Update on PWCC Bid Monitoring Program

[Brent Huigens]

Dear members,

As some of you know, PWCC implemented a pilot program in partnership with eBay to limit the frequency of eBay users cancelling bids on our listings. This pilot program consists of several components including actions taken by eBay as well as actions taken by PWCC. The purpose of this post is to provide an update on this program.

As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold.

Overall, we are pleased to report that this program seems to be successfully reducing bid cancellations on our listings. You’ll see in the attached graph that while there is variety in the total amount of cancellations (generally mirroring the total number of items we have for sale each day), there has been a significant downward trend. While we used to see an average of about 14 cancellations per day, we are now seeing an average of five. We continue to work closely with eBay to highlight the problems associated with bid cancellations and ways to address them.

Thank you for your continued support of this important program.

[calvindog]

Lol

[JollyElm]

It should be a straight horizontal line at zero. Anything else is just ridiculous. Come on!!!!

Is this per listing?

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by gobucsmagic74

is this per listing?

😂😂

[JeremyW]

According to your graph, people who purchased items in the middle of September 2016 were extremely vulnerable. Am I mistaken?

[slidekellyslide]

Ummmm....Ebay allows bidders to make as many bid cancellations as they want to. Why are they in some "Pilot program" with you to try and reduce the number of bid cancellations when all they have to do is put an end to bid cancellations?

[JollyElm]

What the graph should look like…

Average Bid Cancellations.jpg

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Ummmm....Ebay allows bidders to make as many bid cancellations as they want to. Why are they in some "Pilot program" with you to try and reduce the number of bid cancellations when all they have to do is put an end to bid cancellations?

Great point Dan...

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Is this per listing?

I'm not sure if you are being facetious, but I started laughing when I saw that post.....

I'd lower the number to 2 because I can imagine there are times when people bone head something, but 10x isn't a bone head mistake...

[CrackaJackKid]

So what he's saying is that there's only 10 fony bogus accounts shilling and bid retracting now than the previous 25 per item.

[pokerplyr80]

At least it's another step in the right direction. How many of those making fun of Brent's post ban buyers with more than 10 bid retractions from bidding on or buying your cards for sale on ebay?

[ngnichols]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

What the graph should look like…

Attachment 270154

THIS.

Also, there shouldn't be ANYONE with ZERO feedback/transactions bidding on items that are thousands of dollars in value bumping them up even further with bogus bids.

There should be a ZERO retraction policy and also a vetting process/standard to verify that the person is legit and can/will actually pay for the item and what they bid for it.

[nsaddict]

Gotta agree with Jesse! PWCC took the initiative to post here (knowing they'd face critics). There isn't a single ebay seller or auction house that could ever avoid shilling. If you don't like them don't bid, easy enough. I'm not a friend or consignor. I do buy from them, and bid where I feel comfortable.

[vintagerookies51]

People are always going to be complaining about something. Way to take another step in the right direction, Brent

[Topnotchsy]

Brent,

Kudos for this. Looks like a step in a positive direction.

I've got about 25 auctions listed with you that end in the next 2 hours of which I can confirm no shill bidding is being done. (Holding my breath on the Gehrig and Clemente cut autos and Ruth Game Used Patch card since I may take a bath on them...)

[slidekellyslide]

I don't understand why ebay needs to be a party to this? Ebay if they wanted could end bid retractions today, but they don't, and they won't. And this will have zero effect because anyone can and will retract bids if they want to because ebay allows it to happen. Anyone know what it actually takes for a buyer to get the boot from ebay?

Some lady got mad at me for turning her over for non-payment so one night she decided to hit the BIN on 30 or 40 of my highest priced items on ebay. I periodically checked her ebay ID to see if ebay would ban her, they never did. Another bidder asked me to end an auction early for a ridiculously low price, I answered him that I know what they typically sell for and would rather let the auction run to the end. Well he then used two accounts (including the same one he asked me to end the item early) to run up the auction to $1000 on a $300 item. I emailed him to ask him what was up, he denied even bidding on it even though I could see he was the underbidder. I called ebay and the lady told me she could see it was the same person. She said she would cancel their bids. I waited and waited but ebay did not cancel the bids so I did it myself and then blocked both accounts. Neither account was suspended.

Ebay doesn't give one crap what the bidder/buyer is doing as long as sellers keep paying their ebay bill at the end of the month. Shill bidding? Yeah, ebay loves it, more $$$ for them. Why do you think they made it harder for bidders to see each other? Bid retractions? Yeah, ebay doesn't care because they know that retracting a bid is part of the shilling game that makes them more $$$.

[Arazi4442]

FWIW, I'm in the camp of those who hope this is a step in the right direction. Even small steps are progress.

[vthobby]

Brent,

Thank you for the monthly checks that ALWAYS arrive on time and for the crazy prices you get on some of my items!

I have NEVER been withheld funds on ANY item I have ever sent. I guarantee you that some of my items were not paid for since I've been consigning for 2 years now but I have been paid for EVERY item ALWAYS.

Thanks Brent!

Peace, Mike

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Dear members,

As some of you know, PWCC implemented a pilot program in partnership with eBay to limit the frequency of eBay users cancelling bids on our listings. This pilot program consists of several components including actions taken by eBay as well as actions taken by PWCC. The purpose of this post is to provide an update on this program.

As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold.

Overall, we are pleased to report that this program seems to be successfully reducing bid cancellations on our listings. You’ll see in the attached graph that while there is variety in the total amount of cancellations (generally mirroring the total number of items we have for sale each day), there has been a significant downward trend. While we used to see an average of about 14 cancellations per day, we are now seeing an average of five. We continue to work closely with eBay to highlight the problems associated with bid cancellations and ways to address them.

As others noted. you don't need to reduce the numbers. You simply need to be provided a line which you can cut people off at. That is on both Ebay and you to get correct if I am not mistaken. This whole post with the graph and all of that shit, is basically asking the people here if they are stupid.
Thank you for your continued support of this important program.

OK. So you are seeing 14 cancelled bids per day and the best you can do is this? This problem is way worse than anyone thought you may have known it could possibly be.

Re-read that.

Do you not get any transparency into this and have the ability to flag any of it to EBay based on your own judgment factor? I can't believe that to not be the case. This sounds like asses and elbows.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Dear members,
....

As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months.
.....

What are you doing to limit first time registrations now that you have blocked people from bidding? I have seen an influx of low feedback buyers in your auctions and to me, it looks like every single person you are quote un-quote blocking, is just registering for a new user id.

This compromises your entire graph and makes you look really, REALLY sub-intelligent. You have ZERO reputation management. You allow ebay to handle it all for you. You don't require a minimum feedback score to bid. This whole post is a freaking joke.

Lets seem some non paying bidder stats.

[toledo_mudhen]

Wow - Tuff Crowd Here...........

[Timbegs]

Just to weigh in a little...

I'm probably a good example of why you can't just blanket ban people based on criteria. I'm recently more active in the hobby after an absence, I have a low eBay feedback score (68) and I like to buy vintage cards. I don't do so too often, but I never cancel bids and always pay on time. And even for the smaller auction house websites - I lurk and if I see something, I'll sign up day of and bid on/win a desired lot. Now, it may suck for the guys who are better customers, bid all the time, follow the auction and are more active but this is how I do it - and at the end of the day, we're ALL merely trying to get what we want.

I tend to bid on some items in the last minute - definitely on a PWCC item or two over the years, I can't specifically recall what - because I KNOW that I am competing with snipers, autobidders and other people like me so, often, in the last 10-15 seconds of an auction, I put MY best bid in and hope for the best - sometimes double the current bid. I'm not shilling; I'm trying to win a timed auction. It looks and feels like 'someone screwed me' but in reality its just a different bidding style that has to do with the fact that I don't want my presence as a bidder known to the auctioneer, the other bidders or eBay, for a myriad of reasons.

[Rookiemonster]

I think it is a attempt at getting ducks in order. BUT can we now see the shady dealings chart ? I don't think eBay has a pilot program for shady dealings. ( ahh if you have 10 or more shady dealings I will not be doing business with you) I guess I got my own pilot program and it's working fine .

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I think it is a attempt at getting ducks in order. BUT can we now see the shady dealings chart ? I don't eBay has a pilot program for shady dealings. ( ahh if you have 10 or more shady dealings I will not be doing business with you) I guess I got my own pilot program and it's working fine .

Shady dealings include sending consignors their payments in cash instead of a check.

[jhs5120]

Seriously, good work!

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Shady dealings include sending consignors their payments in cash instead of a check.

Other shady dealings are but not limited to.

Buying,cleaning and reselling cards.

Telling cohorts when to bid on auctions.

Driving up values and then selling the card with inflated value.

Shill bidding.

Extremely low feed back bidders.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Other shady dealings are but not limited to.

Buying,cleaning and reselling cards.

Telling cohorts when to bid on auctions.

Driving up values and then selling the card with inflated value.

Shill bidding.

Extremely low feed back bidders.

Cool, are we listing things that are normal in PWCC auctions?

[bobbyw8469]

There should be a ZERO retraction policy and also a vetting process/standard to verify that the person is legit and can/will actually pay for the item and what they bid for it.

^^^ This!! If someone retracts a bid with me and they DO NOT place the correct bid, then they are done. Period.

[Republicaninmass]

Full disclosure should be made for any cards owned by said consignor, PWCC.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Timbegs

Just to weigh in a little...

I'm probably a good example of why you can't just blanket ban people based on criteria. I'm recently more active in the hobby after an absence, I have a low eBay feedback score (68) and I like to buy vintage cards.

You have not given any good example or reason that excludes existing problems from easy remediation.

[Snapolit1]

I don't understand the hostility directed at PWCC for at least trying something. I have had real issues with them in the past unrelated to this issue, but it seems like some of you are expecting them to solve eBay weaknesses and cure a few diseases at the same time.

It may be a surprise to some of you, but PWCC can't tell eBay how to run their business. Yes, there is a problem with apparent shill bidding and BS bid retractions on some of their items. Maybe a not insignificant number of their items. There are consignors out there who will have friends and family, and maybe even themselves with alternative accounts, pump up the price of their auction items. This is an auction fact of life. Happens on eBay and happens everywhere else. Could happen at the church auction down the street. The guy bidding against you may have no interest other than helping someone else make more money. Deal with it. It's reality.

As far as bid retractions go, I have no evidence that they are worse for PWCC than any other major card seller. Nor do I have any belief that they are any worse than say some dude selling 10,000 hummels or 10,000 watches a month on ebay. Game playing will go on. If eBay allows people to retract bids with impunity, and PWCC reaches out to them to do something, I take this as both a tacit admission that there is a problem here that should be addressed and a positive sign that Brent thinks his company's credibility is taking a meaningful hit.

My final point is that I DO NOT find 5 bid retractions a day high for an outfit that often has 5,000+ items listed at a time. That might get 25,000+ bids in a day I'd guess. 5 or 10 or even 20 of those bids are retracted. I'd say at least 50% of those could have been genuine errors. Doesn't seem overly crazy to me.

Long winded way of saying that it seems many of you have real problems with eBay and blame PWCC for them.

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

That's true, but I would be hardly surprised to learn that some dudes have been carefully cultivating 10 or 12 separate eBay accounts over the course of a number of years to deal with precisely those kinds of issues.

[Leon]

+2.7 In my experiences almost every time I think of something,
it has been thought of before, usually much before.

Back to the subject. Of course PWCC is an advertiser so that is my biased in it. My view is PWCC is headed in the right direction but as with most others I wish it were a bit quicker. From recent, first hand experience I know change takes time on the bay...

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

That's true, but I would be hardly surprised to learn that some dudes have been carefully cultivated 10 or 12 separate eBay accounts over the course of a number of years to deal with precisely those kinds of issues.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

And they can stop that also. Require them to buy and receive 10 feedbacks before being allowed to bid. Stop it, no. Make it much harder, yes. Easily, without getting EBay involved.

If someone is inclined to shill their own auction, requiring 10 feedbacks is pretty meaningless.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

If someone is inclined to shill their own auction, requiring 10 feedbacks is pretty meaningless.

You are not going to stop the one guy that wants to shill one auction to sell the one baseball card he owns and will ever own, but you can make it harder for the chronic offenders.

It is still one extra step. One extra PayPal account sign up. 10 fake transactions per account, time to leave the feedback, or payment on a real item they likely don't want. Trails and evidence of fraud. One extra EBay registration.The accounts will eventually be blocked for non paying bids, shilling, and retractions.

Would you want to do this for every auction you list an item in, every 30 days for multiple accounts? The fact that it can be circumvented doesn't mean it is meaningless. The option has been there for 20 years for a reason.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

You are not going to stop the one guy that wants to shill one auction to sell the one baseball card he owns and will ever own, but you can make it harder for the chronic offenders.

It is still one extra step. One extra PayPal account sign up. 10 fake transactions per account, time to leave the feedback, or payment on a real item they likely don't want. Trails and evidence of fraud. One extra EBay registration.The accounts will eventually be blocked for non paying bids, shilling, and retractions.

Would you want to do this for every auction you list an item in, every 30 days for multiple accounts? The fact that it can be circumvented doesn't mean it is meaningless. The option has been there for 20 years for a reason.

I get it that you are trying to find a solution to the problem, but many of the worst chronic offenders of massive retractions have feedback in the thousands and still shill/retract with impunity. As far as requiring 10 feedbacks creating evidence of fraud, again, there are many, many accounts on eBay with feedback in the hundreds or thousands that are on the site despite many retractions.

If eBay doesn't care about accounts with feedback in the thousands that rampantly shill auctions, they are going to be vigilant about someone with 10 feedbacks?

As far as non-paying bids, why would anyone buy an expensive item then not pay if the goal if just to build up your suggested 10 feedbacks. The easy way around that would simply be to buy 10 items at 99 cents or "buy" from yourself/a friend with a different account to simply build up feedback.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

As far as non-paying bids, why would anyone buy an expensive item then not pay if the goal if just to build up your suggested 10 feedbacks. The easy way around that would simply be to buy 10 items at 99 cents or "buy" from yourself/a friend with a different account to simply build up feedback.

I've been convinced for a while that some of these said consignors/consignees have multiples people/multiple accounts bidding up items

edited: the watch count alone, having HUNDREDS more than others sellers with the exact same items, lends credence to this theory

[Exhibitman]

Meaningless window dressing, the asinine equivalent of saying that you are cracking down on drunk driving because you only allow a driver ten DUIs before suspending his license. Here's an idea: bar any bidder with more than two retractions and do it now. All this waiting is nonsense. No amount of double-talk and graphics conceals the fact that your auctions are riddled with fraud, that you know it, and that you would rather aid the crooks in stealing from your customers than resolve the problem.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I've been convinced for a while that some of these said consignors/consignees have multiples people/multiple accounts bidding up items

edited: the watch count alone, having HUNDREDS more than others sellers with the exact same items, lends credence to this theory

Agreed...I can sell the EXACT same card and grade and get nowhere near the watch count, bids, nor final sales price. And I am OK with that.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Gotta agree with Jesse! PWCC took the initiative to post here (knowing they'd face critics). There isn't a single ebay seller or auction house that could ever avoid shilling. If you don't like them don't bid, easy enough. I'm not a friend or consignor. I do buy from them, and bid where I feel comfortable.

+1

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by vintagerookies51

People are always going to be complaining about something. Way to take another step in the right direction, Brent

+1

[JustinD]

I think until eBay returns to days past this is going to be the status quo.

Why was it so easy to avoid this 7 - 10 years ago? I could adjust listing settings to avoid negative feedback, low feedback and npbs.

eBay should bring back negative feedback for buyers. If they are worried about the return of bidder blackmail, then provide it only in the case of an non- payer.

Auction settings need to return to the ability to block low feedback, negative feedback ratings and non-payers. This should not be my responsibility as a seller to locate non-payers, it should be eBay's responsibility to alert me. Also any bidder should lose the ability to withdraw bids at anytime without approval of the seller. I don't care that accidents happen, you should get dinged and if it happens twice in 6 months your incompetence should get you banned for a minimal year.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Meaningless window dressing, the asinine equivalent of saying that you are cracking down on drunk driving because you only allow a driver ten DUIs before suspending his license. Here's an idea: bar any bidder with more than two retractions and do it now. All this waiting is nonsense. No amount of double-talk and graphics conceals the fact that your auctions are riddled with fraud, that you know it, and that you would rather aid the crooks in stealing from your customers than resolve the problem.

In 18 or so years on ebay I have never retracted a bid to the best of my memory. I am sure most guys here could say the same. The 25 in 6 month limit was meaningless. I guess 10 is better but I still can't imagine 10 legitimate retractions in that timeframe, unless it was some real one-off situation where a seller misrepresented cards and the bidder found out and backed out of a group of listings.

Will a motivated individual work around getting blocked? Some will. But that doesn't excuse the lack of a more sincere effort.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In 18 or so years on ebay I have never retracted a bid to the best of my memory. I am sure most guys here could say the same. The 25 in 6 month limit was meaningless. I guess 10 is better but I still can't imagine 10 legitimate retractions in that timeframe, unless it was some real one-off situation where a seller misrepresented cards and the bidder found out and backed out of a group of listings.

Will a motivated individual work around getting blocked? Some will. But that doesn't excuse the lack of a more sincere effort.

Just not entirely clear to me how much power PWCC really has to put the hammer down and enforce regulations on auctions being run by another company.

[Topnotchsy]

I've sold with pwcc before and can say 2 things:
1) he definitely has more people watching his auctions listings than most. This is logical given that he has many times the followers that most sellers have. (By followers I mean people who get alerts when he lists items)
2) some of his items sell for considerably more than items from other sellers without any shilling. Of course some sell on the low side as well. I had around 30 items that sold over the last couple of days. I took big hits on a few that sold for a lot less than expected (one went for 40%-50% of my expectation) and most sold for around going rate but there were a few that sold for a lot more (for example a card I expected $250 for going for almost $500).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Just not entirely clear to me how much power PWCC really has to put the hammer down and enforce regulations on auctions being run by another company.

A seller can block any bidder he chooses to block. Next question?

[Bigshot69]

Ebay should build a buyer scoring model similar to whats used for credit scores. This way sellers could use this information when accepting best offers or setting minimum bidder score criteria when selling through auctions. This model could be based on the following criteria:

-Proportion of bid retractions compared to winning bids (10 to me isn't a big deal if someone has won 500 items in the last 6 months)
-Cost of average purchase
-Average time between purchase and payment
-Number of NPB cases opened against
-Number of purchases

I know this sounds a bit out there but does anyone else feel this would add value?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A seller can block any bidder he chooses to block. Next question?

If someone wants to commit systematic fraud believing they are making $$ that is a teeny tiny speed bump. Let me reach for ebay identity #4 or ask my brother in law for a favor.

I have had people ask me to "help" move their auctions along. I am sure many people on this board have gotten similar requests.