Ode to Pre-War Football Cardboard

[th38larg]

These items aren't from catalogued sets, but I think they still have a place in this thread. These pieces are all from the estate of Geoffrey Keyes who was a quarterback at West Point and went on to become a high-ranking commander during WWII.

The first pic is Keyes in 1909 the and the second is the kickoff of the 1910 Army-Navy game.

The third piece is a scorecard from the 1909 Army-Harvard game. Army's Eugene Byrne suffered a fatal neck injury that led to his death a day later.

[jefferyepayne]

They absolutely do, Peter! There are many, many early pro and college stars that don't have cards but have super looking cabinets and vintage photos. Here are a few I have:


Edgar Allan Poe - This 1889 All-American in football was named after his grandfather's cousin ... the famous poet. His brother is in the Mayo football set.


William P. Graves - Yale football player who was an early football coach of the University of North Carolina.


Dutch Sternaman - Co-founder of the Chicago Bears along with George Halas


Willie Heston - Michigan All-American who was an early 1900s pro player. He is in the 1955 Topps AA football card set.


1912 Jim Thorpe with backfield mates Arcasas, Welch, Powell.


Thorpe making a tackle for the Canton Bulldogs.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

One of my favorite pre-war players is Ken Strong. He was a 4x First Team All-Pro and 1x Second Team All-Pro halfback. He is most famous for scoring 17 points in the infamous "sneaker game" in 1934 when the NY Giants defeated the Chicago Bears for the NFL Championship while wearing sneakers because the field was icy. Strong is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Most football collectors know his 1955 Topps AA card but nothing more. Here are some of the others cards / items for Strong.


Ultra rare card of Strong from the multi-sport Rogers Peet set. This card is from his days with the Staten Island Stapletons, a now defunct NFL team.


1927 W560 playing card of Ken Strong while at NYU


1934 Diamond Matchbook of Ken Strong


Team photo of NYU football team. Strong second from left in top row.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Wow - great Ken Strong items! A Staten Island Stapletons football card - I had no idea that existed.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Wow - great Ken Strong items! A Staten Island Stapletons football card - I had no idea that existed.

Thanks John! The Rogers Peet cards in general are difficult to find. There are four football cards in the set. The Grange is the biggie with Strong #2.

While it's not pre-war, should have posted this baby with my Ken Strong stuff.



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff. Aren't you forgetting the most obvious Strong card? Let me know if you need me to post it.

[Footballdude]

Just wanna thank everyone for posting these pre-war football items. They are all fabulous. It's these types of items that keep me scouring the antique shops, hoping to score something relatively unknown.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Footballdude

Just wanna thank everyone for posting these pre-war football items. They are all fabulous. It's these types of items that keep me scouring the antique shops, hoping to score something relatively unknown.

+1

There is a lot of pre-war stuff out there if you hunt for it. Some of it is really cool. One of my collection "subsets" is what I call the "football players in another sport" subset. Here are some examples I have.


George Halas playing for the NY Yankees briefly in 1919. Unfortunately for him but fortunately for football fans, he hurt his hip and felt his baseball career was over so he switched to football.



Walter Camp not only played football but also baseball at Yale. He is the tall fellow in the hat in the back.



I've shown this one before but it fits here. John Heisman as a baseball coach at Buchtel (now called University of Akron).



Nagurski in his wrestling uniform but a football stance. I believe Nags is the only person in both the Pro Football and Pro Wrestling HOF.



Football HOFer Greasy Neale



Ernie Nevers with the St. Louis Browns MLB team.



Football HOFer Benny Friedman playing 3rd base for U of Michigan

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Great stuff! Neale's career is a like a thread that runs through 2 of my favorite pieces of history. He coached Glenn Presnell with the Ironton Tanks who later folded, but had some key players picked up by the Spartans and then later coached the 47-49 Eagles who appeared in 3 title games led by the great Steve Van Buren.

Halas played baseball? That's crazy - I didn't know that. Is that some kind of hand cut card? How rare are those?

[Footballdude]

Ironton Tanks! Now that's how you name a football team.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Halas played baseball? That's crazy - I didn't know that. Is that some kind of hand cut card? How rare are those?

That's an old photo. Occasionally you will see photos with fancy edging like this one has. It was done like that on purpose and isn't hand cut.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

A few other miscellaneous items from the '30s.

In 1937, Donut Corp put out a series that I believe was on the side or bottom of their Donut boxes. It has famous athletes including two football players: Red Grange and Knute Rockne:


Donut Corp. Thrilling Moments Series - Red Grange


Donut Corp. Thrilling Moments Series - Knute Rockne


Also in 1937, Dixie Cup put out a series of dixie cup ice cream lids with sports figures on them. Two are football players: Bronko Nagurski and Sammy Baugh. There are also premiums of these players that you could acquire and put in an album.


Bronko Nagurski Dixie Lid


Sammy Baugh Dixie Lid


Finally, Denby Cigar put out a premium of the world champion Chicago Bears in 1932:



The back has a letter to pro football fans:



Here is a companion piece to this premium and letter:



jeff

[Publius]

Rocking it Jeff!

[clamendo]

We'll I was getting bored so I decided to start building the '26 Stat backs.

[jefferyepayne]

Great additions, Carl! Where are you on the master set of these cards across blank, ad, and bio backs?

jeff

[clamendo]

I think 23 ... Probably won't chase the blank backs. I believe there are 1925(2), 1926 Ad(14), 1926 Stat(14), 1926 Blank(14), 1927 stat(3 known), and Red Grange(3 known)


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[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by clamendo

I think 23 ... Probably won't chase the blank backs. I believe there are 1925(2), 1926 Ad(14), 1926 Stat(14), 1926 Blank(14), 1927 stat(3 known), and Red Grange(3 known)


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Thanks Carl. What are the known 1925s and 1927s?

jeff

[clamendo]

Not too much, I have relayed what I have actually seen. The 25s were blank backed and the 27s where a recent discovery with a copyright date difference.


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[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Not too much, I have relayed what I have actually seen. The 25s were blank backed and the 27s where a recent discovery with a copyright date difference.


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How do you know the 25s are actually from 1925 if the backs are blank? Which players are known to have 1927 copyrights?

jeff

[clamendo]

1927s are on the SGC card registry


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[clamendo]

There are two 25s (non-fb) without blank backs and a letter asking one of the guys for permission to use his image. The letter was dated 1925.


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[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by clamendo

There are two 25s (non-fb) without blank backs and a letter asking one of the guys for permission to use his image. The letter was dated 1925.


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Ah, ok. So no know football ones from 1925. Sounds like these are pre-production samples to get players to agree to allow use of their image.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Speaking of Pottsville

I can't get a SGC 96 on a 50s card, Randy Stuckemeyer had a great eye


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Thanks Carl - I definitely have an appreciation for the Berry and Ernst cards now. I'm about halfway through the book: http://www.amazon.com/Breaker-Boys-G.../dp/1933060352

Interestingly, Berry's wikipedia page shows a Goudey baseball card: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Berry

[TanksAndSpartans]

I was looking for something new to read and stumbled on Benny Friedman’s biography written by Murray Greenberg. It was great - I highly recommend it. I thought Sammy Baugh was the first great forward passer, so this was definitely an eyeopener for me. The book had lots of great Big Ten and NFL history in there too. Of course, it was from the perspective of Friedman’s career, but you definitely got a feel for who the other great teams and players were at the time. Heck, even the Ironton Tanks were mentioned. From the Chicle set alone, I recall the following players mentioned: Molenda (Friedman's Michigan teammate), Clark, Kenneally, Presnell, Strong, Rockne (coached famous 1930 game against Giants to raise money for unemployment relief during the depression (Giants won 22-0!)), Battles, Edwards, Kelly, Hinkle, Burnett, Nagurski, Masterson (maybe), Hap Moran (matchbooks).

And from a trivia perspective - who knew Red Grange had a brother who played for the Bears? Not me.

Back in post #43, Jeff did a great write up on the Spalding set, but I think it’s really interesting that most (all?) of the population of cards can be traced to relatively recent finds (90 and 96?)

Here is a circa 2005 net54 thread where at least one collector was a little skeptical because the finds were so recent. Are collectors mostly ok with that now?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t=78201&page=2

I'm guessing I may not be alone, but when I looked over the checklist, I didn't recognize many names. College football was way more popular than the fledgling NFL so it wasn't surprising that for:

PEGGY FLOURNOY, ED GARBISCH, HOMER HAZEL, and SWEDE OBERLANDER

I didn't find any NFL record.

Similarly:

WALTER KOPPISCH, ED MCGINLEY, BO MCMILLAN, HARRY STUHLDREHER, BRICK MULLER, and EDDIE TYRON

had short NFL careers.

Two players contributed to NFL championship teams:

ED WEIR, 3 seasons in NFL incl. the 26 champion Yellow Jacket team

GEORGE “Wildcat” WILSON, 4 seasons in NFL incl. the 28 champion Steam Roller team; For more info on Wilson, see Jeff’s post #6 (different set)

And of course Grange, Nevers, and Friedman (better late than never) went on to the HOF.

Jeff/Carl and everyone have already done a tremendous job posting images, but is there any way I could see the bio backs for Friedman and Wilson? I'd love to read those. Thanks.

[revmoran]

Garbish married daughter of Walter P. Chrysler so he was a man about town after his military service. Ed Weir returned to Nebraska and was a coach and athletic director at the University - I believe there is a stadium named in his honor. Oberlander coached at Ohio State, Dartmouth, and Wesleyan and then became a physician. Muller became an orthopedic surgeon; in 1956 he served as the Head Team Physician for the United States Olympic Team.

Jerry Ford followed a similar path, turning down a pro offer and then coaching at Yale while he got his law degree. Here is Wilson's 26 card and back

[jefferyepayne]

Unfortunately some paper loss makes it hard to read but here is the Friedman Spalding back.



jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Picked up this Detroit News premium of Dutch Clark the other day because 1) I thought the coloring looked cool and 2) it's signed by him!



Also a team premium of the 1936 Detroit Lions ... they were the defending NFL Champs.



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks guys!

Mike, thanks for bringing some of those players to life - many of them were just names to me. I always enjoy reading about them. And nice George Wilson card - pretty cool how they mention Wilson’s Wildcats - I understand that to be a reference to L.A.’s entry in the Pyle/Grange AFL for the 26 season.

Jeff, awesome items! Thanks for the Friedman back - having read his bio, I know Bennie Oosterbaan was his teammate and primary target for his passes at Michigan, so I’m guessing the formation mentioned is a reference to him - although no idea what the formation is or exactly what it says. And referencing Nebraska rather than Michigan - that’s a bad mistake

I wonder if the Friedman card was printed after the Wilson because the Wilson card mentions the 25 season as the most recent, but the Friedman card I’m not sure as it mentions both 25 and 26. If the card is from prior to the 26 season, that would make it an undergraduate card of Friedman as he joined the pros (Cleveland Bulldogs) in 27.

Love the Lions items - lots of former Spartans in the mix. I always felt bad Father Lumpkin wasn’t on that team, but I see Presnell, Clark, Gutowsky, G. Christensen, Emerson, and Randolph all there. Any idea where it was taken? - looks like a rooftop - wonder if it was inside a stadium…..

[jefferyepayne]

The Lions were a great team in the mid 30s! What a star studded lineup they had.

And for you Father Lumpkin fans ...



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Awesome! Thanks Jeff. I've never seen that photo - by all accounts I've read, Lumpkin was quite a character and playing without socks was one of his.... "quirks" - this picture confirms it. (And he wasn't bald as some sources have said - just helmetless )

And that looks like coach Potsy Clark he's with - here are a few pages from an instructional football guide Potsy wrote in the 30s (lots of these are available on eBay inexpensively - I liked looking at the single wing plays)

Looks like coaching aged Potsy some - any idea what year that photo is from? My guess would be Father Lumpkin is wearing a Portsmouth Spartans jersey, but the colors look dark - even in b/w, I wouldn't think the yellow/gold on purple would look that way.

[jefferyepayne]

You have a good eye, John. That is Lumpkin with Coach Clark. I don't have the photo handy but I think I recall it's stamped either 1930 or 1931.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Anybody pick up the Pudge Heffelfinger cabinet in the recent Lelands Auction? That item was a killer! Here are a couple of Heffelfinger items I have.







jeff

[revmoran]

[jefferyepayne]

Ooooooooooooh. I need that one, Mike! Nice.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

I didn't know that auction was going on - several interesting items. I wonder if the Maroons collection includes game film that could actually be watched and transferred to a digital format - I'd sure like to see that.... http://www.lelands.com/Auction/Aucti...ons-Collection

And a Nagurski college program where he is listed as:

22 Nagurski e.

I thought it would've sold higher:

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/Aucti...l-Game-Program

[obiwin]

The Lelands auction had some really nice Redskins stuff, though, most of it was game-used stuff, which is not really my collecting interest, especially at those realized prices, but still a lot of fun to look at.

The team panoramic photos lot of 4 was nice, but I had 2 of the 4, so I passed, but the realized price was lower than I expected, so maybe I should've paid it more attention.

Speaking of stratospheric prices, several pre-war Boston Redskins items (schedules and season ticket holder letters) on Ebay yesterday and today went for $1000+! I'm really curious to know if either of the two bidders who drove it to those levels are on this board or not. I may need to find a new collecting focus. LOL.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Boston-Redsk...-/331607143555
(check out the seller's sold items to see the others)

[revmoran]

I think this is an early Redskins media guide



And this letter - a decade later



This is from the 4th game in Redskins franchise history - it's the only copy I've seen in 20+ years of looking

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

I wonder if the Maroons collection includes game film that could actually be watched and transferred to a digital format - I'd sure like to see that....

My bet is no. All of the stuff in that auction lot looked like stuff from the reunion years (60s and 70s) so my bet is the film is either audio or video of interviews with Maroons talking about their playing days. Zacko did a bunch of those during that time period and they are floating around out there.

Nothing "period" in that lot so I passed on it.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by revmoran

This is from the 4th game in Redskins franchise history - it's the only copy I've seen in 20+ years of looking

Wow, didn't know that one was so hard to find! Nice image of your Dad, though, so glad you found it.

jeff

[obiwin]

Wow. That's some really nice early Redskins stuff. I think that's the first time I've seen any Boston Braves material. Even cooler that it's your dad. Thanks for sharing!

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by obiwin

Wow. That's some really nice early Redskins stuff. I think that's the first time I've seen any Boston Braves material. Even cooler that it's your dad. Thanks for sharing!

The Redskins moved from Boston because they were consistently outdrawn by the AFL's Boston Shamrocks who won the AFL championship in 1936. Here are a couple of pictures of players from that team. I love their logo!





jeff

[obiwin]

Those Shamrocks uniforms are great.

I'm not well versed on attendance figures in Boston, but George Preston Marshall already had strong DC ties prior to moving the franchise to Washington that at least also contributed to his decision to move the franchise to DC. He already owned a bunch of laundries in DC that were started by his father, and even owned a short-lived Washington DC based professional basketball team prior to getting his NFL franchise.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by obiwin

Those Shamrocks uniforms are great.

I'm not well versed on attendance figures in Boston, but George Preston Marshall already had strong DC ties prior to moving the franchise to Washington that at least also contributed to his decision to move the franchise to DC. He already owned a bunch of laundries in DC that were started by his father, and even owned a short-lived Washington DC based professional basketball team prior to getting his NFL franchise.

He did have DC ties. But the tell tale sign that the Shamrocks were a big reason is that he moved the NFL Championship game in 1936 out of Boston because he wanted more attendance and didn't feel he would get it in Boston.

jeff

[obiwin]

Thanks for sharing. Learned something new tonight.

Here's a comparison of the two franchises' attendance figures:

http://www.profootballarchives.com/1936aflbos.html
http://www.profootballarchives.com/1936nflbos.html

Looks like it was smart to move the NFL championship to NYC in 1936 and to DC in 1937
http://www.profootballarchives.com/1937nflwas.html

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Jeff- Thanks for those Shamrocks photos, i have never seen any before. Didn't Ebbetts Field Flannels sell some Shamrock recreations recently?

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

My bet is no. All of the stuff in that auction lot looked like stuff from the reunion years (60s and 70s) so my bet is the film is either audio or video of interviews with Maroons talking about their playing days. Zacko did a bunch of those during that time period and they are floating around out there.

Nothing "period" in that lot so I passed on it.

jeff

Thanks Jeff - that makes sense. I suspected the same - only the film jumped out at me.

I saw the Redskins schedule and it reminded me of this item I noticed a while back:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1930-Portsmo...item25880c959c

I wouldn't know how to price any of these - I've only ever bid on cards.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

I saw the Redskins schedule and it reminded me of this item I noticed a while back:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1930-Portsmo...item25880c959c

I wouldn't know how to price any of these - I've only ever bid on cards.

That's a pretty cool pocket schedule and anything from a team's first year usually sells for a premium but that price looks too high to me for any NFL schedule.

Here is a 1927 Pottsville Maroons pocket schedule I have:



jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Charley Barrett was a 2x consensus AA for Cornell and led them to an undefeated National Championship in 1915. He was widely regarded as the best player in college football that year.





Tragically he was injured in WWI during a ship explosion and died from a related illness in 1924.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Speaking of the Redskins, picked this 1915 photo of Lone Star Dietz up at the National.



jeff

[obiwin]

Thanks for sharing! That's a really great photo of Lone Star. Now I'm regretting not going to the National this year!

Out of curiosity, is it a RPPC? If so, is it trimmed with some glue and black paper on the back as if it had been torn from a scrapbook?

I have several other Lone Star items that I've slowly pieced together over the years that all have these similar traits. I'm thinking they all once were part of one person's collection that got broken up.