Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Actual stats say you are wrong. Mike Trout is a career .306 hitter. 2 outs RISP .272. Late and close .252.

Barry Bonds .298 career hitter. 2 outs RISP .266. Late and close .275.

I said I doubt MANY players deviate much. I didn't say none did. That does not surprise me about Bonds. It very much surprises me about Trout, the God of WAR.

Are there players whose "clutch" numbers are substantially higher than their BA?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?

Who are we talking about?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Jesus H....he didn't have the stats? Why, because he didn't hit 400 home runs? Clemente said that he purposely put hitting for average above going for power because he felt it would help his team more.

This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

So, tell me again how Clemente wasn't an elite Hall of Famer?

Clemente wasn't an "inner circle" HOFer. As in, naming the five or ten best players of all-time - he ain't on the list. Obviously, he was a great player. No one is denying that. But he also wasn't one of the absolute greatest and isn't in that conversation. If you're not in the conversation, you're not inner circle. That's not an insult. Not everybody gets to sit at the table with Ruth, Mays and Mantle.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Not everybody gets to sit at the table with Ruth, Mays and Mantle.

I am thinking Mantle shouldn't be sitting at that table either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It only makes sense if you are going to be a failure at going for power.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I am thinking Mantle shouldn't be sitting at that table either.

Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

I think it absolutely makes sense, especially looking at the garbage numbers we are seeing around the league as players swing for the fences and set record breaking strike out pacing as they do. Yes, a single to left regularly is better than only 3 and outs with a hr every other game or so. Small ball may be boring to some, but it's a lost art in today's game.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The Orioles took Robinson in 1971 and didn't do them enough good head to head against Clemente in 1971!

The best team doesn’t always win . It did go 7 and the O’s should have won, in my view, that last game at home. A few mistakes cost the home team. We did score more runs in the ‘71 WS, but that doesn’t really count in baseball. Man, the Pirates has some great pitching that series coupled with some unexpected hero’s and then there was Clemente.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

Mantle, like Bonds, drew a phenomenal number of walks.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

I can't disagree more with this sentiment. All you have to do is look around the league today and count the number of "power hitters" who are sitting on averages under 230 to know there's nothing all that great about hitting a home run once in a while.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.

Still better than Daniel Simpson Day's

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by packs

All due respect to Al Kaline but I don't know if I can point to one thing anyone would remember Kaline for. Clemente's death will keep his name on people's minds forever.

Even though I agree, in an effort to avoid neutralizing comments I suggest we all refrain from throwing acid on Al Kaline's legacy.

Brian

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.

How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.

2002 I believe. I would not rank him quite that high myself, but Bill James certainly knows a lot about baseball.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

2002 I believe. I would not rank him quite that high myself, but Bill James certainly knows a lot about baseball.

Bill James also had a center field bias at the time. Four of his top 6 were centerfielders.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Bill James also had a center field bias at the time. Four of his top 6 were centerfielders.

Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

I could live with that list except where the hell is Ted Williams. And Gehrig?

[packs]

How does it make sense to include Barry Bonds? If you want to talk about ability, then I would support Bonds being a part of the discussion. But none of his stats are authentic and I would not include him in any discussions based on stats.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I cannot imagine any serious metric that does not rank Ted in the top TEN of all time?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How does it make sense to include Barry Bonds? If you want to talk about ability, then I would support Bonds being a part of the discussion. But none of his stats are authentic and I would not include him in any discussions based on stats.

If his stats were inflated, how do you know what his true ability was?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I could live with that list except where the hell is Ted Williams. And Gehrig?

Williams = 11

Gehrig = 13

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I cannot imagine any serious metric that does not rank Ted in the top TEN of all time?

Except offensive WAR per plate appearance. Where he ranks 11th.

He is within a scant 1.5 points of being in 8th, ahead of Musial and Collins and Hornsby.

There is a gap of 5 full points from Williams at #11 to Mantle at #12.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Williams = 11

Gehrig = 13

I can't imagine excluding Williams from the top ten hitters of all time. I suppose you could argue Gehrig but I would put him ahead of Mantle and Collins, if not Hornsby.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If his stats were inflated, how do you know what his true ability was?

You don't. But he certainly doesn't belong in a conversation about stats. He may as well have no stats to me. None of them are real.

[btcarfagno]

Hold on.

I was using an older list and oWAR calculations have been tweaked since then.

Updated list shortly..

[btcarfagno]

As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Now that's more like it for Ted and Lou.

[hedgefund96]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

You cannot go wrong with that list...

[tedzan]

Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

what is a "neo-term"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

what is a "neo-term"?

I thought it was very well stated actually.

To Ted's point about generating excitement at the plate, I only saw Mantle very late in his career, but I would make a similar observation about Reggie Jackson, it was always an event with him at the plate.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought it was very well stated actually.

To Ted's point about generating excitement at the plate, I only saw Mantle very late in his career, but I would make a similar observation about Reggie Jackson, it was always an event with him at the plate.

i would maintain that WAR isn't a "new" term, assuming that's what ted meant. i'm just not sure what he means.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

i would maintain that WAR isn't a "new" term

When your memory goes back to Cobb and Wagner it is. Just kidding, Ted.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.

This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.

Funny, I think sort of the opposite, that baseball changes less than other sports. I think if we were transported, say, back to the 20s to watch a game, the similarities would far outweigh any differences. I very much doubt that would be the case with football or basketball.

[aloondilana]

Supposedly there is a Clemente movie coming out next year or year after.
We all know what happened to Jackie Robinson cards after that movie.
Time to get in on Roberto.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.

I have always been of the opinion that Mantle value is based more off of hype and emotion than statistical reality. I still think that this is true, but when a statistic that I put great credence in shows him to be better than I thought, it makes me take notice. I never said he wasn't one.of the all time greats. That is not what I am arguing and is a strawman at best. I merely said that Mantle is not one of the ten best players who ever lived. I stand by that, although I now think he may be closer to number ten than I had first thought.

Still not top ten though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My top 10 non-pitchers non-Bonds non-A Rod would probably be

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Williams
Gehrig
Aaron
Wagner
Musial
Speaker
DiMaggio

Mantle would be right behind these, and Hornsby.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My top 10 non-pitchers non-Bonds non-A Rod would probably be

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Williams
Gehrig
Aaron
Wagner
Musial
Speaker
DiMaggio

Mantle would be right behind these, and Hornsby.

I would put Mantle ahead of Joe D but behind Hornsby and the rest.i also have to put Bonds ahead of him. Not A-Rod.

So to me, not including Negro League players like Gibson or Charleston...which is unfortunate....I would put Mantle as the 11th greatest position player of all time. Also behind at least six or seven pitchers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On Baseball Reference A Rod is 5th in HOF Monitor and 2nd in HOF Standards.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When your memory goes back to Cobb and Wagner it is. Just kidding, Ted.

Peter

Cobb and Wagner ?.....Hey guy, I remember opening up Gypsy Queen packs and finding these gems




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Those two cards have to be on any short list of classic baseball cards.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Those two cards have to be on any short list of classic baseball cards.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Peter

Cobb and Wagner ?.....Hey guy, I remember opening up Gypsy Queen packs and finding these gems




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Smoking at a young age will stunt your growth Ted.

[tedzan]

Come on, Frank....you know I didn't smoke those "weeds". I kept the cards, and sold the cigarettes for 5 cents apiece.
I was an entrepreneur at a very young age back in 1889.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.

I'll always be Joey's #1 fan. Love the guy. He hit an amazing home run over the light pole in RF at Avista as an 18-year old member of the Spokane Indians. I don't think the ball has landed yet. Just an unreal bomb that no one has even come close to matching in my 20 years of attending games.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

Absolutely he's at the table with the top 10 players all-time*.

Again, 7th all-time in OPS+, 6th if you only count retired guys. And he played, by far, the most valuable defensive position of the 6. And was good at it.

* - Yes, I am accounting for pitchers.