1918 Ticket - who got it wrong?

[Scott Garner]

BTW, I purchased one of the game 61 tickets (different game in which was a WaJo 14 inning win) from the 1918 season from Ray Holmes (nice guy BTW) here on net54.

These tickets were removed from a 1918 scrapbook according to Ray and were surrounded by other items related to 1918. Additionally, there is a yet to be released terrific book on Washington Senators tickets coming out that is written by baseball ticket super collector & historian Dan Busby. I have a pre-release copy of this book in hand.

Ray's tickets are consistent with Senators tickets from 1918 based on Team President, font, ticket price, etc. I truly believe these to be from the 1918 season & the rest of the research can be done looking at game log notes....

Ticket dates did not appear on any Nats tickets until the mid- 1920's, BTW. They simply did not exist yet. The only way to nail down years and dates for the earlier Nats games comes from a situation where you are fortunate enough to find that the patron wrote info on the ticket or in a scrapbook...

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Additionally, there is a yet to be released terrific book on Washington Senators tickets coming out that is written by baseball ticket super collector & historian Dan Busby. I have a pre-release copy of this book in hand.

I'd just as soon wait for the movie : )

[rholmes]

Hi Scott!

All true about the tickets and the scrapbook. It was compiled by a guy who worked in DC for basically just over one calendar year, beginning in November of 1917 and ending early in 1919. There were a few random misc items from the late 20's at the very end of the scrapbook, but literally everything else represented his one year living and working in Washington-- theater tickets, rent receipts, written correspondence, telegrams, etc. Not a percentage of doubt in my mind that the Senators tix were from 1918.

[Shoeless Moe]

Since his reply was a bit long, I'm just going to cut and paste and you can read it, if it turns out I was wrong, I apologize to him:

"you just have to refer to the original schedule when determining game numbers. Each game for the season was assigned a game number before the season started. 1-77. Those game numbers never change no matter what happens. Game 2 is still game #2 even if game #1 gets rained out. But if you look at retrosheet....game 2 is going to look like game 1 because game #1 (rain out) isn't shown. think about a season ticket booklet with each ticket in the book having a game number on it...game 1 is for 1st scheduled game....game #2 is for 2nd scheduled game, etc. The game # and corresponding date is shown on the back cover. if game 2 is rained out...you don't use game #2----you jump right to game #3. Same with box office tickets...they printed games 1-77 for each of the 77 scheduled home games. game #11 was determined before the season started....

Take for instance the opening day 1923 yankees ticket shown Its dated and has game #1 on it. If that game had been rained out you could have used that ticket for any other game in 1923 but when you went to the game the next day... they were selling game #2 tickets. (with a different date on them.... because game # 2 was scheduled for the next day)Looking at retrosheet.... its going to be the 1st game but its not game #1...its game #2. You have to factor rainouts in when determining game number. The guy with a season ticket book uses game #2 ...because he is at HOME GAME #2 as determined by the original AL schedule. The game # never changes. It is preassigned and used the entire season. Tickets were printed before the season started. In this case... game #4 ticket and game #6 ticket were not used because of rain outs. So when you count to the 11th home game played---it was actually home game #13.

So opening day....they sell out and use all the game #1 tickets. everybody is ready for the game to start...it rains...they go home. Game #1 is done. Game #1 tickets are gone.


(People can use their rain check for a later game but game #1 never happened. ) Its not on retrosheet. In your scenario...they sell game #1 tickets again the next day? Absolutely not... they sell game #2 tickets because its the 2nd scheduled game. Actual games played has nothing to do with the game # on the ticket. Just always consult the original schedule ---not the log of games played.

for example, the back of the 1928 yankees season ticket shows each scheduled game for the year 1-77 and the corresponding affiliated date. No matter what happened during the course of the year...rain outs, makeups, etc. those game numbers and associated dates did not change. Game #11 was played on May 5th and game #11 tickets were sold and used on that date. Even if games 1-10 were rained out-- May 5th was game 11. Even though it would have been the 1st home game actually played that year.

for instance, attached are a dated and undated copy of a ticket to lou gehrigs last game on 4/30/39. Both tickets say Game #8 on them. go to retrosheet and look at what "game number" that game was "actually". It was the 5th game played that year but tickets used on 4/30/39 were the game #8 tickets because there were 3 rainouts prior to the game being played. They didn't sell dated tickets with game #8 on them and sell game #5 undated tickets --it was all game #8. it was established before the season (when all of the tickets were printed) that 4/30/39 was game #8. If game #7 started at 1:00 pm and after numerous rain delays gets called due to darkness at 8:00 pm... they didn't say, Oh crap...we have to run down to the printing company and print up 50,000 game 7 tickets for tomorrow because this game 7 didnt count and tomorrow is going to be game 7 again because its going to be our actual 7th home game again!" It was just game 8 the next day"

so there you have it.

[Scott Garner]

Paul & all on net54,

Thanks for posting that today.
The second seller David Maus also reached out to me with the same explanation last night and this morning.

Following his logic and checking the original Nats schedule for 1918, I must say that I concur with his belief that game 11, did in fact, coincide with the Ruth- Walter Johnson game that he referenced in his auction. The two rainout or inclement weather cancellations that occurred in Wash early in their schedule in 1918 created the disparity in the result.

I must say that I'm always amazed at how much there still to learn in this hobby even when you've been at it for so long. I continue to learn every day...
Thanks to all that contribute to the journey.

[nolemmings]

Still confusing. I take it then that when make up games were played you did not and perhaps could not use a ticket number other than what had been held as a prior rained-out game?
For the seller's reasoning to prevail, the original schedule would have looked like this:
HOME:
1. NY
2. NY
3. NY
4. PHI
5. PHI
6. PHI
7. PHI
8. PHI
ROAD for 10 games
HOME again
9. Bos
10. Bos
11. Bos---ticket used for game 11, even if two were rained out
12. Cle
13. Cle

So they had a 5 game set with Philly at the beginning of the year, with two rained out? Or was one or more of the rainouts just made up right away? I don't know, certainly could be. It just seems odd to have a five game series, but hey, maybe that's how they rolled back then.

[Shoeless Moe]

Agree, I'm a bit confused as well. I still would think the only real way of knowing for certain is if someone has a 1918 Washington Schedule. Not one from the internet, but an actual schedule from back then.

I know there are a lot of schedule collectors on the board, maybe someone has one.

[nolemmings]

Might also be found in a Spalding or Reach guide, or similar periodical.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Still confusing. I take it then that when make up games were played you did not and perhaps could not use a ticket number other than what had been held as a prior rained-out game?
For the seller's reasoning to prevail, the original schedule would have looked like this:
HOME:
1. NY
2. NY
3. NY
4. PHI
5. PHI
6. PHI
7. PHI
8. PHI
ROAD for 10 games
HOME again
9. Bos
10. Bos
11. Bos---ticket used for game 11, even if two were rained out
12. Cle
13. Cle

So they had a 5 game set with Philly at the beginning of the year, with two rained out? Or was one or more of the rainouts just made up right away? I don't know, certainly could be. It just seems odd to have a five game series, but hey, maybe that's how they rolled back then.

Hi Todd,
The ticket patron would use ticket 11 for the 11th game on the original scheduled game of the year at Wash (date is 5/9/18 vs. BOS on original schedule). regardless of what occurred prior to that. As it was, there were two dates that were not played on the schedule due to inclement weather- Game #4 4/18/18 Rain out & Game 6 4/20/18- Rain out.

I hope this helps clarify.

This is even more clear because this occurred early in the 1918 season

[nolemmings]

So humor me please . Suppose that Philly set was only three games, and two were washed out but immediately made up in the next two days. Tickets 4 and 6 are considered spent, even though those games were rained out. Now I go to the make up games. Do/can I use tickets 7 and 8 for games that were not on the schedule originally? And if so, game 7 tickets will presumably not be available for the first game of the following series--the one originally scheduled against Boston. That ticket will be considered spent, right? Can I use my game 7 for the makeup game and you use yours for the first Boston game?

EDITED to add: FWIW, I would guess that Philly set was a four gamer, Thursday through Monday with Sunday off due to Blue laws, and that Tuesday was a makeup game.

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Todd,
The ticket patron would use ticket 11 for the 11th game on the original scheduled game of the year at Wash (date is 5/9/18 vs. BOS on original schedule). regardless of what occurred prior to that. As it was, there were two dates that were not played on the schedule due to inclement weather- Game #4 4/18/18 Rain out & Game 6 4/20/18- Rain out.

I hope this helps clarify.

This is even more clear because this occurred early in the 1918 season

[megalimey]

here is some more info
In the event of a rain out the rescheduled game is part of a single admission double header, Tickets for the game originally scheduled to be played on the double header the actual game date ticket will have priority over the rain check and the rain check can either be: (i) "exchanged" for the same priced ticket for the single admission double header, subject to availability; or (ii) exchanged for a same priced ticket for any regular season home game of the Club within 12 months of the originally scheduled Game, subject to availability.

, ticket would have to be "exchanged" and not able to be just presented at turnstiles ,this was done to avoid over capacity or have two people fighting over the same seat imagine the chaos if that was the case

[megalimey]

Great summation , 100% accurate , I co authored the article posted on PSA website on undated Yankees ticket , and PSA Yankee ticket submissions have increased 400% since article posted , its amazing how many people make the same mistake , counting down home games played,
here some thing many people do not know
if you go to retro original schedules here is the link
http://www.retrosheet.org/schedule/

scroll down to the years which are in blue
you can download any particular year you will need a zip file opener
as you stated in 1939 there were several rainouts
as you can see they do show those games I have included a partial segment of 1939 Yankees are listed NYA
"19390417","0","Mon","PIT","NL",1,"CIN","NL",1,"D","",""
"19390417","0","Mon","NYA","AL",1,"WS1","AL",1,"D","Rain","19390629"
"19390418","0","Tue","NY1","NL",1,"BRO","NL",1,"D","",""
"19390418","0","Tue","PHI","NL",1,"BSN","NL",1,"D","Rain","19390709"
"19390418","0","Tue","CIN","NL",2,"CHN","NL",1,"D","Rain","19390702"
"19390418","0","Tue","CHA","AL",1,"DET","AL",1,"D","",""
"19390418","0","Tue","BOS","AL",1,"NYA","AL",2,"D","Rain","19390708"
"19390418","0","Tue","WS1","AL",2,"PHA","AL",1,"D","Rain","19390706"
"19390418","0","Tue","SLN","NL",1,"PIT","NL",2,"D","",""
"19390418","0","Tue","CLE","AL",1,"SLA","AL",1,"D","Rain","19390708"
"19390419","0","Wed","NY1","NL",2,"BRO","NL",2,"D","Rain","19390708"
"19390419","1","Wed","PHI","NL",2,"BSN","NL",2,"A","",""
"19390419","2","Wed","PHI","NL",3,"BSN","NL",3,"D","Rain","19390816"
"19390419","0","Wed","CIN","NL",3,"CHN","NL",2,"D","Cold","19390808"
"19390419","0","Wed","CHA","AL",2,"DET","AL",2,"D","Cold","19390701"
"19390419","0","Wed","BOS","AL",2,"NYA","AL",3,"D","Rain","19390709"
"19390419","0","Wed","WS1","AL",3,"PHA","AL",2,"D","Wet grounds","19390708"
"19390419","0","Wed","SLN","NL",2,"PIT","NL",3,"D","Cold","19390709"
"19390419","0","Wed","CLE","AL",2,"SLA","AL",2,"D","Cold","19390709"
"19390420","0","Thu","NY1","NL",3,"BRO","NL",3,"D","",""
"19390420","0","Thu","PHI","NL",4,"BSN","NL",4,"D","",""
"19390420","0","Thu","CIN","NL",4,"CHN","NL",3,"D","Rain","19390809"
"19390420","0","Thu","CHA","AL",3,"DET","AL",3,"D","",""
"19390420","0","Thu","BOS","AL",3,"NYA","AL",4,"D","",""

[pherbener]

Thanks for the info David. For original schedules prior to 1917 I use The Sporting News archives.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/

Here's an example of the 1911 National League Schedule.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL5707009.PDF

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by pherbener

Thanks for the info David. For original schedules prior to 1917 I use The Sporting News archives.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/

Here's an example of the 1911 National League Schedule.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL5707009.PDF

How do you find the schedule each year has many PDF do you have to check each one ??

[pherbener]

Originally Posted by megalimey

How do you find the schedule each year has many PDF do you have to check each one ??

Most of the schedules were posted in the third week of April and the PDF file corresponds with the page number. There's a table of contents that helps sometimes. I'm used to using it so it's fairly quick for me. Here's a link to that 1916 Giants Schedule we were talking about showing game 37 was game 2 July 4th.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL6708016.pdf