Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[packs]

I have always thought the best of the best and maybe even just the average major leaguer was far more talented in the dead ball era than they are today. So many more people played baseball in the dead ball era. Every single boy in every single town, and you had to be better than all of them. Now you only have to be better than the kids who decide to play baseball, which the news tells you is a smaller and smaller pool every year.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I have always thought the best of the best and maybe even just the average major leaguer was far more talented in the dead ball era than they are today. So many more people played baseball in the dead ball era. Every single boy in every single town, and you had to be better than all of them. Now you only have to be better than the kids who decide to play baseball, which the news tells you is a smaller and smaller pool every year.

But: (1) overall population I would assume has increased by a factor greater than baseball expansion; and (2) blacks and international players now part of talent pool.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But: (1) overall population I would assume has increased by a factor greater than baseball expansion; and (2) blacks and international players now part of talent pool.

Overall population has expanded but participation in baseball is way down. There's no way you'll ever convince me more, or even an equal amount, of people play baseball in 2018 as did in 1918. Baseball was the only major sport. Now there are 4 major sports.

Black and international players were always part of the pool of people who played baseball. International players probably play more baseball than Americans now, which means their talent has elevated itself the same way America's talent would have had to in the dead ball era.

In addition, African American participation in the sport, or lack thereof, has been a trending topic in recent years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Population has increased 3x in the past 100 years. That offsets a lot of declining participation in baseball in terms of the talent pool. Plus we are now drawing on huge numbers of international players who, even if eligible, were not similarly epresented in 1918 or for decades afterwards. And of course none of the black players back then were in the majors.

Personally I think the peak of talent may have been the 50s and 60s, with the influx of black and Latino players and while baseball was still the dominant sport even if others were making inroads. Also pre-expansion.

[PowderedH2O]

Great is great, no matter what era. In 1964, Bob Hayes ran an anchor leg in the Olympics that is still considered by many to be the fastest 100 meters ever run by a human. He did that on a crappy track with 1964 shoes, not the fancy stuff of today. If Bob Hayes were 22 years old now, he would have even BETTER stats than he did in the NFL of his time.

So, when we disparage the old guys, let us keep in mind that they did what they did under completely different conditions. Are they as well conditioned and did they eat as well as today's athletes? Of course not. But, today's American athletes don't have to work a job in the off season. They didn't grow up without electricity. They didn't have to plow fields without a tractor. Why do you think the Latin American baseball players come here and kick butt? Because they grew up with nothing and worked their tails off to get here. Mariano Rivera grew up poor in Panama and helped his dad fishing for sardines. He didn't get any kind of special training or conditioning or diet. He just worked hard to get to the majors. Once he got there, that's when he got better conditions. Don't you think players of the 1920's would do the same if they were playing today?

As far as the Clemente issue, he was a grade A player, and a grade A+ human being. Card collectors are giving him a bigger value on the A+ part. I'm just fine with that.

[skelly]

After Mantle, I would put Clemente second in terms of popularity. Hard to believe he would be ahead of Aaron and Mays, but I truly think he is. Also hard to believe that players like Frank Robinson and Eddie Mathews are just a notch above commons, with the exception of their rookie cards. Clemente seems to be trending up and I think it will stay that way, at least for a while.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by packs

Baseball was the only major sport. Now there are 4 major sports.

I think it's safe to say that at least boxing was in the same class as baseball back then. And at least from anecdotal evidence, a career in baseball was rarely encouraged by parents at the time. In today's world, kids that show an early aptitude for any sport can get put in special leagues, etc. at a young age because their parents push them in that direction.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by packs

I have always thought the best of the best and maybe even just the average major leaguer was far more talented in the dead ball era than they are today. So many more people played baseball in the dead ball era. Every single boy in every single town, and you had to be better than all of them. Now you only have to be better than the kids who decide to play baseball, which the news tells you is a smaller and smaller pool every year.

How many played organized ball and were scouted? How many dropped out of school at 12 to work on the family farm? I read that Carl Yaztrzemski's father was offered a pro contract, but turned it down to stay on the potato farm and help his family during the depression.

[packs]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

How many played organized ball and were scouted? How many dropped out of school at 12 to work on the family farm? I read that Carl Yaztrzemski's father was offered a pro contract, but turned it down to stay on the potato farm and help his family during the depression.

I don't know what your conception of scouting is in 1910, but you don't have to look any further than Babe Ruth, who was playing baseball at an orphanage when he was discovered. Take a look at Baseball Reference's minor league side whenever you've got a chance. Click through any state you want. Tell me how many town teams you see. And those are only the ones in recognized leagues. That's not even getting into company squads and even lesser town teams.