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#1
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T207 Back Multipliers
Are any T207 collectors able to shed some light on the multiplier I should add to each back? Struggling with valuing the only T207 subject I collect in his different backs. Thanks.
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Need a spreadsheet to help track your set, player run, or collection? Check out Sheets4Collectors on Etsy. https://www.etsy.com/shop/Sheets4Collectors - Hall of Famers Progress: 318/340 (93.53%) - Grover Hartley PC Needs: T207 Anonymous Factory 25 Back, 1914 New York Evening Sun Supplements, 1917 D328 Weil Baking Co., and (possibly) 1917 Merchant's Bakery - Jim Thome PC - Cleveland Indians Franchise Hall of Fame |
#2
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Finding a consistent multiplier for the backs in something like T207 is not easy because it is one of the rarer tobacco sets in comparison with things like T205 and T206.
Also keep in mind that not every subject is on every back. For example, some players have Recruit or Napoleon backs. Other players have Broadleaf and Cycle backs. But those groups don't intermingle. For example, a player with a Recruit back will not also have a Cycle back. There are also the Anonymous and Red Cross backs as well. I believe Anonymous cards can be on players in either of the two groups while Red Cross is limited to those with Broadleaf/Cycle backs. In terms of rarity, Recruit is the easiest while Red Cross is the toughest. Others are somewhere in the middle. Other than Red Cross, Napoleons are maybe the ones I see the least of.
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T201 (50/50) T205 (208/208) T206 (520/520) T207 (200/200) E90-1 (120/121) E90-3 (20/20) E91A/B/C (99/99) C59-61 (149/248) N28/N29 Allen & Ginter (96/100) N162 Goodwin Champions (26/50) N184 Kimball Champions (29/50) 1901-02 Ogden Tabs (1,327/1,560) Complete: E47, E49, E50, E75, E76, E229, K4, N88, N91, R136, T29, T30, T38, T51, T53, T68, T73, T77, T118, T218, T220, T225, W512, W513, W542, W552, W565, Dozens of smaller uncategorized sets www.prewarcollector.com |
#3
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Assuming you're talking about the Broadleaf series? If so, Broadleafs are the easiest and cheapest. Anonymous are tougher, but it doesn't seem like people care much, and they sell for a similar price as the Broadleafs. Cycles are tougher and people really like the design, so they sell for more. How much more is hard to say. Hopefully someone else who has a little better handle on it than I do can jump in and help.
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ThatT206Life.com |
#4
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Just to keep the ball rolling, Recruit factory 240 is more plentiful than Recruit factory 606, probably by a ratio of somewhere between 3 to 1 or perhaps 4 to 1. As far as I can tell this has no or sometimes minimal impact on the pricing of the factory 606 cards.
All other backs I generally ignore. Brian |
#5
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In short, no one really cares, the player on the front either comes with one of the tough back or he doesn't(Anonymous being the only outlier), thus you have to price according to who is on the front. I can recall when Rath and Rasmussen were tough, and Speaker and Saier, and Donln and Downey and so forth, but alas the set collectors are nowhere to be found anymore, so no great price push for them. The Cycle seems to be the only one with a premium of the tougher ones, due to the bright red back.
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#6
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#7
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Leon Luckey |
#8
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__________________
Need a spreadsheet to help track your set, player run, or collection? Check out Sheets4Collectors on Etsy. https://www.etsy.com/shop/Sheets4Collectors - Hall of Famers Progress: 318/340 (93.53%) - Grover Hartley PC Needs: T207 Anonymous Factory 25 Back, 1914 New York Evening Sun Supplements, 1917 D328 Weil Baking Co., and (possibly) 1917 Merchant's Bakery - Jim Thome PC - Cleveland Indians Franchise Hall of Fame |
#9
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#10
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The player I collect (Grover Hartley) is in the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous section. I learned this at National, and appreciate you confirming. Is the Red Cross a guaranteed back for that the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous, or is it more if the subject has a Red Cross, they would also only have those 3?
Your latter point is the correct one. To date, there are only around 15 or so of the Red Cross cards that have been confirmed. I believe all of the known ones found are Broadleaf/Cycle guys. But because so few Red Cross cards are known, it can't really be considered a guaranteed back for those players.
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T201 (50/50) T205 (208/208) T206 (520/520) T207 (200/200) E90-1 (120/121) E90-3 (20/20) E91A/B/C (99/99) C59-61 (149/248) N28/N29 Allen & Ginter (96/100) N162 Goodwin Champions (26/50) N184 Kimball Champions (29/50) 1901-02 Ogden Tabs (1,327/1,560) Complete: E47, E49, E50, E75, E76, E229, K4, N88, N91, R136, T29, T30, T38, T51, T53, T68, T73, T77, T118, T218, T220, T225, W512, W513, W542, W552, W565, Dozens of smaller uncategorized sets www.prewarcollector.com |
#11
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Why are there no T207 set collectors anymore? Of the T205/06/07 trio it's clearly the least popular, but it's still a heck of an interesting set. I'm surprised to hear that.
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#12
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Barry,
There are very few set collectors of most T & E sets in this era, T206 is obviously the most widely collected in some form of set format. In nearly all of the others, the Cobb, Wagner, Johnson and Mathewson are about the only cards that the collectors of today seem to want. T207 having only the Johnson of the above has never been that popular, and now it is even less so. I bet a head count of the board would show less than 5 people pursuing the set, perhaps as few as 3. |
#13
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I agree Barry; I like the set a lot. I think the set has limited appeal to most collectors. This is a set that IMO, is strictly for people who love collecting cards because they love collecting in general and not for people who love collecting because they love sports. There's just not enough star power and the look turns a lot of people off them as well (though I love them). It's also hard to get jazzed up spending thousands of dollars for players like lowdermilk and irvin lewis. Still I'm a little surprised there isn't more interest in the set.
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#14
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Scott and Tyler- I can only think the reason there are so few set collectors is that the price has become prohibitive. Tobacco sets, and even some of the candy sets, are the backbone of the pre-war era, and they were always widely collected. When I see what some of the key T-206 HOFers sell for, I realize most collectors are priced out.
And the charm of the T-207 set is exactly the obscure mix of players. In place of Cobb and Mathewson you get Lew Lowdermilk and Chet Hoff, but that is what always drew collectors to it. The hobby is changing. Last edited by barrysloate; 08-09-2018 at 12:22 PM. |
#15
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I agree. I really like the T207 set, but there are some factors that make it tough for people to collect it. If I had unlimited funds, I'd be working on the set. As it is, I can't really afford to go after the BL class cards, so I am slowly working on Napoleon and Anon Recruit Class poses.
Some of the artwork is breath-taking, and some is just objectively ugly. The Johnson is one of the worst, and looks nothing like him. If the artist that did the Leach or Hooper had also done Johnson, the interest in that card would be ten-fold what it is now. In that same vein, the set doesn't feel that cohesive to me. It's hard to look at Konetchy and Sullivan and feel like they really belong together. Konetchy is incredibly ugly and the Sullivan is one of the best looking T cards ever produced imho.
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ThatT206Life.com |
#16
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Quick side note, these are the 15 Red Cross players (well, 13 since I've never seen the third and fourth cards from the early 1980s find confirmed).
Steve Player Discovered 1 Russell Blackburne 1980s 2 George Weaver 1980s 3 1980s 4 1980s 5 Frank Lange 1980s 6 Ward Miller 1960's 7 Louis Lowdermilk Louisiana Find 8 John Adams Louisiana Find 9 Russell Blackburne Louisiana Find 10 William Cunningham Louisiana Find 11 Otto Miller Louisiana Find 12 Red Nelson Louisiana Find 13 Don Carlos Ragan Louisiana Find 14 George Tyler Louisiana Find 15 Jacques Fournier 2016 Last edited by brass_rat; 08-09-2018 at 09:25 PM. Reason: spelling |
#17
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I'm working on it ... and with 19 cards to go, getting close. I'll say this, though. It wasn't my first choice. Or my second. Or even my third, really. I mostly started T207 not out of any great love for the set as much as just to work on something new.
All of that said, probably about 50 cards in, I really started enjoying the cards and now, I absolutely love them. I honestly wish more people would give them a chance because, like me, I think it would grow on them. But between the look that scares people off and, as Luke said, the rarity on so many, it's very hard to do a set. Even the common Recruit guys aren't all that plentiful. PSA pop reports show them to be almost five times as rare as T205 ... which is already significantly rarer than T206. Some of it, I think, is there just aren't a ton of them around. I went to a relatively large show earlier this year and saw, I don't know, a dozen total between maybe 2-3 dealers?
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T201 (50/50) T205 (208/208) T206 (520/520) T207 (200/200) E90-1 (120/121) E90-3 (20/20) E91A/B/C (99/99) C59-61 (149/248) N28/N29 Allen & Ginter (96/100) N162 Goodwin Champions (26/50) N184 Kimball Champions (29/50) 1901-02 Ogden Tabs (1,327/1,560) Complete: E47, E49, E50, E75, E76, E229, K4, N88, N91, R136, T29, T30, T38, T51, T53, T68, T73, T77, T118, T218, T220, T225, W512, W513, W542, W552, W565, Dozens of smaller uncategorized sets www.prewarcollector.com |
#18
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Shameless plug...
Any Hartleys for sale, let me know.
__________________
Need a spreadsheet to help track your set, player run, or collection? Check out Sheets4Collectors on Etsy. https://www.etsy.com/shop/Sheets4Collectors - Hall of Famers Progress: 318/340 (93.53%) - Grover Hartley PC Needs: T207 Anonymous Factory 25 Back, 1914 New York Evening Sun Supplements, 1917 D328 Weil Baking Co., and (possibly) 1917 Merchant's Bakery - Jim Thome PC - Cleveland Indians Franchise Hall of Fame |
#19
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T207s
Glad to see a T207 post ... I suspect the relative number of these vs ones on T206/5 directly correlates to the number of folks interested, collecting.
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As for relative valuations, I think others have hit it on the head: you can't compare across classes; and Cycle seems to be the only one to see any bump; no one really cares, it seems. Hartley being Broadleaf-class then has 4 backs (BL, Cycle, Anon3, Anon25). All things considered, I'd place him in the easier half of the Broadleaf cards, probably in the top 40 in difficulty, but well below 15. That said - and you see this time and time again in these threads - everyone's experience varies with the Broadleaf class cards. Its just a matter of timing. Quote:
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As for the variance in portrait quality, I'd be interested if some research on the subject might showed that there were at least two separate groups doing the artwork and back text over time. The differences are pretty stark, and you could (likely) split them. The broad split is Broadleaf and Recruit w/Anon 3 vs everything else.
Further, look at the use of color across any team set. Compare all the cards on, say, Pittsburgh, Boston (Amer), Brooklyn ... to others on the same team to see what I mean. Colored (non-brown) team emblems and names on the jerseys are on the Broadleaf cards, and the Recruits that can be also be found w/an Anon3 back... McKechnie, Leifield & Leach look more like the Broadleaf class (Donlin et al) w/Blue 'P' and Pirates in Blue than the do the other Recruits (Miller, Byrne, Ferry, ...) Same with the RedSox - Bradley, Gardner, Henriksen O'Brien and Yerkes do not have an Anon 3 card, all the others do. Not as obvious on some of the other teams, but the case is pretty obvious (Brooklyn's Rucker is the only outlier I'm aware of). Fun stuff, as ever. I hope to finish my (fell-into) goal of completing the Recruit, Broadleaf, Anon and Cycle subsets, but would settle for seeing the list of Napoleons confirmed. At least it would be good to know if any of the variations in the Recruit class have more than one of the variants found with a Napoleon back. |
#20
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T207 sets
I'm a set collector with 2 sets of T207. After I finished my T206 set (of 521), I started on T207 and really love them.
One thing I love about T207 is the good players that don't appear in T206 or in many other sets either. Such as: Rafael Almeida Armando Marsans Joe Wood Harry Hooper Max Carey Bill McKechnie Lefty Tyler Vean Gregg Hank Gowdy Vic Saier Ward Miller Buck Weaver Ivey Wingo Duffy Lewis It's a good challenge trying to find higher grade cards of this set. I also like that all the images of every player seem to be unique to this set. |
#21
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Very much in agreement with all of Ron's points. I finally completed my set after about 5-6 years of effort and it remains my favorite of all pre-war sets. The interesting player selection (a large percentage of the players, including multiple HOF'ers, appear on very few, if any, other tobacco cards...some on no other contemporary cards at all), the challenge in completing the set, the great player write-ups, and the completely unique look and feel of it make it number one in my opinion. I've never really understood the lack of love for the set. Perhaps the relative lack of top-tier HOF'ers or the drab color scheme are turnoffs for some, but I love the design and, as difficult as a bunch of these are, I'm quite thankful that I didn't have to chase a Cobb, Wagner, Mathewson, etc.
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#22
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Oy!
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Absolutely agree with both of your points, Ron and Marc, and good to hear from you - figured some of the other more recent set completers would chime in. Marc, - those of us on love side of '...its love vs hate with this set...' are probably in the minority, but its also number one in my book. Ron, you probably know this better than anyone, but even finding several of these cards (outisde the ones you have listed) at VG/Ex-Ex is a real challenge, much less better than that ... and those are primarily the Recruit class! The fact that they're also (generally) in the "Anon 3" class is no coincidence, I suspect. Always fun to see "new-to-the-hobby" cards and quality cards appear, as they do from time-to-time. Keeps things interesting. -- Mike |
#23
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George Mogridge was a key pitcher for the only Senators team to ever win a World Series. At age 35, his 1924 regular-season record was 16 - 11, which included 13 complete games. In the 1924 WS, Mogridge was the starting and winning pitcher in Game 4. Manager Bucky Harris, "The Boy Wonder," was in a quandry as to whom to start in Game 7, as WaJo had already lost in his two starts. So, Harris started journeyman Curly Ogden in a successful ploy to get John McGraw to start the lineup he used against right-handed pitchers. Ogden pitched to two batters, getting one out, whereupon Harris brought in lefty Mogridge, who pitched the next 4.2 innings, allowing only one earned run. This kept the Senators in the game until they tied the Giants in the 8th inning and won it in the 12th inning with WaJo being the winner in relief.
So, here's my shameless plug. I collect cards of all the 1924 Senators. I am seeking a Mogridge T207 with the Anonymous Factory 3 back - thanks in advance to anyone who can help me. I do have the other three known Mogridge cards which are pictured below:
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo. |
#24
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YES!
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#25
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Mogridge
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Mogridge is (IMO) one of the top 10 in difficulty and you've got some really nice examples. Funny thing, I just picked up the Anon 25 to complete the back run. All my images are on a system that's tanked at the moment or I'd follow suit. Will help if I come across one - best of luck! Mike |
#26
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Mike, thanks for the kind words.
I just took a look at your T207 Napoleon HOFer subset. Very impressive!
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo. |
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