Fake Mays rookie

[H_T_Davis]

Can I get a bit of help in getting this taken down?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141351804845...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Thanks,
Tom

[Leon]

Originally Posted by H_T_Davis

Can I get a bit of help in getting this taken down?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141351804845...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Thanks,
Tom

I don't know '51 Bowmans as well as some others but have had and sold a fair amount. Is there a chance that could just be a bad scan or am I missing a telltale sign?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know '51 Bowmans as well as some others but have had and sold a fair amount. Is there a chance that could just be a bad scan or am I missing a telltale sign?

It's a cropped image.

Seller's scan:


A legit scan:

[HRBAKER]

Obviously the mini parallel, wonder if he has the refractor too!

[vintagetoppsguy]

How about the blue sapphire version?

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's a cropped image.

The seller mentions in the listing's description that it is an altered card...because it would not fit in his Grandfathers card pages, it was trimmed down. Appears to have been done along the black border on the right edge....possibly authentic, absolutely altered.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Appears to have been done along the black border on the right edge....possibly authentic, absolutely altered.

Anything is possible, but I don't think so. The left border is cropped as well. Also, look at the name plate. It's in a different position than the real card. name plate altered too?

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Anything is possible, but I don't think so. The left border is cropped as well. Also, look at the name plate. It's in a different position than the real card. name plate altered too?

You are right about the name plate, you can see where it has been cut/pasted over to the left and is now flush with the right edge border. It would be interesting to see the back of the card.

[H_T_Davis]

If it were cut to preserve the right border, then the pieces slid over and put back together, the back should have the name and at least some of the stats showing. Basically, the back shows a card that has had the top removed - which would have included the right border on the front. Since the right border in intact on the front... Also, look at the difference in the quality of the black line surrounding the portrait on the front. The graded one is nice and neat, while this one has a ton of bleeding.

[savedfrommyspokes]

The two scans show what the description says...the card was trimmed down on the ends to fit into a sheet designed to hold 1950 Bowmans. If you look closely at the image of the front, you can tell by looking near each corner that the left and right edges have been pealed from the original cardboard and adhered to the appropriate side edges. The name plate of the card has been pealed and then adhered further to the left so that it is within the newly created right border. On the back, you can see the hand cut bottom edge(left front edge).

Very creative....can't believe someone would go through all this effort on a fake card, but who knows. If it is real, it is obviously altered(creatively). I would be interested to see if the seller has any other trimmed down 51 Bowmans.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

The two scans show what the description says...

It certainly does not. Re-read the comment above yours. He is exactly right and explained it perfectly.

If it were cut to preserve the right border, then the pieces slid over and put back together, the back should have the name and at least some of the stats showing.

Also, look at the left border as well (what would be the bottom of the card if looking at if from behind). It is also cropped, but there is no evidence of cropping (or cutting) on the back of the card.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It certainly does not. Re-read the comment above yours. He is exactly right and explained it perfectly.

If it were cut to preserve the right border, then the pieces slid over and put back together, the back should have the name and at least some of the stats showing.

Also, look at the left border as well (what would be the bottom of the card if looking at if from behind). It is also cropped, but there is no evidence of cropping (or cutting) on the back of the card.

Yes, the scan and image do match up to what the description indicates...the card back does not have the name or personal information on the back because that was the part of this card that was clearly trimmed off(that part of the back is not there in the scan). The name and personal information on the card back that have been trimmed away match up the right, front edge of the card that is missing.

The side edge parts of the front that were trimmed off were then PEALED APART with the thin top image portion pasted/glued back onto either of the side edges of the now trimmed card(to realign the black side borders/corners with the t/b black edge borders) all to make if appear the border has not been broken all the way around. The name plate was also pealed off and reattached further to the left(this is evident in the front scan, as the paste job is not perfectly lined up). You can see in the image of the front along the t/b white edges near the corners (above the vertical black border lines) where the pealed edges have been reattached.

The fact that the back appears just trimmed down on both the t/b edges on the back would also indicate that the front edges that were cut off, were PEALED and reattached to the front(not slid over). This is clearly evident on the back, bottom edge as it is not cut straight. The only damage to the back of the card is just where the t/b edges were trimmed off...no evidence of being cut and reattached on the back(this is due to the front having the pealed portions from the previously cut off edges glued onto the front).

I would agree that: "If it were cut to preserve the right border, then the pieces slid over and put back together, the back should have the name and at least some of the stats showing.", however, if the card had side edges that were trimmed off, pealed apart, and then pasted back on to the front to form new edges/borders(not "slid over and put back together"), there would be no name on the back as no part of the back was cut off and subsequently reattached.

You can see whatever you want to see, that is what I see.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

The fact that the back appears just trimmed down on both the t/b edges on the back...

That's just it though, the card doesn't appear to be trimmed on bottom. Let's pretend for a moment that it happened exactly as you say it did. Someone would have had to cut the bottom border (would be the left border looking at it from the front) and reattach it. However, the bottom border doesn't appear to be trimmed at all. Compare it to any other '51 Bowman Mays and you'll see. So how did he crop the left border without trimming the card?

Edited to add: The card very well could be some kind of Frankencard authentic creation. However, the evidence shows that it was not created from the same card. If it is some kind of Frankencard creation, it was made from two or more cards.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's just it though, the card doesn't appear to be trimmed on bottom. Let's pretend for a moment that it happened exactly as you say it did. Someone would have had to cut the bottom border (would be the left border looking at it from the front) and reattach it. However, the bottom border doesn't appear to be trimmed at all. Compare it to any other '51 Bowman Mays and you'll see. So how did he crop the left border without trimming the card?

Edited to add: The card very well could be some kind of Frankencard authentic creation. However, the evidence shows that it was not created from the same card. If it is some kind of Frankencard creation, it was made from two or more cards.

W/o the card in hand it is tough to really tell about the bottom, back edge. The bottom back edge does not look like an even cut across...the lower right corner does not appear even with the lower left back corner. This could be caused by a slight tilt of the printing on the back and causing it to appear to be an uneven cut, even though it is not.

Based on the scan/image provided, I see no evidence the card was cut and put back together in any way.

I sent the seller the following message:

From: savedfrommyspokes
To: peter_wilusz
Subject: Re: Other: savedfrommyspokes sent a message about 1951 BOWMAN WILLIE MAYS ROOKIE #305 #141351804845
Sent Date: Jul-21-14 05:57:28 PDT

Dear peter_wilusz,

Thank you for the back scan....I am trying to understand how the card is altered. Were the right and left front edges that were trimmed off (as indicated by the back scan you provided) later peeled apart and reattached to the front of the card somehow to make it look as though the black border around the image was intact? Also, was the black box with Mays' name somehow reattached further to the left? I believe the card is authentic, again, I am trying to understand the alterations made to it.
Thank you

- savedfrommyspokes



His response:


Dear savedfrommyspokes,

so 1/3 (well say) was cut. In this case the top half. name was cut out and placed t o the left, and white borders were made by removing the top layer of cardboard.

- peter_wilusz



Based on what he has indicated, the name plate was cut and pasted to the left as previously mentioned. Instead of also pealing and pasting the right and left edges as I had previously thought, he is indicating that the top layer of cardboard was removed and then the area below was somehow whitened in order to create the side borders. This explains why I was seeing a difference in the borders at the 4 intersections of the t/b and l/r borders. With the card in hand this would be easy to tell, but relying on the one front scan, it appeared similar to other c/p jobs I have seen in the past as well as would have matched what was done with the nameplate.

So that would leave just trying to explain the difference in the left front border area on this card as compared to other copies of this card. If the card in question had centering similar to the card below, the border on the card in question could be explained because the person altering the card removed the top layer of cardboard along the left edge and whitened it(as with the right edge) to give an appearance of equal borders on both side edges.

If the top layer of card board was removed along both the l/r edges to create the "new" border, this would mean that the left and right border lines would have likely been colored in, thus explaining their lack of consistency with the t/b border lines.

So either way, it does not appear the card was cut and then somehow put back together, just cut and then altered.

[H_T_Davis]

The buyer may be in for quite a surprise when his/her "altered" card arrives. Assuming that all of the parts are original, even if a significant portion is missing, would PSA/SGC/BVG even encapsulate it?