Mastro/Allen

[Giants00]

I was wondering as a naive question if there was a way that we could exchange some jail time for a complete accounting of all the knowingly fake stuff that was sold. It is clear to me that all parties are still in denial about the scale of what they have done. Jail time to me offers no guarantee that at the end we will be any closer to knowing the scope and scale of the mess.
What i personally experienced was the shill bidding (bids always went to the max), and sometimes items disappeared at the 12th hour (after close). What I also know is that there were many questionable and altered jerseys they always tried to pass off as real. What I would love is that if Bill or Doug is really remorseful, let them actually tell the truth instead of lying.
As an aside, many years ago an employee was stealing. His lawyer told me something simple and brilliant. You will never met a successful unlikable con man. You will never know why and your only hope is know how much,
Dan Scheinman, jersey collector

[murphusa]

Write the judge and or the prosacutor

[hcv123]

I KNOW I was shilled in at least 1 auction (presumably many more). I was outbid on a lot of unopened Clemente showing on top packs late into the auction. I ended up bidding on and winning a couple of other lots as a result of being outbid on the Clemente packs. When I woke up the next morning to check the auction, I was listed as the high bidder on the Clemente packs! When I called and complained that I had been outbid according to the computer the night before, I was told I made a mistake. I said there was no mistake on my part. It was very clear there was a bid placed and withdrawn. I refused to buy the packs. They appeared in their next auction. Years later I spoke with the guy who won them in the next auction ( I believe he is a board member) who also had noticed some funny business with Mastro.

[William Farrell]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I KNOW I was shilled in at least 1 auction (presumably many more). I was outbid on a lot of unopened Clemente showing on top packs late into the auction. I ended up bidding on and winning a couple of other lots as a result of being outbid on the Clemente packs. When I woke up the next morning to check the auction, I was listed as the high bidder on the Clemente packs! When I called and complained that I had been outbid according to the computer the night before, I was told I made a mistake. I said there was no mistake on my part. It was very clear there was a bid placed and withdrawn. I refused to buy the packs. They appeared in their next auction. Years later I spoke with the guy who won them in the next auction ( I believe he is a board member) who also had noticed some funny business with Mastro.

This is why I have always refused to participate in auctions that don't have a finite ending.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Giants00

His lawyer told me something simple and brilliant. You will never met a successful unlikable con man. You will never know why and your only hope is know how much,
Dan Scheinman, jersey collector

That's something worth contemplating. Not commenting on their crimes, but I spent a great evening at the National, along with several other collector friends, talking with Doug and Mark over drinks. Yes, Doug was extremely likable. I have to admit - that time was assuredly more enjoyable than it would have been spending it talking with a very honest asshole.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's something worth contemplating. Not commenting on their crimes, but I spent a great evening at the National, along with several other collector friends, talking with Doug and Mark over drinks. Yes, Doug was extremely likable. I have to admit - that time was assuredly more enjoyable than it would have been spending it talking with a very honest asshole.

If you frame the options as a likeable con man or an honest asshole, you've truly set yourself up for a tough outcome and left out the possibility of a likeable honest person and of course the worst - a dishonest asshole!

That all said - many people who commit illegal acts are not (imo) bad people, just make some ridiculously poor decisions from a selfish, fearful or angry place. Unfortunately on the other side of those decisions are the people who have been victimized.

[William Farrell]

Originally Posted by hcv123

That all said - many people who commit illegal acts are not (imo) bad people, just make some ridiculously poor decisions from a selfish, fearful or angry place.

How about a decades long litany of illegal, unethical, and overtly fraudulent acts to an alarmingly incalculable degree? Would that be classified as simply "poor decisions".

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by hcv123

If you frame the options as a likeable con man or an honest asshole, you've truly set yourself up for a tough outcome and left out the possibility of a likeable honest person and of course the worst - a dishonest asshole!

You did that, not me.

[HRBAKER]

If I'm dealing with an ahole, I'd just as soon know it.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's something worth contemplating. Not commenting on their crimes, but I spent a great evening at the National, along with several other collector friends, talking with Doug and Mark over drinks. Yes, Doug was extremely likable. I have to admit - that time was assuredly more enjoyable than it would have been spending it talking with a very honest asshole.

My guess and its just a guess that hanging out with Willie Sutton, John Dillinger or Jesse James over a few beers would have been fun too
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

My web site
stinsonsports.com

[William Farrell]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

My guess and its just a guess that hanging out with Willie Sutton, John Dillinger or Jesse James over a few beers would have been fun too
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

My web site
stinsonsports.com

Fun, as long as you didn't throw good money after bad on an endless array of deliberately misrepresented, fraudulent merchandise. That's never any fun, no matter how entertaining and enchanting the con-men are, IMO.
All that fake sentiment, phony cheer and overly gregarious goodwill is only a well planned distracting while they search for the soft spot to stick the knife in and gut your wallet, and that's all it is.

[Runscott]

My comment was straight-forward, in direct response to the OP's lawyer's bit of wisdom. I've re-read it and don't see anything wrong with it - it basically confirms what the OP's lawyer said. If any of you choose to read into it that I support Doug's behavior, then go ahead and be delusional - I can't help you with that.

It's easy to get up on a soapbox in a situation like this, but it took a lot of people like us to make Mastro successful, and we have been talking about this for a long, long time, all the while continuing to keep his business afloat while we knew shilling was going on and items were being misrepresented, and then there's the trimmed Wagner thing, which was kind of a big deal as well. Lot of turning the other way prior to realization that jail-time was inevitable. Now there's barely any room on the soapbox.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

My guess and its just a guess that hanging out with Willie Sutton, John Dillinger or Jesse James over a few beers would have been fun too
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

My web site
stinsonsports.com

John Reed wrote an excellent book about traveling with Pancho Villa. I'm no journalist, but I had never met Doug or Mark, and wanted to see what they were like in person. And yes, I would rather have a few beers with Jesse James or John Dillinger than other more honest people I can think of.

I'm wondering how that statement is going to get twisted into my condoning murder or bank robbery. Okay, through wondering.

[shelly]

Let me very clear. When you break the law 99 percent of the time you know exactly what you are doing.
All the people that thought Mastro was god now wish him in hell. Doug Allen same thing. They deserve what they get. The only thing that really upsets me is that PSA and JSA are part of all this.
Just a side note. Yes I am speaking from being one of those people who where arrested.
Many of you still did business with Allen even though you knew he was a bad guy. This hobby is like the house of pain. The more you get your butt kicked the more you like it.

[autograf]

For many stuff.outweighs.all

[William Farrell]

Originally Posted by Runscott

then there's the trimmed Wagner thing, which was kind of a big deal as well. Lot of turning the other way prior to realization that jail-time was inevitable. Now there's barely any room on the soapbox.

The trimmed Wagner was no longer a secret from the day when PSA slabbed it, grading it NM/MT. Many potential buyers of that card that were sent Xeroxes (no scanners in those days) of the card by up to a dozen different people trying to middle a deal without having to lay out the $20 or $25K the owner wanted for the oversized T-206 with the wavy edge and blunted corners.

As soon as THE card appeared to the public eye PSA graded with four perfect corners and the wavy edge guillotined off (yes, it was chop/impact cut with a long blade, a hammer strike on the opposite from business end of the blade) the cat was out of the bag.

It came as no surprise, really. Stretched and whacked, then bleached T-206 cards were the ordure of the day, and the middle-men trying to turn the Wagner went overboard stressing the sales pitch, "It's oversized. Use your imagination".

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by William Farrell

The trimmed Wagner was no longer a secret from the day when PSA slabbed it, grading it NM/MT. Many potential buyers of that card that were sent Xeroxes (no scanners in those days) of the card by up to a dozen different people trying to middle a deal without having to lay out the $20 or $25K the owner wanted for the oversized T-206 with the wavy edge and blunted corners.

As soon as THE card appeared to the public eye PSA graded with four perfect corners and the wavy edge guillotined off (yes, it was chop/impact cut with a long blade, a hammer strike on the opposite from business end of the blade) the cat was out of the bag.

It came as no surprise, really. Stretched and whacked, then bleached T-206 cards were the ordure of the day, and the middle-men trying to turn the Wagner went overboard stressing the sales pitch, "It's oversized. Use your imagination".

William, I don't know how long you have been reading this forum, but as unreal as it might now seem, we had many forum members who believed the T206 Wagner might not have been trimmed. It was flabbergasting to have to read such posts for ten years.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by William Farrell

The trimmed Wagner was no longer a secret from the day when PSA slabbed it, grading it NM/MT. Many potential buyers of that card that were sent Xeroxes (no scanners in those days) of the card by up to a dozen different people trying to middle a deal without having to lay out the $20 or $25K the owner wanted for the oversized T-206 with the wavy edge and blunted corners.

As soon as THE card appeared to the public eye PSA graded with four perfect corners and the wavy edge guillotined off (yes, it was chop/impact cut with a long blade, a hammer strike on the opposite from business end of the blade) the cat was out of the bag.

It came as no surprise, really. Stretched and whacked, then bleached T-206 cards were the ordure of the day, and the middle-men trying to turn the Wagner went overboard stressing the sales pitch, "It's oversized. Use your imagination".

The problem is they bought the pitch. That is what this business is all about.

[SikSyko]

Originally Posted by Runscott

we had many forum members who believed the T206 Wagner might not have been trimmed.

I thought it was cut down from a uncut sheet/strip from the start. Did not know about the over sized one that was around.

[Runscott]

I think both are from the history of the same card

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[William Farrell]

Originally Posted by Runscott

William, I don't know how long you have been reading this forum, but as unreal as it might now seem, we had many forum members who believed the T206 Wagner might not have been trimmed. It was flabbergasting to have to read such posts for ten years.

Before the book came out and the general hobby knowledge about the sliced and diced Wagner became common-place, I imagine you would have to have been offered the pre-trimmed card or known of someone who was offered the card and seen a copy of the Xerox that was circulating at the time prior to its PSA grading.

When the card showed up PSA slabbed, those that had seen or had a copy of the Xerox for purchase contemplation would have been among the first to realize that this was the wavy edged, blunt cornered Wagner and someone had purchased it and indeed "used their imagination".

Of course, it took the hobbyists who never saw the Xerox quite awhile to absorb the reality.

[William Farrell]

Originally Posted by Giants00

What i personally experienced was the shill bidding (bids always went to the max), and sometimes items disappeared at the 12th hour (after close).

The difference is that if the shill bidding is done in Texas, it's not illegal, it's just unethical and highway robbery, IMO. Texas is the only state where an auction house can openly shill items with their hands in the air like they just don't care (Google: N.P. Gresham).

If it's done by an auction house located anywhere but Texas, it's not only unethical and highway robbery, but illegal as well.

[Runscott]

The xerox was common knowledge. I have no access to the bat-phone and I knew about it.

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[William Farrell]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The xerox was common knowledge. I have no access to the bat-phone and I knew about it.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

Because you're on the cutting edge! (Not literally)

[Runscott]

For those who did not see the photo - they were told about it by very trustworthy hobbyists. I think the blindness had to do with PSA ties. You see a lot of that sort of thing in this hobby.

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[Leon]

fyi due to a registration issue William and I are going to need to chat for a few minutes before he posts more....just tying to keep it real..

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

fyi due to a registration issue William and I are going to need to chat for a few minutes before he posts more....just tying to keep it real..

Any update?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Any update?

"William Farrell" decided he wanted to stay anonymous. My inkling was probably correct in that William isn't William......

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Leon

"William Farrell" decided he wanted to stay anonymous. My inkling was probably correct in that William isn't William......

WHAT?!?! Now what am I going to do with all these 8x10's I had made up for him to sign?



Maybe it's not a total loss. Does anybody have contact info for Kenny Powers? Or are you going to tell me next that he never played pro ball either?

[Runscott]

William was certainly more knowledgeable and well-spoken than the average autograph sub-forum participant. He will be missed...whoever he was.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Runscott

William was certainly more knowledgeable and well-spoken than the average autograph sub-forum participant. He will be missed...whoever he was.

Yea..he wasn't a country hick such as moi.

[turtleguy64]

anyone hear something about Allen's court date scheduled for this month,in fact coming up soon from news reports.it's been very quiet on this front,making me think that a plea deal for reduced time is in the works.Who else could be dragged down in this deal ?

[ruth-gehrig]

Anyone have a picture of the Wagner "pre-trimmed"?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by turtleguy64

anyone hear something about Allen's court date scheduled for this month,in fact coming up soon from news reports.it's been very quiet on this front,making me think that a plea deal for reduced time is in the works.Who else could be dragged down in this deal ?

Would they still offer a plea deal after tacking on new charges of obstruction?