the list (of criminals) is revealed

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

...
It's a sick & twisted business that we support that is 90% devoid of any morals, conscience and integrity.

It is not 90%, not even close. I'm sickened by the shilling epidemic as much as every other collector and moral dealer out there, but to say that evil makes up 90% of the hobby is ridiculous. I believe there is a much higher percentage of good than evil.

[SMPEP]

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Personally I think you have that backwards.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Really??????

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I may be the only collector out on this limb, but I am inclined to think that the Mastro prosecutions will serve as a significant deterrent against systemic conspiracies between auction houses and consignors to shill bids. I think shill bidding by consignors and their confederates may be tougher to eradicate. Here I think auction houses would be wise to engage in some form of self-regulation that includes industry standards and efforts for identifying and ferreting out shill bidders.

People go to jail for insider trading too but doesnt stop anything.....as long as there is money to be made....the tv show american greed will always have new stories to tell

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

people do whatever people do Evil or Good. One can only account for oneself and family.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

It is not 90%, not even close. I'm sickened by the shilling epidemic as much as every other collector and moral dealer out there, but to say the evil make up 90% of the hobby is ridiculous. I believe there is a much higher percentage of good than evil.

I wouldn't say 90% in Card collecting hobby but I would agree with Ron in the Game used Market for sure. Today's standard seem to be Not that if it is worn an authentic, rather the perception that it is worn. Cards are hardly faked, maybe altered but you know it is what it is. But nothing worse than spending thousands on a game used item with a question mark.

[arcadekrazy]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Hahaha. Spaceballs!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

People go to jail for insider trading too but doesnt stop anything.....as long as there is money to be made....the tv show american greed will always have new stories to tell

Wouldn't it be interesting to see this particular incident as an episode of American Greed.....

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

who made that man a gunner?

[drcy]

My saying is "Honest people are honest." Why are they honest? Because they are honest.

I've volunteered at a non-profit playhouse and they have their change (just nickels, quarters and dimes-- nothing much, it's just a little non-profit) in an unlocked desk drawer. An officer worker joked that I could take money and no one would notice. I said "I've known the money's been in there for years, and the thought of taking a nickel hasn't even crossed my mind. It's not that I chose not to steal but the very thought of stealing didn't even enter my mind." She said, "That's because you're honest."

I think the majority of people have no interest or desire in cheating others. They often also are aware of the concept of 'repeat customers.

On the flip side are dishonest scammers who believe everyone in the world thinks dishonestly like them, and usually justify their actions this way.

Then there are the great mass of collectors who fall under enablers, crowd followers and wishful thinkers. If you complain about shilling and fakers, then buy "stuff" from an auction house you know shills and fakes, you are an enabler and a part of the problem. And if are are high grade card investor who glosses over that Mastro said most high grade graded cards have been altered and that the auction house promoted that he could "prep" your raw cards for grading, you're a wishful thinker and probably home there isn't an alterations statistical report for the FBI to someday uncover and publicize. The majority has the control over how things are done, but they chose not to collectively their collective power-- of course, trying to harness that power would be like trying to heard cats.

If collectors want to really exercise their power, they would say they won't bid and buy with dishonest auction houses, and they won't buy stuff that came from the auction houses. If an eBay seller buys stuff from a dishonest auction house then puts it on ebay, you won't buy it then either. That would put the sources in a bind.

But, of course, business will likely go on as usual, because the "silent majority" won't do anything. No doubt a plethora of the complainers in this elongated thread have already placed their bids with the questioned auction houses, and no doubt the bids for high grade graded cards will go higher and higher even as the cards get shorter and shorter and the grading/resubmission/registry game gets stupider and stupider.

The high grade side of the hobby is why I love all those collectors on limited budgets who collect beaters. I always consider them the real collectors. My mom would likely say about a guy paying six figures for a PSA 1964 Topps Roberto Clemente to show off on the PSA registry, "He's probably trying to make up for his little weiner."

When you boil it down and realize that the hobby is dealing in cardboard kid's collectables, a lot of the stuff that goes on is just stupid and silly. Worthy of a Spinal Tap-esque satire. Just think what people outside the hobby would think. That someone makes his living secretly trimming and pressing baseball card's in his basement or resubmitting and resubmitting a baseball card until he gets the right number on a label makes you say "This is what you're doing with your life? Some people aspire to write the Great American Novel." I don't care how much money he makes doing it, it's still stupid.

Though I'm not at all a religious man, my other response explaining why I don't do certain things is "I want to go to Heaven." Yes, as a non-religious person, I roll my eyes when well known scammers wear their religion on their sleeves and bring a Priest to court while simultaneously claiming they did nothing unethical or immoral. Makes me want to ask them "What exactly are the tenants of your religion? Maybe I misheard."

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

People go to jail for insider trading too but doesnt stop anything.....as long as there is money to be made....the tv show american greed will always have new stories to tell

Maybe so. But, what we don't know is how much insider trading has been deterred by criminal prosecutions. I don't know whether anyone has attempted to calculate this, or whether that would even be possible. I suspect a good bit.

If the issue is whether prosecutions will deter all criminal conduct by auction houses, we all know the answer. There will always be some greedy and brazen knuckleheads willing to run the risk of prosecution for money. Having spent a career in law enforcement, I believe we need to provide sufficient funding to investigative agencies and prosecutors, both federal and state, to bring these people to justice.

[HRBAKER]

drcy - excellent post
it's easy to complain, tougher to go without

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by timn1

I will not bid on any Goldin items - too many red flags in its history for me, and too many other places to spend my money.

I don't blame you. Kenny has proven to be da wheeler dealer he is with he and Mr.Abramowitz appearance on the list. In addition to turning a once great informative forum into a monitored infomercial. I'm sure Mr.Caviler has a role into the destruction of a once informative site. Gee Thanks Chris!

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by dhernandez

I don't blame you. Kenny has proven to be da wheeler dealer he is with he and Mr.Abramowitz appearance on the list. In addition to turning a once great informative forum into a monitored infomercial. I'm sure Mr.Caviler has a role into the destruction of a once informative site. Gee Thanks Chris!

Unabated Greed & Sheistyness Trumps All

[Sophiedog]

Originally Posted by drcy

My saying is "Honest people are honest." Why are they honest? Because they are honest.

I've volunteered at a non-profit playhouse and they have their change (just nickels, quarters and dimes-- nothing much, it's just a little non-profit) in an unlocked desk drawer. An officer worker joked that I could take money and no one would notice. I said "I've known the money's been in there for years, and the thought of taking a nickel hasn't even crossed my mind. It's not that I chose not to steal but the very thought of stealing didn't even enter my mind." She said, "That's because you're honest."

I think the majority of people have no interest or desire in cheating others. They often also are aware of the concept of 'repeat customers.

On the flip side are dishonest scammers who believe everyone in the world thinks dishonestly like them, and usually justify their actions this way.

Then there are the great mass of collectors who fall under enablers, crowd followers and wishful thinkers. If you complain about shilling and fakers, then buy "stuff" from an auction house you know shills and fakes, you are an enabler and a part of the problem. And if are are high grade card investor who glosses over that Mastro said most high grade graded cards have been altered and that the auction house promoted that he could "prep" your raw cards for grading, you're a wishful thinker and probably home there isn't an alterations statistical report for the FBI to someday uncover and publicize. The majority has the control over how things are done, but they chose not to collectively their collective power-- of course, trying to harness that power would be like trying to heard cats.

If collectors want to really exercise their power, they would say they won't bid and buy with dishonest auction houses, and they won't buy stuff that came from the auction houses. If an eBay seller buys stuff from a dishonest auction house then puts it on ebay, you won't buy it then either. That would put the sources in a bind.

But, of course, business will likely go on as usual, because the "silent majority" won't do anything. No doubt a plethora of the complainers in this elongated thread have already placed their bids with the questioned auction houses, and no doubt the bids for high grade graded cards will go higher and higher even as the cards get shorter and shorter and the grading/resubmission/registry game gets stupider and stupider.

The high grade side of the hobby is why I love all those collectors on limited budgets who collect beaters. I always consider them the real collectors. My mom would likely say about a guy paying six figures for a PSA 1964 Topps Roberto Clemente to show off on the PSA registry, "He's probably trying to make up for his little weiner."

When you boil it down and realize that the hobby is dealing in cardboard kid's collectables, a lot of the stuff that goes on is just stupid and silly. Worthy of a Spinal Tap-esque satire. Just think what people outside the hobby would think. That someone makes his living secretly trimming and pressing baseball card's in his basement or resubmitting and resubmitting a baseball card until he gets the right number on a label makes you say "This is what you're doing with your life? Some people aspire to write the Great American Novel." I don't care how much money he makes doing it, it's still stupid.

Though I'm not at all a religious man, my other response explaining why I don't do certain things is "I want to go to Heaven." Yes, as a non-religious person, I roll my eyes when well known scammers wear their religion on their sleeves and bring a Priest to court while simultaneously claiming they did nothing unethical or immoral. Makes me want to ask them "What exactly are the tenants of your religion? Maybe I misheard."

Excellent Post!!!!!

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Unabated Greed & Sheistyness Trumps All

The chimps took over like that sci-fi flick with Chuck Heston

[Rich Klein]

I was chatting with a local dealer on Sunday who said when the Sotheby fraud was disclosed he was able to get back 10 percent of what he spent and wondered why no similar restitution has been made to Mastro''s victims.

Rich

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

drcy - excellent post
it's easy to complain, tougher to go without

+1

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Awesome quote from an awesome movie! I can't believe people actually jumped down your throat for this one! I thought this movie and quote were part of every guy's DNA (especially for those that collect cardboard). I choked on my lunch when I read your post and then choked some more when I saw some guys on here that didn't get it. Shocking!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by mark evans

Maybe so. But, what we don't know is how much insider trading has been deterred by criminal prosecutions. I don't know whether anyone has attempted to calculate this, or whether that would even be possible. I suspect a good bit.

If the issue is whether prosecutions will deter all criminal conduct by auction houses, we all know the answer. There will always be some greedy and brazen knuckleheads willing to run the risk of prosecution for money. Having spent a career in law enforcement, I believe we need to provide sufficient funding to investigative agencies and prosecutors, both federal and state, to bring these people to justice.

right i would be interested if there has been an increased funding on these issues.....i suspect not...

[phil316]

Originally Posted by timn1

I will not bid on any Goldin items - too many red flags in its history for me, and too many other places to spend my money.

I highly disagree IMO Ken and Chris are one of the most honest people I have ever dealt with in the hobby. Goldin Auctions has top rated stuff every auction and they do thorough research behind each item and will not hesitate to pull a item if it is found to be questionable.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by phil316

I highly disagree IMO Ken and Chris are one of the most honest people I have ever dealt with in the hobby.

Umm...you may want to read the 971 prior posts on this thread. Very interesting first post. Welcome to the board.

[timn1]

Originally Posted by phil316

I highly disagree IMO Ken and Chris are one of the most honest people I have ever dealt with in the hobby. Goldin Auctions has top rated stuff every auction and they do thorough research behind each item and will not hesitate to pull a item if it is found to be questionable.

I'm sure that many people have had only positive experiences with them as you have. But, yeah, what about all that shilling info from the Mastro/Legendary document? And no response from Mr. Goldin....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Umm...you may want to read the 971 prior posts on this thread. Very interesting first post. Welcome to the board.

Upon further review our newest member has bad registration information on file. Correct registration information is required for membership. If he comes back with good info we can go from there. (he is suspended but his name was put there before his suspension) Hopefuly it's all a big mistake. thanks

ps...and my guess is that if we think through this we might come to the conclusion the anonymous poster is not an ally of anyone in this thread.

[earlywynnfan]

As for Goldin, I wouldn't hesitate to bid in his auctions, and I'm very critical of members of this list. I've talked to him since it was released. Has anyone else?

(got new info, disregard my comment on Phil316)

[Leon]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Phil316 has long been a quality member over at GUF, I'm sure his registration isn't malicious.

As for Goldin, I wouldn't hesitate to bid in his auctions, and I'm very critical of members of this list. I've talked to him since it was released. Has anyone else?

Whomever it is gave a bad phone number and registered with his name. Maybe it isn't him? That is an absolute possibility and also the reason there will not be anymore posts like that (anonymous?)allowed in this thread. They will be deleted and the members banned. If this person is who that is, then they can email me a good phone number, we can chat for a few minutes and I will come back and say it was a mistake? No big deal. It has happened before but more often than not it doesn't happen, in my experiences.

[wake.up.the.echoes]

Phil316 is a very frequent poster on gameuseduniverse.

Phillipriddell@hotmail.com is his given email address, Leon. Seems to be his name there too.

[glynparson]

I would not bid with him before the list came out and I won't bid after it came out. His actions at shop at home were egregious enough, in my opinion, that he will never get a dime from me. There are plenty of people out there who did not try and ruin the hobby or take advantage of those with lesser knowledge like i feel Kenny as his colleagues did on TV. It is a free country spend with whom you choose I just choose not to spend with him and never will. I do not need any card that bad to line his pockets.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wake.up.the.echoes

Phil316 is a very frequent poster on gameuseduniverse.

Phillipriddell@hotmail.com is his given email address, Leon. Seems to be his name there too.

That person (Phil) says it's not him...... Never underestimate the troll.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

That person (Phil) says it's not him...... Never underestimate the troll.

Ok, so just to get this straight. Someone creates a profile using the name and ID of a regular poster on GUU, and then comes over here to post in defense of Goldin. Is there any conclusion to draw other than this was someone at Goldin trying (fraudulently) to do some reputation rehab? Should we take this as Goldin's "official" response since nothing else was ever said?

I suppose there are plenty of other explanations, but my head hurts just trying to figure them out.

ETA: I guess someone with an axe to grind against Goldin could have made up this ruse, knowing it would be discovered and blamed on Goldin, in order to stir up more bad feelings?

[tschock]

When I first saw "Phil316" and the 'name' underneath, my mind went to Philippians 3:16. Not sure why, but hey, it's the subconscious so who am I to ask. LOL Not being overly devout, I looked it up.

15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Not trying to be religious here but wanted to provide the 'context' of v16 by v15 above. Interesting.... in light of this thread.

I'm thinking more serendipitous rather than intentional.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by tschock

When I first saw "Phil316" and the 'name' underneath, my mind went to Philippians 3:16. Not sure why, but hey, it's the subconscious so who am I to ask. LOL Not being overly devout, I looked it up.

15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Not trying to be religious here but wanted to provide the 'context' of v16 by v15 above. Interesting.... in light of this thread.

I figured it was his first name, and then a reference to John 3:16

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Ok, so just to get this straight. Someone creates a profile using the name and ID of a regular poster on GUU, and then comes over here to post in defense of Goldin. Is there any conclusion to draw other than this was someone at Goldin trying (fraudulently) to do some reputation rehab? Should we take this as Goldin's "official" response since nothing else was ever said?

I suppose there are plenty of other explanations, but my head hurts just trying to figure them out.

ETA: I guess someone with an axe to grind against Goldin could have made up this ruse, knowing it would be discovered and blamed on Goldin, in order to stir up more bad feelings?

Don't let your head hurt. Trust me, mine does it enough for both of us. But yes, I think you are onto the "trolling 102" class. Of course you have to take trolling 101 first as we are now in advanced trolling mode. Think about it, if you didn't like Goldin Auctions that would have been a great post (except it's a discovered troll now).

[mickeymao34]

i'll pose a question to get this thread back on track. Since I've read in more than a few posts that Heritage allows consignors to bid on own consignments. If every AH placed this in print as does HA rules, would this not alleviate some of this controversy. I'm not taking stance of consignor self bidding just making a point that if one AH places it within the rules to be ok to do so why don't they all?

[begsu1013]

each state is different and may have laws preventing such action.

i don't know, not an attorney but heritage is allowed to do so by texas law.

apart from obvious integrity issues, being allowed by law is pretty key.

but again, would like to see the legislature read that if any auction house does bid and win, that the 20% buyer's premium should go to the consignor.

of course, then they'd prolly just claim it was a non-paying bidder and we're back at square one again...

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

each state is different and may have laws preventing such action.

i don't know, not an attorney but heritage is allowed to do so by texas law.

apart from obvious integrity issues, being allowed by law is pretty key.

but again, would like to see the legislature read that if any auction house does bid and win, that the 20% buyer's premium should go to the consignor.

of course, then they'd prolly just claim it was a non-paying bidder and we're back at square one again...

Bob, Great point of the 20% BP. I'm sure that's in the playbook of every AH. None excluded.

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Its insane and totally ignorant that anyone would think/hope that a matter of this gravity that's been spoken about in alarming detail in this thread would just go away.

Some common sense advise to the responsible parties:
1. Take responsibility for your actions!!!
2. STOP hiding cause we see U
3. Say your sorry and mean it!!!
4. Attempt to make amends to the community as a whole
5. STOP trying to ban the TRUTH

Seems to me that taking responsibility and making amends would be a lot easier than say for instance:
1. Searching the internet in paranoid damage control trying to suppress the truth.
2. Trying to pressure/threaten forums into being a part of the apparent ongoing cover up of bad behavior by discouraging forum management from allowing open discussion in regards to this subject matter which quite frankly has affected most if not all in the hobby on some level.
3. Using designated plants to deflect attention or derail ongoing forum discussions
4. Running internet IP addresses on posters
5. Reiterating the same bogus company line
6. Thinking of new lies to tell and subsequently having to remember said lies.

I can't say Thank You enough to Net54 & Leon again for having the courage to allow an open forum about this subject matter because as far as I can tell in my searches of other sites freedom of speech does not exist unless it sticks to the script.

Ron Kosiewicz

Seems like item 3 of your 2nd column being employed again by "The Real" on his expert opinions and prospective buying. Yet of course this "guy" has never posted nor talked about anything he collects. I guess threat color code has lessened to yellow.

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

each state is different and may have laws preventing such action.

i don't know, not an attorney but heritage is allowed to do so by texas law.

apart from obvious integrity issues, being allowed by law is pretty key.

but again, would like to see the legislature read that if any auction house does bid and win, that the 20% buyer's premium should go to the consignor.

of course, then they'd prolly just claim it was a non-paying bidder and we're back at square one again...

How often do you guess House wins lots and use the non-paying bidder ploy and what happens next? Do they contact the next highest bidder or do they re-list? Prior to the internet when AHs were utilizing phone call in's to place bids. I'm sure the house bump was a standard that was employed routinely because of the lack of "hard" paper trail with phone bumps.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by dhernandez

How often do you guess House wins lots and use the non-paying bidder ploy and what happens next? Do they contact the next highest bidder or do they re-list? Prior to the internet when AHs were utilizing phone call in's to place bids. I'm sure the house bump was a standard that was employed routinely because of the lack of "hard" paper trail with phone bumps.

How often? Who knows. HA, I believe, is the only one brazen enough to afford themselves that right. A clue may be what happened with the Lenox Cobb: It hung around $8000 , with a sudden bump to a $17,000 bid ( which I believe was a house bid) . It hammers at that price and the next day is for sale at Heritage at that price. Disgusted me, but maybe I'm wrong in how it went down.

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Administrator

Some additional upgrades have just been made to the forum! Here are 2 big improvements we've made...

1) The Collector to Collector and Items Wanted section will now require member log in. As I'm sure many of you have experienced, there are a lot of lurkers on the forum. Personally I've always been caught off guard and cautious, when I'm approached about an item by a non-member. Buying and selling should feel safe. We firmly believe that only members should benefit from this unique, free venue to buy, sell and trade.

2) You will now be able to edit your own posts. You can edit your posts for about 10 minutes after you've submitted them. I know this has long been a heartburn for members. This will allow you time to correct errors or add additional information.

As always, we'll keep looking for ways to improve your experience. Thank you to all the members that have suggested these two important updates.

Doug Reiser


If I showed up on a shit list I would think I would have better things to do than have my pet monkeys pulling chains

This from a henchman who never once posted memorabilia or probably collects anything except $$$$$$$

"Lurkers" LMFAAAAAOOOOO

Ron Kosiewicz

this is Hilarious
in pic: da rev and Mr.Muggs aka ______________ (fill in the blank)

[Jobu]

I am fairly certain that the card had a reserve that didn't post until there were only a few days left. The bidding took it to $8 k and then the reserve of $17 k posted making that the bid with no high bidder. Basically the card didn't sell because nobody bid the reserve. HA then offered it for sale after the auction.

Originally Posted by Stonepony

How often? Who knows. HA, I believe, is the only one brazen enough to afford themselves that right. A clue may be what happened with the Lenox Cobb: It hung around $8000 , with a sudden bump to a $17,000 bid ( which I believe was a house bid) . It hammers at that price and the next day is for sale at Heritage at that price. Disgusted me, but maybe I'm wrong in how it went down.

[pawpawdiv9]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I am fairly certain that the card had a reserve that didn't post until there were only a few days left. The bidding took it to $8 k and then the reserve of $17 k posted making that the bid with no high bidder. Basically the card didn't sell because nobody bid the reserve. HA then offered it for sale after the auction.

Looks like Heritage has it on the 'wood block' again for bidding 4/21/2016
http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/19...ription-071515

[ullmandds]

some people just think their cards are worth more than reality dictates??

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I am fairly certain that the card had a reserve that didn't post until there were only a few days left. The bidding took it to $8 k and then the reserve of $17 k posted making that the bid with no high bidder. Basically the card didn't sell because nobody bid the reserve. HA then offered it for sale after the auction.

Correct. Fairly common for Heritage. They don't post a reserve until well into the auction. Gives a false impression IMO of where things stand.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by dhernandez

this is Hilarious
in pic: da rev and Mr.Muggs aka ______________ (fill in the blank)

Spot on Brody

I found another picture from the Clown College yearbook of papa with his #1 trained monkey

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Spot on Brody

I found another picture from the Clown College yearbook of papa with his #1 trained monkey

Martin N Lewis was one of the sickest comedy teams in the biz!

[dhernandez]

In light of "The List" being revealed. Does this open letter make everyone feel better?

[Leon]

This thread is over. Start a new one.