1949 Jackies on Memory Lane

[rats60]

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

I don't understand the regional label for the Bond Bread cards. They were distributed in Montreal, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, St. Louis, NYC, and surrounding suburbs with a moderately sized African American population. Clearly they did not have the production numbers of Bowman or Leaf, but from rough estimates, at least 1 million portrait-facsimile cards were distributed in 1947.

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

Originally Posted by rats60

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

Maybe that's a Beckett guide "requirement" but I don't think otherwise there is any consensus that national distribution is necessary to call a card a rookie. Lots of discussions here suggest many guys think otherwise.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe that's a Beckett guide "requirement" but I don't think otherwise there is any consensus that national distribution is necessary to call a card a rookie. Lots of discussions here suggest many guys think otherwise.

It has been since the 70s when people started recognizing rookie cards. I know many here collect prewar cards and have adopted various other definitions to fit what they collect. Not having national distribution defeats the purpose of rookie cards in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

It has been since the 70s when people started recognizing rookie cards. I know many here collect prewar cards and have adopted various other definitions to fit what they collect. Not having national distribution defeats the purpose of rookie cards in my opinion.

It's a legitimate point of view, but not a consensus one.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a legitimate point of view, but not a consensus one.

Only when it comes to older releases. What regional is being hyped as Aaron Judge's RC? Check sold listings on ebay. Highest prices, recent sold, it's mostly Topps with a few Panini, no regional issues. The last 35+ years I have never seen a current regional set taken seriously as a rookie card.

Originally Posted by rats60

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

You'll have to show me that in the official rulebook of collecting because I'm not aware any such consensus, although I do respect that point of view. In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1914 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1915 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC.

Not to split hairs, but I think that most collectors consider Ruth's 1914 Baltimore News card his pre-rookie since it was issued when he was in the Minor Leagues. Same goes for DiMaggio's 1934 Zeenut card.

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Not to split hairs, but I think that most collectors consider Ruth's 1914 Baltimore News card his pre-rookie since it was issued when he was in the Minor Leagues. Same goes for DiMaggio's 1934 Zeenut card.

Or XRC as Beckett use to refer to them

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Or XRC as Beckett use to refer to them

As applied to major league nationally distributed sets like the Fleer Update Clemens, and Topps Traded Bonds, that was really stupid, in my opinion. And of course the flip side was they were calling second year cards RCs.

[WWG]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

You'll have to show me that in the official rulebook of collecting because I'm not aware any such consensus, although I do respect that point of view. In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1915 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC.

1915 Sporting News?

Originally Posted by WWG

1915 Sporting News?

Yeah, unless you own the Baltimore News

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by WWG

1915 Sporting News?

1914 Baltimore News

1916 M101-5/4 Felix Mendolsohn/Sporting News

[WWG]

Originally Posted by baseball rarities

1914 baltimore news

1916 m101-5/4 felix mendolsohn/sporting news

1915/16 m101-5 sporting news

1915-m101-5-sporting-news-babe-ruth-57125.jpg

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by rats60

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

No such "requirement" exists now--that's early Beckett/dark ages hobby thinking. In the days of the internet and pervasive auction house offerings, regional versus national offerings has been trending enormously towards and will ultimately be a distinction without any significant difference.

Happy collecting,

Larry

[CharleyBrown]

Originally Posted by rats60

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

[BeanTown]

Pre Rookie

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

So um, yeah. The 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Portrait is his true RC as far as I'm concerned. Others may disagree and that's fine. Thanks for sharing this knowledge Shaun.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

This thread has been great. I didn't know much about the 47 Bond Bread issue. It looks like the portrait was issued along with 12 other cards in a sub set? There also seems to be two different Jackie cards in the regular 1947 set (one with clipped corners and one without)? Interested to know why some consider the white border portrait his RC and not the others issued in the sub set or the regular portrait card in the set?

edited to add - I'm wondering if the large number of Jackie cards in this set and sub set has added to lack of demand and depression on pricing. Or is this card(s) ready to see an Exhibit Gehrig take off?

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

This thread has been great. I didn't know much about the 47 Bond Bread issue. It looks like the portrait was issued along with 12 other cards in a sub set? There also seems to be two different Jackie cards in the regular 1947 set (one with clipped corners and one without)? Interested to know why some consider the white border portrait his RC and not the others issued in the sub set or the regular portrait card in the set?

edited to add - I'm wondering if the large number of Jackie cards in this set and sub set has added to lack of demand and depression on pricing. Or is this card ready to see an Exhibit Gehrig take off?

I should probably defer to Shaun because I know he's done extensive research and is an expert on the set, but I believe it was confirmed (by Shaun or possibly Ted Z...I can't remember) via advertising from the period that the Portrait with Facsimile Auto (white bordered card) was a promotional card distributed to retailers and that's why there were potentially more of those cards in existence and that survived. This is reflected in the population reports, with the number of Portrait w/ facsimile graded cards far exceeding the other 12 cards in the white bordered subset. That said there are only just over 100 graded Portrait w/ facsimile auto cards between SGC/PSA. Other cards in the subset are extremely rare (less than 15 graded in some cases and depending on the pose).

[CharleyBrown]

The Bond Bread portrait-facsimile from the set of 13 (white borders) was distributed both in stores (for free), and in promo packages with 2 slices of bread during the summer of 1947 (June-July). The exact date of the clipped corners BB card was either the Spring or Fall of 1947. The Old Gold Kneeling in Dugout card was issued in September of 1947.

Regarding the set of 13 - there are 3 backs which help to clear the release date of each. The first card issued was the portrait-facsimile sig. Here's that card:



The next batch of 6 came out between Fall of 1947 and late Spring / early Summer of 1948.

Here's an example of one of those 6 cards:



The last batch of 6 cards came out late Summer of 1949. Here's an example of the back from that batch:



Please forgive my scan quality. I'll be investing in a top quality scanner in the fall and will update them.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Shaun thanks for providing that info. When did this issue get released?

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Shaun thanks for providing that info. When did this issue get released?

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...1947 Brooklyn Dodgers Team Issue Photo Pack....this picture was used a lot ...

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