 350 printing preceded EPDG printing regarding the Elite 11 subjects.

As I have noted several instances in other threads: To date, the sole source of Elite 11 cards has been from the Atlanta, Georgia area. At least 4 original T206
collections from that area have provided Elite 11 cards. I have personally acquired 2 groups of Elite 11 cards from sources in Atlanta.
And, to date, no other location has been the source of these rare cards.

Furthermore, the well known Russell Tobacco card collection (on display at Univ. of Georgia library) is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. Plus......
the Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card.





The Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card exists ONLY with the PIEDMONT 350 back. In fact several of the known 9 examples of this card have been found in original
collections emanating from Georgia.

Given that the fact that Russell's collection did not have a single EPDG version of the Elite 11 subjects, I cannot accept your argument that EPDG printing
preceded the PIEDMONT 350 print run.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RedsFan1941]

keep up the good work pat and luke. great stuff.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Excuse me as I have disagree with you guys. Empirical evidence indicates that PIEDMONT 350 printing preceded EPDG printing regarding the Elite 11 subjects.

As I have noted several instances in other threads: To date, the sole source of Elite 11 cards has been from the Atlanta, Georgia area. At least 4 original T206
collections from that area have provided Elite 11 cards. I have personally acquired 2 groups of Elite 11 cards from sources in Atlanta.
And, to date, no other location has been the source of these rare cards.

Furthermore, the well known Russell Tobacco card collection (on display at Univ. of Georgia library) is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. Plus......
the Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card.





The Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card exists ONLY with the PIEDMONT 350 back. In fact several of the known 9 examples of this card have been found in original
collections emanating from Georgia.

Given that the fact that Russell's collection did not have a single EPDG version of the Elite 11 subjects, I cannot accept your argument that EPDG printing
preceded the PIEDMONT 350 print run.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

That's fine Ted you're entitled to your opinion but I think you're confused
on what I'm proposing in this thread that print group 1 subjects
might have been printed with EPDG backs before they were printed with
PD350 backs. Doyle is a print group 3 subject and I certainly think
he was printed with a PD350 back before he was printed with an EPDG back.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

That's fine Ted you're entitled to your opinion but I think you're confused
on what I'm proposing in this thread that print group 1 subjects
might have been printed with EPDG backs before they were printed with
PD350 backs. Doyle is a print group 3 subject and I certainly think
he was printed with a PD350 back before he was printed with an EPDG back.

Pat

With all due respect......we have discussed this before in another thread. The Joe Doyle card was initially printed early in the 350-only Series print run.
The Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card in Senator Russell's T206 collection in Georgia proves this fact. His collection does not have a corrected Joe Doyle card.

Subsequently, when ALC printed the SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) cards, Joe Doyle was included in this group of 66 cards. However, he retired during
that period and was not continued into the 350-460 Series.

T206resource is mis-leading the hobby by stating Joe Doyle was printed in "print group 3".

But, if you choose to believe that, that's your prerogative. It's obvious to me that I cannot convince you of this matter.

Take care,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

With all due respect......we have discussed this before in another thread. The Joe Doyle card was initially printed early in the 350-only Series print run.The Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card in Senator Russell's T206 collection in Georgia proves this fact. His collection does not have a corrected Joe Doyle card.

Subsequently, when ALC printed the SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) cards, Joe Doyle was included in this group of 66 cards. However, he retired during
that period and was not continued into the 350-460 Series.

T206resource is mis-leading the hobby by stating Joe Doyle was printed in "print group 3".

But, if you choose to believe that, that's your prerogative. It's obvious to me that I cannot convince you of this matter.

Take care,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted,

The Joe Doyle card doesn't relate to what's being discussed in this thread
and I only mentioned it because you brought it up and I completely disagree
with this statement. If he was printed early in the 350 only series he would
have a Forrest Green Sovereign back like the rest of the 350 only subjects
not Apple green.

The thread is open to debate so I will ask you a few questions.

Haven't you stated previously that senator Russell pulled the cards
from packs of Piedmont and Old Mills which were the two brands that he
smoked? If this is true I wouldn't expect him to have any of the
"elite eleven" with EPDG backs or any other subjects with EPDG backs.

If you disagree with the possibility of the 150/350 subjects being printed
with EPDG's before PD350 what's your explanation for the print defect
on Frank Owen that's found on several 150 backs and also on EPDG backs
but no 350 backs or the mark on Tannehill that's found on several 350
backs but no 150 or EPDG backs?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted,

The Joe Doyle card doesn't relate to what's being discussed in this thread
and I only mentioned it because you brought it up and I completely disagree
with this statement. If he was printed early in the 350 only series he would
have a Forrest Green Sovereign back like the rest of the 350 only subjects
not Apple green.

Pat

ALC selected the Joe Doyle card and the other 65 subjects which were printed with the SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) backs just prior to the print runs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350
with frame cards (circa Summer 1910).

ALC planned on continuing to print these subjects into their 460 Series. However, Joe Doyle was sold to Cinci on May 31, 1910. So, his card was eliminated.
The 350 Series (forest green) SOVEREIGN 350 cards were printed prior to the press runs of the apple green cards.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Haven't you stated previously that senator Russell pulled the cards
from packs of Piedmont and Old Mills which were the two brands that he
smoked? If this is true I wouldn't expect him to have any of the
"elite eleven" with EPDG backs or any other subjects with EPDG backs.

Yes, the greater majority of cards in Russell's collection of T206's are PIEDMONT. And, there are about a half a dozen EPDG cards in it.


I have to stop here, as we are going to the Jersey shore for the Holiday weekend.

Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Here's an "elite eleven" example that has the same pattern.

Some Lindaman examples have a spot that looks like he's wearing
an earing all of these examples also have a pink patch in the yellow background.

Lindaman Mark By Ear.jpg

They are found on PD150 and EPDG backs but none of the PD350's
I found have these marks.
Lidaman Mark by Ear EPDG 2.jpgLindaman Mark By Ear EPDG 1.jpg

Lindaman Mark By Ear PD150 1.jpgLindaman Mark By Ear PD150 2.jpg

Lindaman PD350 1.jpg

Lindaman PD350 2.jpg