Josh Gibson photo from RMY

[Shoeless Moe]

well now I know who won it.

https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=26944


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Josh-Gibson-...MAAOSwzoRZgAHP

[Jason19th]

I just don't get it. Why would you post something for twice what you paid for it on a well publicized auction that draws many of the major negro league buyers. Is it a serious attempt at sale or just an online eBay museum

[RedsFan1941]

according to a few people on this forum, people regret not placing another bid in the first auction, so they're willing to pay a 50 percent markup a week later. I guess.

[Jason19th]

Actually it would be a 100% increase

[RedsFan1941]

Wasn't referring to that postcard in particular, but I suppose that if you're willing to pay a 50 percent markup within a week, what's 100?

[RedsFan1941]

one of the sources I'm citing

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...8&postcount=42

[71buc]

I live in Puyallup things are more expensive in Mercer island.

[BeanTown]

Maybe there are different buyers on eBay than RMY. I'm sure the owner might be flexible on his price. I've seen type 1 photos marked up well over 100 percent recently on eBay which were recently won from another auction house.

[Dewey]

I've seen $40 RMY sales on ebay for $750. Not 80. Not 120. 750.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Keep in mind, this is a very small photo, I believe the RMY price realized was way above expectations. Personally, I don't believe the buyer, now seller, will be able to recoup their original investment.

[pherbener]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

one of the sources I'm citing

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...8&postcount=42

I do think it's different with photos. The source you're citing is regarding card purchases. They have a more rigid price structure these days thanks to VCP etc. than photos. A year or two ago, I bought a Greene DiMaggio/ Williams Photo for $250 from a major auction house, sold it a week later for $500 only to see a similar but cropped version sell for $2750 in Christies!
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/L...4-details.aspx
I could give you tons more examples.
It's becoming less and less but photos are still a bit of the "wild west" when it comes to buying and selling.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Is that eBay member a net member?

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by pherbener

I do think it's different with photos. The source you're citing is regarding card purchases. They have a more rigid price structure these days thanks to VCP etc. than photos. A year or two ago, I bought a Greene DiMaggio/ Williams Photo for $250 from a major auction house, sold it a week later for $500 only to see a similar but cropped version sell for $2750 in Christies!
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/L...4-details.aspx
I could give you tons more examples.
It's becoming less and less but photos are still a bit of the "wild west" when it comes to buying and selling.

Exactly. I would gladly give the buyer his money back on this one. Small=crystal clear in this case.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

Is that eBay member a net member?

Not sure if he is or not, but a good guy nonetheless.

[Exhibitman]

He bought it and he can do what he wants with it. If you think it's overpriced then don't buy it.

eBay is a different audience than an AH. Sellers flip items all the time. Perhaps he doesn't care if he sells it but will sell it for the right price. Or maybe he is listing it so he can avoid paying use tax on $5,000 by calling it inventory.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

He bought it and he can do what he wants with it. If you think it's overpriced then don't buy it.

This is exactly what I always say. Who cares what someone lists it for. It's his money to lose or his to triple. I sold for years to dealers who would double or triple the price they paid me only to sell to other people who were more than happy to pay them more money. Who cares either way. He may not sell it, but if he does my hat's off to him

[A2000]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This is exactly what I always say. Who cares what someone lists it for. It's his money to lose or his to triple. I sold for years to dealers who would double or triple the price they paid me only to sell to other people who were more than happy to pay them more money. Who cares either way. He may not sell it, but if he does my hat's off to him

+1

[quinnsryche]

I 100% agree with Adam and Jason. You bought it, do with it what you will. Why is this even a discussion?

[Bpm0014]

It's a great photo. I was in on the bidding but dropped out late. After all, it's only a snapshot, not an 8x10.

[Snapolit1]

It's true, once you buy something you can mark it up 100 fold if you want or burn it. Or drive your car over it. Or throw it in the lake. But there is something that seems less than upstanding about buying something for $175 and immediately trying to find someone to pay $975 for it. Basically fishing for someone who is not dialed into the market valuation. Not illegal, probably not immoral, but still seems less than admirable.

I see a lot of photos I'd like from people who do this as a living and won't bid for them. Even if I can't find the most recent selling price I assume what they are asking is outrageous.

Moral of the story: bid more at RMY. Cause the next time you see it someone will have it on ebay for way more than they paid for it.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by pherbener

I do think it's different with photos. The source you're citing is regarding card purchases. They have a more rigid price structure these days thanks to VCP etc. than photos. A year or two ago, I bought a Greene DiMaggio/ Williams Photo for $250 from a major auction house, sold it a week later for $500 only to see a similar but cropped version sell for $2750 in Christies!
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/L...4-details.aspx
I could give you tons more examples.
It's becoming less and less but photos are still a bit of the "wild west" when it comes to buying and selling.

+1

Even between two RMY auctions you can see huge changes in price in the same photo.

AAGPBL - $52 Dec2013
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=434

AAGPBL - $372 June2014 (same shot new copy)
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=3998
7 month difference of $320

Conlon Schalk - $70 Nov2014
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=5524

Conlon Schalk - $140 Dec2015 (same shot new copy)
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=12712
13 month difference of $70

Plank - $1210 Nov2014
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=5579
Plank - $440 July2017 (Exact same copy)
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=26948
32 month difference of -$770

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

It's true, once you buy something you can mark it up 100 fold if you want or burn it. Or drive your car over it. Or throw it in the lake. But there is something that seems less than upstanding about buying something for $175 and immediately trying to find someone to pay $975 for it. Basically fishing for someone who is not dialed into the market valuation. Not illegal, probably not immoral, but still seems less than admirable.

I see a lot of photos I'd like from people who do this as a living and won't bid for them. Even if I can't find the most recent selling price I assume what they are asking is outrageous.

Moral of the story: bid more at RMY. Cause the next time you see it someone will have it on ebay for way more than they paid for it.

I think Steve makes a great point, and I know not for every one, but for me once I see a seller who sells one item at a ridiculous markup, I assume all the rest of the items they sell are as well, so I then Exclude them from showing up in my Searches.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

It's true, once you buy something you can mark it up 100 fold if you want or burn it. Or drive your car over it. Or throw it in the lake. But there is something that seems less than upstanding about buying something for $175 and immediately trying to find someone to pay $975 for it. Basically fishing for someone who is not dialed into the market valuation. Not illegal, probably not immoral, but still seems less than admirable.

I see a lot of photos I'd like from people who do this as a living and won't bid for them. Even if I can't find the most recent selling price I assume what they are asking is outrageous.

Moral of the story: bid more at RMY. Cause the next time you see it someone will have it on ebay for way more than they paid for it.

With all do respect steve(hi buddy) photos are not like cards and there is no clear cut market valuation as shown by Andy. This stuff is still evolving. Doubling the price on a photo such as a single pose Josh gibson( probably a 1 of 1) is nothing. Clearly it is frustrating for people who want an item but it is a free market. I ha e been frustrated in the past too. But...Find Another.
Btw-great meeting you in Chicago. Great times.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

With all do respect steve(hi buddy) photos are not like cards and there is no clear cut market valuation as shown by Andy. This stuff is still evolving. Doubling the price on a photo such as a single pose Josh gibson( probably a 1 of 1) is nothing. Clearly it is frustrating for people who want an item but it is a free market. I ha e been frustrated in the past too. But...Find Another.
Btw-great meeting you in Chicago. Great times.

Totally agree with Ben and Brendan here. These photos are survival of the fittest. If you think a photo is worth 5K then pay it. If not don't. But you can't get mad at someone who sees a photo, thinks it's worth 5K and can get it for 1500 and wants to make money off it.

[Snapolit1]

Ben, cool meeting you in Chicago.

Not disagreeing that market for photos is a little more amorphous than cards. And as I said people can do what they want.

For now I will stick to auctions for photos, as it seems people simply buy pictures in auctions and then go fishing for much bigger prices. On occasion I've bought photos from guys only to find out RMY sold it 6 mos ago for half what I paid. Feel like a dope but what can you do.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

Totally agree with Ben and Brendan here. These photos are survival of the fittest. If you think a photo is worth 5K then pay it. If not don't. But you can't get mad at someone who sees a photo, thinks it's worth 5K and can get it for 1500 and wants to make money off it.

Well I don't see a lot of these 100 or 200% markups actulally selling but maybe once in a while lightening strikes.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Ben, cool meeting you in Chicago.

Not disagreeing that market for photos is a little more amorphous than cards. And as I said people can do what they want.

For now I will stick to auctions for photos, as it seems people simply buy pictures in auctions and then go fishing for much bigger prices. On occasion I've bought photos from guys only to find out RMY sold it 6 mos ago for half what I paid. Feel like a dope but what can you do.

You shouldn't feel like a dope. You got a photo you wanted at what YOU thought was a fair price. What does it matter what they paid at that point?

[Snapolit1]

Would you use the same logic if you paid $10,000 for an engagement ring and really loved it and then found out a year later it was a piece of cheap glass?

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Would you use the same logic if you paid $10,000 for an engagement ring and really loved it and then found out a year later it was a piece of cheap glass?

No. Why would I? If it's a fake diamond obviously I'd be mad. But a quality item at a fair price (or what I deemed fair) is nothing to lose sleep over.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Would you use the same logic if you paid $10,000 for an engagement ring and really loved it and then found out a year later it was a piece of cheap glass?

Nope and N/A.

[Snapolit1]

I don't agree with the premise that there is no discernable fair market value for photos. It may be imprecise and harder to get to.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I don't agree with the premise that there is no discernable fair market value for photos. It may be imprecise and harder to get to.

I don't agree with the premise that there is a clear cut one. Nor do I believe anyone asking for more money than this "said" value is wrong.

Example: All one has to do is look on heritage under past sales with offers that have either been declined or accepted to see how quickly the market has changed/is changing. To suggest otherwise is simply not accurate.

I think everyone has the right to buy something and sell for a profit if they want. It doesn't make them anti hobby. I do understand the frustration though

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

I don't agree with the premise that there is a clear cut one. Nor do I believe anyone asking for more money than this "said" value is wrong.

Example: All one has to do is look on heritage under past sales with offers that have either been declined or accepted to see how quickly the market has changed/is changing. To suggest otherwise is simply not accurate.

I think everyone has the right to buy something and sell for a profit if they want. It doesn't make them anti hobby.

Well said. Photo market is a lot different now than prices I saw in 2015 from researching.

[Snapolit1]

I agree with most of what you guys are saying. Photos are different. But the fair market value of a photo could be a range of 5,000-10,000. A wide range. When someone asks 30,000 for that photo that's unsupported by the market as it currently exists.

The best market indicator I see is what are highly educated people willing to spend on RMY or similar sites. If a photo gets 1500 views and sells for 750, to me that's a pretty good indicator of current market value.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I agree with most of what you guys are saying. Photos are different. But the fair market value of a photo could be a range of 5,000-10,000. A wide range. When someone asks 30,000 for that photo that's unsupported by the market as it currently exists.

The best market indicator I see is what are highly educated people willing to spend on RMY or similar sites. If a photo gets 1500 views and sells for 750, to me that's a pretty good indicator of current market value.

Well said as well. That is true. BUT there are exceptions. Now I know who you are talking about in regards to winning photos at RMY and listing at 10X that and agree that is a bit much, however there are still people that do not know about these photo auctions and are willing to pay up. (so why not) lol

[Forever Young]

Guys... New people come over every day. Not even close to everyone in photos bids in Rmy although they have a great following. Every time a new person gets into photos and is an aggressive buyer photos go up. It's still in its infancy stage. 1500 views on an item on eBay is nothing.... especially when there are psychos like me that look at a photo 50 times if they're interested. I bought a photo in heritage for 5k and was offered 9500 the next day. The examples go on and on.

10x does not translate Into much when you're only talking about a $25 photo to begin with. Each photo is very rare. Buyers are emotional about the image. There's no set price. I don't understand this argument or this post. If you want a photo buy it. If you lose out on the photo don't cry move onto another photo. It's that simple. Someone wants to buy something they can do whatever they want with it. Dealers are part of the hobby and it is there livelihood.. the point is to make money.There is no set price for one particular photo.
There was a Namath photo in Huggins to just sold for $66,000. Everyone at the national thought it would go for 15 to 20. Seasoned dealers that Have been in photos forever thought 10-20 max. A One week eBay auction is not the market. In auction that ended yesterday is not the market. A private sale is not the market. I have provided examples.. examples were provided below within even the same auction. There is really nothing else to say in my mind.. which is SHOCKMAN my I know. HaThis is my last message on this as it's just going around and around and around. I am getting dizzy. happy photo collecting!

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by forever young

guys... New people come over every day. Not even close to everyone in photos bids in rmy. Every time a new person gets in the photos and is an aggressive buyer photos go up. It's still in its infancy stage. 1500 views on an item on ebay is nothing. Especially when there are psychos like me that look at a photo 50 times if they're interested. I bought a photo and heritage for 5k and was offered 9500 the next day. The examples go on and on.

10x does not translate into much money when you're only talking about a $25 photo to begin with. Each photo is very rare. Buyers are emotional about the image. There's no set price. I don't understand this argument or this post. If you want to photo by it. If you lose out on the photo don't cry move onto another photo. It's that simple. Someone wants to buy something they can do whatever they want with it. There is no set price for one particular photo. There was a name with the photo in huggins to just sold for $66,000. Everyone at the national thought it would go for 15 to 20. Seasoned dealers that have been in photos forever. There is no set price. A one week ebay auction is not the market. In auction that ended yesterday is not the market. This is my last message on this as it's just going around and around and around. I am getting g dizzy.

+10000

[Snapolit1]

My last word (promise):

There is an entire industry that exists to appraise the fair market value of artwork. Many documented one of a kind pieces of art. The idea that photos can't be valued because they are somehow special is a good canard for people making a business out of selling phots, but that's all it is. A canard.

An economist will tell you that a FMV can be determined for any commodity. If you guys in the business of buying and selling photos want to act differently, go for it. The fact that a Chinese billionaire drives by my house and falls in love with it and gives me $3 million to move doesn't obscure the fact that the fair market value of my house is $550,000.

[bn2cardz]

Not every possibly interested party is able to see every possible auction. I have paid a premium on this site when someone picked it up off of ebay for half what I paid. I knew this when I did it and felt no ill feelings towards the seller. I even told him that it essentially was a finder's fee, because he found it and not me.

Also you can't assume the prices are going up across the board on photos. Each auction seems to bring different prices. Some stay close, but others have drastic changes.

For instance this Ruth that sold in 2014 for $1068, then resold this year for $105
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=3433
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=23110

If the buyer this time around keeps seeing posts that say values are going up in photos and sees they bought a photo at 1/10th the price it last sold at in the same venue, would it be unreasonable for them to think they could ask 10x the value this time?

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

My last word (promise):

There is an entire industry that exists to appraise the fair market value of artwork. Many documented one of a kind pieces of art. The idea that photos can't be valued because they are somehow special is a good canard for people making a business out of selling phots, but that's all it is. A canard.

An economist will tell you that a FMV can be determined for any commodity. If you guys in the business of buying and selling photos want to act differently, go for it. The fact that a Chinese billionaire drives by my house and falls in love with it and gives me $3 million to move doesn't obscure the fact that the fair market value of my house is $550,000.

Comparing thease are extremes. It is not that simple. Clear Examples have been given.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

My last word (promise):

There is an entire industry that exists to appraise the fair market value of artwork. Many documented one of a kind pieces of art. The idea that photos can't be valued because they are somehow special is a good canard for people making a business out of selling phots, but that's all it is. A canard.

An economist will tell you that a FMV can be determined for any commodity. If you guys in the business of buying and selling photos want to act differently, go for it. The fact that a Chinese billionaire drives by my house and falls in love with it and gives me $3 million to move doesn't obscure the fact that the fair market value of my house is $550,000.

"Can be" and "has been" are two different time frames. Eventually I believe there will be a better understood market value of photos as websites continue to populate old auction results (like VCP does for cards). At this time, though, it hasn't happened and prices are still volatile.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Not every possibly interested party is able to see every possible auction. I have paid a premium on this site when someone picked it up off of ebay for half what I paid. I knew this when I did it and felt no ill feelings towards the seller. I even told him that it essentially was a finder's fee, because he found it and not me.

Also you can't assume the prices are going up across the board on photos. Each auction seems to bring different prices. Some stay close, but others have drastic changes.

For instance this Ruth that sold in 2014 for $1068, then resold this year for $105
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=3433
https://rmyauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=23110

If the buyer this time around keeps seeing posts that say values are going up in photos and sees they bought a photo at 1/10th the price it last sold at in the same venue, would it be unreasonable for them to think they could ask 10x the value this time?

Great points. And I guess I lied about being my last post. Dang it. I doubt someone would sell there house for 1/10 of what they paid

[Snapolit1]

I lied too. My last words. . .

Yes, it's the Wild West right now in photos. Is that photo worth $1,000 or $10,000. Not always so clear. No VCP or other database to easily consult. But if the last two sales of a photo in the last two years were $500 and then $700 a few months later, I'd be hesitant to pay $4,000 unless you are buying it totally removed from any worry about valuation.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I lied too. My last words. . .

Yes, it's the Wild West right now in photos. Is that photo worth $1,000 or $10,000. Not always so clear. No VCP or other database to easily consult. But if the last two sales of a photo in the last two years were $500 and then $700 a few months later, I'd be hesitant to pay $4,000 unless you are buying it totally removed from any worry about valuation.

I wouldn't be on certain photos and certain instances. Bottom line is.. like usual .. buy what you like and feel comfortable buying. If not.. don't buy. If someone buys something for more than what you will spend, that doesn't make them stupid. If said person decides to sell that item for 2x that doesn't make them stupid or wrong... actually the contrary.

I have been offered double on an item that I mentioned before the next day and turned down.. am I stupid because of it? I think you have photos I would pay you double or even triple that you picked up a year or so ago. If you do not sell them to me, does that make you wrong?

As more people get in the photos, prices are going to fluctuate. Anytime new price points are established , pleople will resists. People that Have missed the boat so to speak are going to fight it. People that Have been doing it for a long time and want to continue to buy photos of the same prices are going to fight the change. People that have sold or traded photos and regret it(I have a couple instances) might fight it. And people that simply don't understand photos and think prices are stupid are going to fight it.

If photos take off where they could be, it will affect a lot of collectors and dealers.

Don't worry.. be happy .. and collect what you want and let others do the same.

Ps: sorry about potential gibberish.. voice texting again.

[Snapolit1]

No gibberish at all. Makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Forever Young

I wouldn't be on certain photos and certain instances. Bottom line is.. like usual .. buy what you like and feel comfortable buying. If not.. don't buy. If someone buys something for more than what you will spend, that doesn't make them stupid. If said person decides to sell that item for 2x that doesn't make them stupid or wrong... actually the contrary.

I have been offered double on an item that I mentioned before the next day and turned down.. am I stupid because of it? I think you have photos I would pay you double or even triple that you picked up a year or so ago. If you do not sell them to me, does that make you wrong?

As more people get in the photos, prices are going to fluctuate. Anytime new price points are established , pleople will resists. People that Have missed the boat so to speak are going to fight it. People that Have been doing it for a long time and want to continue to buy photos of the same prices are going to fight the change. People that have sold or traded photos and regret it(I have a couple instances) might fight it. And people that simply don't understand photos and think prices are stupid are going to fight it.

If photos take off where they could be, it affects a lot of collectors and dealers.

Don't worry.. be happy .. and collect what you want and let others to the same.

Ps: sorry about potential gibberish.. voice texting again.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

.. buy what you like and feel comfortable buying. If not.. don't buy. If someone buys something for more than what you will spend, that doesn't make them stupid. If said person decides to sell that item for 2x that doesn't make them stupid or wrong... actually the contrary.

I have been offered double on an item that I mentioned before the next day and turned down.. am I stupid because of it? I think you have photos I would pay you double or even triple that you picked up a year or so ago. If you do not sell them to me, does that make you wrong?

Agree completely.

I have bought a few unique (or close to it) items thinking I paid too much, then have someone offer me even more a few weeks/months later. More than once the story has been that they just didn't have the cash to keep bidding, but now they do and think the item is well worth paying the premium.

Whoever bought Josh might think he has a better audience on ebay than Rhys did, and that he got a great deal. On the flip side, I have seen Rhys sell photos in his auction for double what I was asking for the exact same print on ebay.

That Josh Gibson print is a great one, regardless of its worth.