Ashamed - Topps T206 Buy Back Fraud

[7nohitter]

So is this rube being charged and prosecuted?

[jb217676]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240701

Go to post #6, they all look sliced and diced to me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

So is this rube being charged and prosecuted?

Even though I have been involved I am not sure if any punitive situations will occur. My main goals are to help people get reimbursed for bad items and try to make sure the perpetrator quits doing what they are doing. I am not sure the dollar amounts justify a ton of authorities but anyone is always free to do anything they want to.
So, In the meantime Larry can be reached at -
lharri3600@gmail.com

.....I think he will happily accept a return provided the card is returned first. I would strongly recommend signature confirmation because of the nature of all of this. Please PM me with any specific issues and I will try to help best I can...Happy collecting.

.

[bobbyw8469]

Due to the nature and extent of the scam, I would be leery sending him anything, even WITH signature confirmation. He obviously isn't fearful of authorities and what not. What is to stop him from collecting returned cards and reselling them again? He is obviously money hungry.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

So is this rube being charged and prosecuted?

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

[7nohitter]

Hmmmm, definitely interesting, David!

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

That is an interesting question, but I think it's important to separate out the two different issues here.

The first question is whether there was any sort of copyright or trademark infringement. I'm not an expert in that area, but since Topps may not have a copyright or trademark on the buy back holder, I can see why that may create some gray area in this particular situation.

However, as to the question of whether this violates any criminal laws, I would still say yes. Criminal liability usually attaches where there is an intent to defraud. Here, I think there was pretty clearly an intent to defraud based on the way he packaged the cards. He was clearly trying to deceive the purchasers. I believe that would come within most state and federal fraud-related statutes.

[Leon]

Forget all of the copyright stuff as it could be illegal or could not be..who knows?

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

If anyone doesn't want to send a card back to Larry, with Signature confirmation for a refund, which is crazy as there is no way in heck Larry is not going to make it right at this point, then I will be a middle person to send the card to. Once it gets to me, I will make sure the refund is done and the card gets to Larry.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

Yup.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not arguing with you, or defending Larry, but it is what its purported to be. It's a T206 card. It makes no mention of a specific card or grade - it's just as the Topps box says - a "Genuine T206 Card." Again, illegal? I'm not sure. Unethical? Very much so.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not arguing with you, or defending Larry, but it is what its purported to be. It's a T206 card. It makes no mention of a specific card or grade - it's just as the Topps box says - a "Genuine T206 Card." Again, illegal? I'm not sure. Unethical? Very much so.

In the literal sense, sure.

It does beg the question why I may pay more for a card or group of memorabilia that may be framed and presented nicely as opposed to one just in a slab, and why that may be different than being misled about a buyback or not? After all, this is just an old card presented nicely, right?

It's like one of those tricky mind games you see on NatGeo Network where they say A and B and never say C but by human nature your mind connects the dots and says C, even though it's not actually C at all.

This dude is a scumbag. Maybe you can serve as a character reference for him in the future, not because you want to defend him, but to explain potaytoze versus pahtahtoze. He knew exactly what he was doing.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not arguing with you, or defending Larry, but it is what its purported to be. It's a T206 card. It makes no mention of a specific card or grade - it's just as the Topps box says - a "Genuine T206 Card." Again, illegal? I'm not sure. Unethical? Very much so.

Here's the description on the eBay auctions from the OP/seller:

"1909-11 Topps Buyback Bobby Wallace HOF Piedmont 350 back.

I just acquired a huge lot of Topps Buybacks with Hall of Famers, Southern Leaguers, and tougher backs. These will be listed in the near future. "

It is a representation that it is a Topps product, which it isn't.