NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 07-17-2018, 04:04 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Actual stats say you are wrong. Mike Trout is a career .306 hitter. 2 outs RISP .272. Late and close .252.

Barry Bonds .298 career hitter. 2 outs RISP .266. Late and close .275.
I said I doubt MANY players deviate much. I didn't say none did. That does not surprise me about Bonds. It very much surprises me about Trout, the God of WAR.

Are there players whose "clutch" numbers are substantially higher than their BA?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-17-2018 at 04:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 07-17-2018, 08:53 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?
Who are we talking about?
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 07-17-2018, 09:01 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
Jesus H....he didn't have the stats? Why, because he didn't hit 400 home runs? Clemente said that he purposely put hitting for average above going for power because he felt it would help his team more.
This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
So, tell me again how Clemente wasn't an elite Hall of Famer?
Clemente wasn't an "inner circle" HOFer. As in, naming the five or ten best players of all-time - he ain't on the list. Obviously, he was a great player. No one is denying that. But he also wasn't one of the absolute greatest and isn't in that conversation. If you're not in the conversation, you're not inner circle. That's not an insult. Not everybody gets to sit at the table with Ruth, Mays and Mantle.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 07-17-2018, 09:08 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Not everybody gets to sit at the table with Ruth, Mays and Mantle.
I am thinking Mantle shouldn't be sitting at that table either.
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 07-17-2018, 09:10 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

It only makes sense if you are going to be a failure at going for power.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 07-17-2018, 09:22 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
I am thinking Mantle shouldn't be sitting at that table either.
Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

Last edited by Tabe; 07-17-2018 at 09:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 07-17-2018, 10:58 PM
JustinD's Avatar
JustinD JustinD is offline
Ju$tin D@v3n.por+
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birmingham, Mi
Posts: 2,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.
I think it absolutely makes sense, especially looking at the garbage numbers we are seeing around the league as players swing for the fences and set record breaking strike out pacing as they do. Yes, a single to left regularly is better than only 3 and outs with a hr every other game or so. Small ball may be boring to some, but it's a lost art in today's game.
__________________
- Justin D.


Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander.

Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol.
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:41 AM
Mark70Z's Avatar
Mark70Z Mark70Z is online now
M@rk Comer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,875
Default Orioles/Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
The Orioles took Robinson in 1971 and didn't do them enough good head to head against Clemente in 1971!
The best team doesn’t always win . It did go 7 and the O’s should have won, in my view, that last game at home. A few mistakes cost the home team. We did score more runs in the ‘71 WS, but that doesn’t really count in baseball. Man, the Pirates has some great pitching that series coupled with some unexpected hero’s and then there was Clemente.
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:59 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.
Mantle, like Bonds, drew a phenomenal number of walks.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:20 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.
I can't disagree more with this sentiment. All you have to do is look around the league today and count the number of "power hitters" who are sitting on averages under 230 to know there's nothing all that great about hitting a home run once in a while.

Last edited by packs; 07-18-2018 at 07:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #161  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:49 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-18-2018 at 07:50 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:41 AM
peterose4hof's Avatar
peterose4hof peterose4hof is offline
Chr!$ "Bubba" L@mb
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.
Still better than Daniel Simpson Day's
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:37 AM
brianp-beme's Avatar
brianp-beme brianp-beme is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,532
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
All due respect to Al Kaline but I don't know if I can point to one thing anyone would remember Kaline for. Clemente's death will keep his name on people's minds forever.
Even though I agree, in an effort to avoid neutralizing comments I suggest we all refrain from throwing acid on Al Kaline's legacy.

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:00 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.
You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:02 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.
Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:21 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.
How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:26 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.
2002 I believe. I would not rank him quite that high myself, but Bill James certainly knows a lot about baseball.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:30 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
2002 I believe. I would not rank him quite that high myself, but Bill James certainly knows a lot about baseball.
Bill James also had a center field bias at the time. Four of his top 6 were centerfielders.
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:32 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
Bill James also had a center field bias at the time. Four of his top 6 were centerfielders.
Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:38 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.
True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:42 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12
I could live with that list except where the hell is Ted Williams. And Gehrig?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-18-2018 at 01:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:46 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

How does it make sense to include Barry Bonds? If you want to talk about ability, then I would support Bonds being a part of the discussion. But none of his stats are authentic and I would not include him in any discussions based on stats.
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:47 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

I cannot imagine any serious metric that does not rank Ted in the top TEN of all time?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:48 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
How does it make sense to include Barry Bonds? If you want to talk about ability, then I would support Bonds being a part of the discussion. But none of his stats are authentic and I would not include him in any discussions based on stats.
If his stats were inflated, how do you know what his true ability was?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:50 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I could live with that list except where the hell is Ted Williams. And Gehrig?
Williams = 11

Gehrig = 13
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:51 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I cannot imagine any serious metric that does not rank Ted in the top TEN of all time?
Except offensive WAR per plate appearance. Where he ranks 11th.

He is within a scant 1.5 points of being in 8th, ahead of Musial and Collins and Hornsby.

There is a gap of 5 full points from Williams at #11 to Mantle at #12.

Last edited by btcarfagno; 07-18-2018 at 01:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:51 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
Williams = 11

Gehrig = 13
I can't imagine excluding Williams from the top ten hitters of all time. I suppose you could argue Gehrig but I would put him ahead of Mantle and Collins, if not Hornsby.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:54 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
If his stats were inflated, how do you know what his true ability was?
You don't. But he certainly doesn't belong in a conversation about stats. He may as well have no stats to me. None of them are real.
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:56 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Hold on.

I was using an older list and oWAR calculations have been tweaked since then.

Updated list shortly..
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:17 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.

Last edited by btcarfagno; 07-18-2018 at 02:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #181  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:25 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Now that's more like it for Ted and Lou.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:48 PM
hedgefund96's Avatar
hedgefund96 hedgefund96 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12
You cannot go wrong with that list...
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:33 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:45 PM
RedsFan1941 RedsFan1941 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......
what is a "neo-term"?

Last edited by RedsFan1941; 07-18-2018 at 03:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:16 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsFan1941 View Post
what is a "neo-term"?
I thought it was very well stated actually.

To Ted's point about generating excitement at the plate, I only saw Mantle very late in his career, but I would make a similar observation about Reggie Jackson, it was always an event with him at the plate.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-18-2018 at 04:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:28 PM
RedsFan1941 RedsFan1941 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I thought it was very well stated actually.

To Ted's point about generating excitement at the plate, I only saw Mantle very late in his career, but I would make a similar observation about Reggie Jackson, it was always an event with him at the plate.
i would maintain that WAR isn't a "new" term, assuming that's what ted meant. i'm just not sure what he means.

Last edited by RedsFan1941; 07-18-2018 at 04:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:29 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsFan1941 View Post
i would maintain that WAR isn't a "new" term
When your memory goes back to Cobb and Wagner it is. Just kidding, Ted.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:07 PM
pokerplyr80's Avatar
pokerplyr80 pokerplyr80 is offline
je.sse @rnot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: California
Posts: 3,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Ty Cobb
6. Willie Mays
7. Barry Bonds
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe Jackson
11. Honus Wagner
12. Tris Speaker


WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all.
This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.
__________________
Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others.
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:46 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 View Post
This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.
Funny, I think sort of the opposite, that baseball changes less than other sports. I think if we were transported, say, back to the 20s to watch a game, the similarities would far outweigh any differences. I very much doubt that would be the case with football or basketball.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:29 PM
aloondilana aloondilana is offline
Jo.hn Per.ez
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 191
Default

Supposedly there is a Clemente movie coming out next year or year after.
We all know what happened to Jackie Robinson cards after that movie.
Time to get in on Roberto.
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:42 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 View Post
This is why I couldn't care less about these new stats like WAR. They are just weighted combined averages that can be changed or manipulated to favor one outcome or another. Obviously the great players will still be at or near the top, but they are far from perfect.

As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right.
I have always been of the opinion that Mantle value is based more off of hype and emotion than statistical reality. I still think that this is true, but when a statistic that I put great credence in shows him to be better than I thought, it makes me take notice. I never said he wasn't one.of the all time greats. That is not what I am arguing and is a strawman at best. I merely said that Mantle is not one of the ten best players who ever lived. I stand by that, although I now think he may be closer to number ten than I had first thought.

Still not top ten though.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:51 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

My top 10 non-pitchers non-Bonds non-A Rod would probably be

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Williams
Gehrig
Aaron
Wagner
Musial
Speaker
DiMaggio

Mantle would be right behind these, and Hornsby.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:22 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
My top 10 non-pitchers non-Bonds non-A Rod would probably be

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Williams
Gehrig
Aaron
Wagner
Musial
Speaker
DiMaggio

Mantle would be right behind these, and Hornsby.
I would put Mantle ahead of Joe D but behind Hornsby and the rest.i also have to put Bonds ahead of him. Not A-Rod.

So to me, not including Negro League players like Gibson or Charleston...which is unfortunate....I would put Mantle as the 11th greatest position player of all time. Also behind at least six or seven pitchers.
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:24 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

On Baseball Reference A Rod is 5th in HOF Monitor and 2nd in HOF Standards.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:36 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
When your memory goes back to Cobb and Wagner it is. Just kidding, Ted.

Peter

Cobb and Wagner ?.....Hey guy, I remember opening up Gypsy Queen packs and finding these gems




TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:49 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Those two cards have to be on any short list of classic baseball cards.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:25 PM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 7,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Those two cards have to be on any short list of classic baseball cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Peter

Cobb and Wagner ?.....Hey guy, I remember opening up Gypsy Queen packs and finding these gems




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Smoking at a young age will stunt your growth Ted.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER.

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES


274/1000 Monster Number


Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-24.
Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served.
If you want fries with your order, just speak up.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:56 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Come on, Frank....you know I didn't smoke those "weeds". I kept the cards, and sold the cigarettes for 5 cents apiece.
I was an entrepreneur at a very young age back in 1889.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 07-19-2018, 12:26 AM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.
I'll always be Joey's #1 fan. Love the guy. He hit an amazing home run over the light pole in RF at Avista as an 18-year old member of the Spokane Indians. I don't think the ball has landed yet. Just an unreal bomb that no one has even come close to matching in my 20 years of attending games.
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 07-19-2018, 12:36 AM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.
Absolutely he's at the table with the top 10 players all-time*.

Again, 7th all-time in OPS+, 6th if you only count retired guys. And he played, by far, the most valuable defensive position of the 6. And was good at it.

* - Yes, I am accounting for pitchers.

Last edited by Tabe; 07-19-2018 at 12:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OT sort of--The Post Office is the 9th Circle of Hell Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 18 08-13-2006 09:18 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:36 AM.


ebay GSB