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#151
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Peter, I'm going to concede the argument because really I don't care. I think it was dishonest and unethical and I hope the buyers involved all receive restitution. At least the matter was brought to everyone's attention and people know about it. But really, to me, it's not worth discussing anymore. I have much better things to do on a Friday evening. Have a great night
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#152
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#153
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I definitely understand the argument being made, and have no legal background, but I do see a major difference in your analogy. You asked prior to consummating the transaction and could have changed your mind. This opportunity to rescind was not present in the frankencard deal. Mark
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You got any of them n series non sport and boxing in there? |
#154
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I rarely post but this discussions worthy of weighing in.
Can people modify items produced by companies with little fear of criminal or civil action brought against them ? Of course. Its done all the time. Can you take a product that has copyrights ( which EVERY Topps produced item does- check the USPTO website) and modify it ??? YES you may. Its done all the time . Can you take the product you modify and then go online and either misrepresent that product as being "original", or try and sell it without disclosure of said modifications ? Um- no. Depending on the level of deceit we may be talking a tort ( a "civil" action) where values are relatively low and usually get assigned to small claims, or in the case of folks like John Rogers/Doug Allen/Bill Mastro actions worthy of criminal prosecution. Depending on the length, level, and severity of this persons actions he's looking at either time in small claims should he not make restitution and people care to come after him-- or if he's been stupid enough to take it up a few levels and bring the average transaction above 2500 - he's going to see someone take him to criminal court. As far as this guys being ashamed- dude shut up. Your a serial liar, a serial fraudster, and need to stop with the excuse offerings. Your not convincing anyone of your innocence. Once or twice- OK. Multiple times over extended years ? Sorry - that's a pattern of behavior that's not likely just happening in baseball cards. Its doubtful anyone will forgive and very doubtful they'll forget anytime soon. Best thing Leon can do is make sure your info is properly disseminated to afflicted parties. My opinion-- Jeff |
#155
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The two that I purchased were Karger & Ewing with Piedmont 350 backs, so I think you are safe with the Ganley. Jantz Last edited by Jantz; 08-11-2017 at 08:51 PM. Reason: adjusted post |
#156
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#157
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This is just pure and simple fraud and this scum should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. This type of act is what undermines people confidence in the hobby and i dont care if he apologized with simple fact he ripped people off.
Last edited by esd10; 08-12-2017 at 06:39 AM. |
#158
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They'd sue for the profits realized of course. .
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. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#159
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Question
Sorry if I missed it, but where exactly were the new Topps "holders" obtained from?
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#160
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Also
One more thing, obviously this guy messed up big-time. I would be much more forgiving and understanding if he would truly apologize and also provide an explanation of the scope of all that was involved so we would have some sort of idea if this was nothing to worry about or a massive volume.
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#161
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The law is more concerned with ISIS using EBay to send money than some random guy scamming people out of a few dollars on t206s.
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He has totally undermined the entire set though. If someone was building the set, they now have to realize their entire set is based on a lie.
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#163
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What a disgrace, this guy low. I guess could see a crook trying to rob a bank to score a million bucks, but to destroy a set of cards, to tarnish many peoples collections for a few dollars each card sold..... shameful. Im not a t206 collector, but forgive & forget? Thats not in my vocabulary
__________________
Successful transactions with: Drumback, Mart8081, Obcmac, Tonyo, markf31, gnaz01, rainier2004, EASE, Bobsbats, Craig M, TistaT202, Seiklis, Kenny Cole, T's please, Vic, marcdelpercio, poorlydrawncat, brianp-beme, mybuddyinc, Glchen, chernieto , old-baseball , Donscards, Centauri, AddieJoss, T2069bk,206fix, joe v, smokelessjoe, eggoman, botn, canjond Looking for T205's or anything Babe Ruth...email or PM me if you have any to sell. |
#164
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By generic I mean no identifier as to what's in it. |
#165
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As for the issue of not making much on a fraud and why would someone do that. People like to get the 'one over' on people. Makes them feel smart and they enjoy the challenge. Its not aways about money However he probably sold cards to pay his gas money to and from AA and then to ABC.. |
#166
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I can't believe any collector is defending this guy or his activities. This group pillories auctioneers for charging a few extra dollars for shipping and has vicious wishes for anyone who soaks a card to improve its appearance but has to debate this turd's activities???? This is fraud, as clear as it gets. By Larry's own admission he did it several dozen times, took a cheap T206 and a cheap Topps holder, put them together, listed them for sale on eBay as part of the Topps T206 buy-back issue, and made a profit by misleading bidders about what they were getting. Collectors value the Topps promotion more than the raw cards: the fact that buyers paid a premium over the value of a crappy T206 to get these Frankenstein items, proves it. I don't see any gray area here.
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Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 08-13-2017 at 08:11 AM. |
#167
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The only value I see is the T206 inside the generic holder. If Topps had a master list available with the names and quantity of each T206 they inserted, and the frames were marked accordingly, you might then have an item with a perceived value above the inserted T206 value. |
#168
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-13-2017 at 08:57 AM. |
#169
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Agree
Peter,
I agree that some people do value the Topps 206 buy back above the inserted T206 value. Leon has provided the members of the board with proof of Larry's scam, and harm to this issue by taking his own time to work the spreadsheet and then provide it. I hope those affected will be made right. I also hope Topps takes needed steps to protect and document future buy back issues to prevent the fraud attached to this issue. |
#170
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How could you undermine a set if Topps was not inserting a complete set of T206's in the packs? There would be no set to complete unless Topps said there were a certain number of cards to collect and each was numbered. If Topps acquired several thousand Doc White or Bunk Congalton cards but only a few Pete Cassidy or William Nattress cards how could they possibly create a set for collectors to work on? They were marketing these so that the pre-war collectors would spend their money with Topps. Merely a marketing ploy. It cannot be all stick and no carrot if you are trying to separate people from their money.
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'Integrity is what you do when no one is looking' "The man who can keep a secret may be wise, but he is not half as wise as the man with no secrets to keep” |
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I wonder how Topps would feel if they knew about it.
How many cards are known to have been inserted into the holders and sold? What is the ebay handle of the seller? Sadly, it seems par for the course for this hobby. Did this make it to Hauls of Shame yet?
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fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#172
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Unlike Tiffany's, Coach, Michael Kors etc... Topps doesn't seem to give a crap about protecting their properties on ebay. there are literally THOUSANDS of counterfeit Topps cards being sold as reprints at the very least, many being represented as the real deal. If Topps would make a stink about this like the aforementioned companies it would clean up a LOT of crap very quickly. Try and list a counterfeit handbag and see how fast you get shut down.
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Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
#173
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Oddly enough the OP (and who knows how many others) may have actually expanded the market. There is no difference to his cards when compared to the original inserts. |
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Man, this thread brings back memories. I have mentioned it in this board a few times before but will repeat it here:
I was Baseball Editor at Topps in 2001/2 and was the editor of the first two Topps206 products. For the first series in 2002, I had the pleasure of opening a package from Kit Young that contained around 250 original t206 cards (and a couple of t205s). My immediate job was to alphabetize them, and because my desk was covered in slides and crap, I went into an empty area of the office, an open carpet space where a couple of cubicles had been removed, and laid these out to sort by first letter of last name on front. Coincidentally, that was one of the few days that Cy Berger was on our floor (he was pretty much retired then and wasn't around Whitehall Street very much, at least not in our floor). But he walked by and saw me - a 27-year-old sitting on the floor sorting old cards - and he smiled form ear and ear and said something like "now that really takes me back." It was a pretty cool moment. But I digress. I have frustratingly little information beyond the anecdote. I was not (and am not) anything close to knowlegable in t206 cards beyond being able to identify them (and separate out the couple of t205s mentioned above - which I believe got mixed back in by somebody later down the line who didn't know or possibly didn't care about the difference). I did know then about what is still my passion, which is HOFers, and I can tell you that there were not many. Honestly, I think there were no more than five. I vividly recall a Walter Johnson that the little devil and angel on my shoulder argued about for a while (the angel won - the card went into the product and not my pocket). But easily 95%+ of the cards I funneled into the product were no-name players (edited to add: no-names to me, I should say; there could well have been rarities in there, and I never even looked at the backs, a fact that I imagine kills many of you with your amazing passions for this set). Topps definitely did not track these or keep a spread sheet (that would have been my domain and I was never tasked with it). Whether these cards were 'vetted' for things like cleaning and trimming would be a question for Kit Young (i honestly don't know, either about his reputation for that or for Topps' requirements for same). I can verify what is already known: pretty much every name on the spreadsheet Leon showed early in the thread was NOT put into the set by Topps, at least not into series 1. I think, but am not certain, that this shipment was the totality of cards put into series 1, and while I set the checklist and chose photos for series 2, I did no such sorting of purchased cards for that series or the subsequent series 3. I believe original tobacco cards were put into all three series, but at a significantly lower rate in series 2 & 3 than in 1, as my unreliable memory is telling me that 'buybacks' fell every four boxes or so for series 1, but more like every 10-12 boxes for series 2. Honestly, many others here know more about that than I do, as I was living in Europe by the time the second series came out. So, I offer little concrete information. I myself owned one of these that I pulled from the box Topps gave me at release, a no-namer, which I sold on eBay maybe 6-7 years ago. I think it sucks what this guy did to a cool item, but little in this hobby surprises me anymore. Feel free to ask me any questions, but I doubt I'll have satisfactory or concrete answers.
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My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all Last edited by mighty bombjack; 08-14-2017 at 01:19 AM. |
#175
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It seems the guy just bought a bunch of the 99-cent autographs and 'relic' cards that were included in the set, which were framed in the same frames (stuff like a Cristian Guzman bat sliver card or Jorge Julio autograph, practically free on eBay these days). He cut those open, threw away the card, and replaced it with a t206, somehow replacing the plastic cover (which can't be that hard to do, really).
__________________
My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all Last edited by mighty bombjack; 08-14-2017 at 01:13 AM. |
#176
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#177
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All it takes is a little research to find the answer to some of the questions asked and debunk some of the statements being made.
He would be using the cheap autograph cards because the game used have holes where the bat chip and uniform swatch are. img337.jpg These are a couple of his recent purchases. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2564 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-Topps-2...p2047675.l2557 Quote:
There is a big difference to me and I'm sure any of the people who purchased them from him. Here's a view of the side of one inserted by Topps and one Larry inserted. A Engle.jpg A Larry's card.jpg and I'm sure Topps didn't do this to any of their cards. Willis(Throwing).jpg I imagine Topps wouldn't be very happy if they saw this feedback either. Brown, G. (Wash) Feedback - Copy.jpg |
#178
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My mistake in earlier identifying a cheap game used card rather than an autograph card as the source of the frames for the frankencards. I did not appreciate the difference.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#179
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I forgot that the GU cards had that little hole allowing you to touch the material. Yes, it would seem he used autograph cards. I assumed that he somehow destroyed the original plastic cover and replaced it, but it makes sense that he removed and replaced the original.
__________________
My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all |
#180
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Im not sure that Topps would care about the "trimmed" feedback, as they made no promises about condition, only that original cards were used. Kit Young would know more about that.
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My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all |
#181
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#182
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Do you know if Topps has a copyright on these? Why no copyright notice? |
#183
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I think you've hit the key to the legality of this.
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My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all Last edited by mighty bombjack; 08-14-2017 at 08:52 PM. |
#184
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Whether or not Topps copyrighted the holder is really besides the point here.
OP: I took cards submitted in Topps packs, that were intended to and did interest people in buying Topps cards, and made hidden changes to trick customers into thinking they were buying the original inserts, for my own economic gain. Response: The inserts didn't contain a copyright mark. You're good.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 Last edited by T206Collector; 08-15-2017 at 06:34 AM. |
#185
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It's fraud. An open and shut case of fraud. Who gives a damn about copyright?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-15-2017 at 07:05 AM. |
#186
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Copyright only means something if i was going to sell my own holders that look and resemble the style of the ones with t206 cards but everyone knows that they arent from topps...there could be an argument from topps that i couldnt do that.. When you are sellling something alleging they are topps holder t206s and they aren't thats fraud...
Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 08-15-2017 at 07:13 AM. |
#187
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It's exactly the point here. You're arguing the ethicality of it. You're right! You win! Nobody is disputing that. I'm arguing the legality of it, and you couldn't be any more wrong. And I'm not arguing in a way to defend Larry. My point (which you and others have conveniently and deliberately twisted) was in response to whether or not Larry could face criminal action. It's my belief that he couldn't. There are certainly other consequences like being publically shamed, losing respect and trust in the hobby world, being banned from here, etc. But, as I said earlier, I'm finished discussing it. I simply wanted to know if the cards were copyrighted. I think we got the correct answer.
Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 08-15-2017 at 07:15 AM. |
#188
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[QUOTE=vintagetoppsguy;1690847][QUOTE=T206Collector;1690836]Whether or not Topps copyrighted the holder is really besides the point here.
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-15-2017 at 07:17 AM. |
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 08-15-2017 at 07:21 AM. |
#190
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They don't know shit and neither do I or Kenny or Paul or Adam or anyone I am leaving out to whom I apologize. David knows the law much better than we do.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#191
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The point of my post was on the legality of the conduct -- which is in violation of several laws, state and federal, as well as criminal and civil... just maybe not copyright law.
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Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#192
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Are those things illegal? If the answer is no, are they automatically "good"?
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My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all |
#193
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Everyone knows attorneys are never wrong (double eye roll) |
#194
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Maybe next you can argue the earth is flat. For all I can tell you might believe it.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-15-2017 at 07:59 AM. |
#195
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-15-2017 at 08:01 AM. |
#196
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So, simple question: It is not illegal to take the graphite end of a pencil and write on a t206 card (though many here might like it to be) and then list that on eBay without mention (because the writing would be pretty obvious). But to take the eraser end of the pencil to one that previously marks on it and list it on eBay without mention is punishable by law?
__________________
My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all |
#197
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#198
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ETA: subject to Peter's caveat. If the buyer relies on any representation that the card is unaltered and that factors into the decision to purchase, or the price, then it is fraud.
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Last edited by Bliggity; 08-15-2017 at 08:20 AM. |
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Keep in mind a lot of this is theoretical discussion . I am not going to get arrested for going 56 in a 55 MPH zone. Larry Harris is not going to get prosecuted here, the authorities have better things to do. And so on. But is what he did illegal, and could he be prosecuted? Absolutely.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-15-2017 at 08:26 AM. |
#200
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None of us believes that about the OP's intent, of course, but I think this is a pretty gray area as well in that the Topps206 holder is not too far differentiated from a generic topholder (seems closer to that than to a slab, at least). I don't know how easy it is to remove and replace the cover. Sorry if I'm annoying anyone here. I'm enjoying the back and forth quite a bit.
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My Hall of Fame autograph collection http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/f...NFT/?start=all |
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