NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:25 PM
Dave Grob Dave Grob is offline
Dave Grob
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: National Capital Region
Posts: 510
Default Jackie Robinson: The chicken or the egg?

In a matter of weeks, a 1947 Jackie Robinson home jersey (Heritage) and Robinson’s contracts (1945 & 1947) (Goldin Auctions) will come to market. The 1947 Robinson home jersey as a pre-auction estimate of $2M+ while the contracts are said to have an insured value in excess of $30M. There obviously is a great delta in perceived value between these two lots. In the end, any number of factors will decide the final prices on each, so the question I will pose is which is the more significant and why?

For me, although I am strongly wedded to uniforms, I believe the uniform is the more significant of the two. I base this on the premise that the jersey has created the value for the contracts. What would the value or significance of the contracts be today if Jackie Robinson had been a flop in uniform in 1947? What if in 1947 Robinson had been a marginal player in uniform or been unable to restrain himself in uniform? Would he even have been back with Brooklyn or in the majors in 1948 to sign yet another contract?

The fact of the matter is the Jackie Robinson legacy and value is one based on performance and conduct, not on permissions. Some might proffer that these are unparalleled sports memorabilia offerings…uniform vs contracts, but are they? Recently the transfer documents (permissions) for Babe Ruth’s move from the Boston Red Sox to New York Yankees sold for $2.3M (Lelands), yet the road jersey he wore in his first season in New York sold for $4.4M. Once again, what is the value and significance of the transfer documents if Ruth had gone to New York and been a bust instead of the Bam?

The above Ruth example was not provided as a gauge of relative value (a Ruth jersey vs a Robinson jersey; Ruth agreements vs Robinson agreements), but rather as probably the most recent and near peer example of my “permissions vs performance” construct.

Dave Grob
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:49 PM
Topnotchsy Topnotchsy is offline
Jeff Lazarus
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,211
Default

I think that for some, the historical significance of the contract (the fact that in some ways it was the step that broke the color barrier) might increase its significance as compared to a jersey for Robinson's rookie season which is incredible, but does not have allure as a singular item.

I am also not sure it is fair to compare him to Ruth since I am pretty certain that the number of jerseys a player wore throughout a season was much higher when Robinson played than when Ruth did (I can't say this for sure, but I know that back in the 20's and 30's they went through very few uniforms... it would seem reasonable that by the late 40's they were using far more.)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:53 PM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is online now
Paul Gruszka aka P Diddy, Cambo, Fluke, Jagr, PG13, Bon Jokey, Paulie Walnuts
Pa.ul Grus.zka
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Over by there
Posts: 4,804
Default

If I could have one......jersey.


He wore it game after game, through the taunts, on the field, stole bases, stole home, got pats on the back, sweat, bled, gave his all, played BASEBALL! Made History!

Contract....."sign here", done. Put it in the file cabinet.



NO BRAINER!

Last edited by Shoeless Moe; 09-07-2017 at 03:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:58 PM
Dave Grob Dave Grob is offline
Dave Grob
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: National Capital Region
Posts: 510
Default Jackie Robinson

Jeff,

Just so we are clear, I was not comparing a Ruth jersey to a Robinson jersey, hence my language of "The above Ruth example was not provided as a gauge of relative value (a Ruth jersey vs a Robinson jersey; Ruth agreements vs Robinson agreements), but rather as probably the most recent and near peer example of my “permissions vs performance” construct".

Dave Grob
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-07-2017, 03:05 PM
Topnotchsy Topnotchsy is offline
Jeff Lazarus
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Grob View Post
Jeff,

Just so we are clear, I was not comparing a Ruth jersey to a Robinson jersey, hence my language of "The above Ruth example was not provided as a gauge of relative value (a Ruth jersey vs a Robinson jersey; Ruth agreements vs Robinson agreements), but rather as probably the most recent and near peer example of my “permissions vs performance” construct".

Dave Grob
Dave,

I definitely hear that and didn't intend to imply otherwise. I was just saying that if we use the Ruth as a starting point for consideration, I would think a Jackie contract carries more allure as a historical item, while a Jackie jersey a bit less due to their likely being more in existence.

That said, for me personally, I think I'd probably prefer the jersey.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-07-2017, 03:46 PM
HolyGrail HolyGrail is offline
David Seid.eman
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 72
Default Jackie Robinson

The photo of Robinson and Rickey is truly iconic.

1) How do folks feel about the $30 million insurance appraisal?

2) Does anyone want to make an argument for preferring to own the contract instead of the jersey?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-07-2017, 03:53 PM
murphusa murphusa is offline
Jim Murphy
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,144
Default

I would rather have a jersey

Last edited by murphusa; 09-07-2017 at 03:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-07-2017, 04:07 PM
vintagesportscollector's Avatar
vintagesportscollector vintagesportscollector is offline
Joe
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphusa View Post
I would rather have a jersey
+1 for me too, I would much rather have the Jersey - however if I knew I could get $30M selling the contract vs $2M for the jersey, I'll take the 30 mil.
__________________
-Joe
www.iyellcornell.com

Last edited by vintagesportscollector; 09-07-2017 at 04:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-07-2017, 04:45 PM
Bestdj777 Bestdj777 is offline
Chris
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 2,567
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyGrail View Post
The photo of Robinson and Rickey is truly iconic.

1) How do folks feel about the $30 million insurance appraisal?

2) Does anyone want to make an argument for preferring to own the contract instead of the jersey?
The contract is important for the impact it had on baseball. It is what broke the color barrier and its significance far exceeds that of the player himself. The jersey's importance is tied to the caliber of the player. If I was a Jackie Robinson collector my money would go to the jersey all day, every day. I'm not, so my preference would be for the more significant hobby-related item.
__________________
Mantle Master Set - as complete as it is going to get
Yankees Game Used Hat Style Run (1923-2017): 57/60 (missing 2008/9 holiday hats & 2017 Players Weekend)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-07-2017, 04:59 PM
71buc's Avatar
71buc 71buc is offline
Mikeknapp
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Great NW
Posts: 2,718
Default

I would prefer the contract. I also think it's sad that either of these American Treasures could wind up in a private collection. The contract belongs in the National Civil Rights Museum and the Jersey in the Smithsonian. Such precious artifacts should belong to us all as citizens.
__________________
1971 Pirates Ticket Quest:
98 of 153 regular season stubs (64%), 14 of 14 1971 ALCS, NLCS , and World Series stubs (100%)

If you have any 1971 Pirate regular season game stubs (home or away games) please let me know what have!

1971 Pirates Game used bats Collection 18/18 (100%)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:01 PM
Dave Grob Dave Grob is offline
Dave Grob
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: National Capital Region
Posts: 510
Default Jackie Robinson

Chris,

Interesting and defendable position that the significance of the contract as an act, trancends the signifcance of the player (any player). Not to put words in your mouth (or strokes on your key board), but that is what I took from your post.

Dave Grob
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:02 PM
Scott Garner's Avatar
Scott Garner Scott Garner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 6,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector View Post
+1 for me too, I would much rather have the Jersey - however if I knew I could get $30M selling the contract vs $2M for the jersey, I'll take the 30 mil.
+1 on the jersey.
BTW, I think someone is smoking hemp re: the $30M contract appraisal
Awesome item, but $30M?

Last edited by Scott Garner; 09-07-2017 at 06:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:04 PM
Cmount76's Avatar
Cmount76 Cmount76 is offline
Michael S.
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New York State
Posts: 501
Default

I'm a collector and I proudly display as much as I have space for - That said, a 1947 Jackie Robinson jersey displays a whole helluva lot cooler than a contract.
__________________
Want List:

1951 Bowman - Mantle
T206 Cobb - Bat Off
M116 Wagner - Blue
E98 - Wagner
1947 Bond Bread - Robinson
1923 Exhibit - Stengel
1936 R314 - Goudey Premium Wide Pens #44
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:23 PM
mcgwirecom's Avatar
mcgwirecom mcgwirecom is offline
R@nda!! H@hn
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hatboro, Pa
Posts: 1,041
Default

I'm a jersey guy. Much better appeal when framed and displayed than a contract. Also if I remember correctly there are up to 3 copies of a players contract. He gets one, the club gets one and they file one with the league.
__________________
My life didn't turn out the way I expected...Roy Hobbs

Baseball's hard. You can love it but it doesn't always love you back. It's like dating a German chick...
Billy Bob Thornton-Bad News Bears

Last edited by mcgwirecom; 09-07-2017 at 05:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:57 PM
HolyGrail HolyGrail is offline
David Seid.eman
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 72
Default Jackie Robinson

Yes, it's hard to think of two items which should belong in a museum more than this jersey and contract.

It's hard to think of anything else in the hobby which holds such historic importance. Nothing comes to my mind.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:01 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,262
Default

The Jersey he played his first game in? Absolutely the Jersey. Otherwise, the contracts all day every day. A rookie Jersey can only be tied to "probably". He probably wore this when he experienced that. Not trying to dismiss the significance of a Jackie Robinson rookie year Jersey by any means. It is a transcendent item.

However.

Without Jackie signing those contracts none of it happens. Without what happened between Rickey and Robinson in that office on the day that it was signed, none of it happens. They may not look as nice on display. But for a decent percentage of our population, those two signed contracts mean more than a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence.

Tom C
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:38 PM
Dave Grob Dave Grob is offline
Dave Grob
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: National Capital Region
Posts: 510
Default Jackie Robinson

Tom,

Thanks for the post on the question. As I read your response, for you the argument for the signifcane of the contracts is based on sequence or the necessary enabling actions that made the wearing of the jersey even possible.

Dave Grob
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:43 PM
Mark's Avatar
Mark Mark is offline
M@rk Lu7z
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: out west
Posts: 1,212
Default

As a collector of game used stuff, I would take the Jersey. But if I were the curator of a museum, I would certainly prefer the contract. As has been said, signing it changed the country.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:31 PM
Bestdj777 Bestdj777 is offline
Chris
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 2,567
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Grob View Post
Chris,

Interesting and defendable position that the significance of the contract as an act, trancends the signifcance of the player (any player). Not to put words in your mouth (or strokes on your key board), but that is what I took from your post.

Dave Grob
Hi Dave,

You said it more eloquently than me--that's what I get for typing while balancing a fussy baby--but definitely what I meant. Either way, it will be cool to see the results.

Chris
__________________
Mantle Master Set - as complete as it is going to get
Yankees Game Used Hat Style Run (1923-2017): 57/60 (missing 2008/9 holiday hats & 2017 Players Weekend)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-07-2017, 08:19 PM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is online now
Paul Gruszka aka P Diddy, Cambo, Fluke, Jagr, PG13, Bon Jokey, Paulie Walnuts
Pa.ul Grus.zka
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Over by there
Posts: 4,804
Default

Plus you can wear the jersey when playing softball with your friends or to a Party
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:42 PM
Topnotchsy Topnotchsy is offline
Jeff Lazarus
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe View Post
Plus you can wear the jersey when playing softball with your friends or to a Party
True, but you can take notes in the margins of the contract.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:57 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,262
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Grob View Post
Tom,

Thanks for the post on the question. As I read your response, for you the argument for the signifcane of the contracts is based on sequence or the necessary enabling actions that made the wearing of the jersey even possible.

Dave Grob
In this case, yes.

1932 Bill Dickey. Contract or Jersey? Jersey.

1947 Ted Williams. Contract or Jersey? Jersey.

1955 Roberto Clemente. Contract or Jersey? Jersey.

THESE Robinson contracts or THAT Robinson jersey? To me it's not close.

Tom C
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-10-2017, 05:40 PM
Mark70Z's Avatar
Mark70Z Mark70Z is offline
M@rk Comer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,956
Default Jackie Jersey or Contract

In almost every case I'd choose the GU jersey, but with Robinson signing and breaking the color barrier, in this case, and changing baseball and bringing a change to civil rights, I'd have to go with the contract. Man, every baseball fan has seen the pictures of Branch Rickey and Jackie Robinson signing the contract and the smiles on their faces. Both very, very cool, but the contract would be my pick.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-10-2017, 05:52 PM
MrSeven's Avatar
MrSeven MrSeven is offline
Brandon V.
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 203
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe View Post
Plus you can wear the jersey when playing softball with your friends or to a Party
Had to remind me of that scene from Seinfeld where Steinbrenner wears Gehrig's pants around the office.

Last edited by MrSeven; 09-10-2017 at 05:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-10-2017, 07:02 PM
irv's Avatar
irv irv is offline
D@le Irv*n
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 6,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark70Z View Post
In almost every case I'd choose the GU jersey, but with Robinson signing and breaking the color barrier, in this case, and changing baseball and bringing a change to civil rights, I'd have to go with the contract. Man, every baseball fan has seen the pictures of Branch Rickey and Jackie Robinson signing the contract and the smiles on their faces. Both very, very cool, but the contract would be my pick.
I agree a 100%. The contract, and it's significance, far outweighs the Jersey in this case.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-09-2017, 02:39 PM
botn botn is offline
Greg Schwartz
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,219
Default

I am a card guy but is it at all remarkable to those of you who deal/collect memorabilia that all of this rookie era Roby memorabilia came to auction at the same time? Goldin with the contracts, Lelands with the cap, Heritage with the jersey and Hunt has a rookie era glove. All of these items had to have been consigned at the same time to the various houses based on the auction endings. Though outside this timeline, last year Heritage had the 1947 bat as well that sold in late 2016. Hate to be a skeptic...

Thanks,
Greg
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB: 1955 Exhibits Post Card Back Jackie Robinson and 1950 R423 Jackie Robinson CharleyBrown 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 1 03-22-2016 11:15 PM
Jackie Robinson Signed GPC "Best Wishes Jackie Robinson" w/Full PSA/DNA - SOLD canjond Autographs & Game Used B/S/T 8 09-23-2012 11:44 PM
1953 Topps Lot (78 cards): 2 Jackie Robinson's / Campy $390 *Another Jackie added* sycks22 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 14 11-01-2011 08:47 PM
WTB: 1950 R423 Jackie Robinson / Strip with Jackie Robinson CharleyBrown 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 0 09-15-2011 03:53 PM
WTB 1979 Family Fun Centers KGB Chicken card (San Diego Chicken) Archive 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 1 03-21-2009 06:10 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:14 PM.


ebay GSB