SGC Response concerning new labels

[Blackie]

updated.........was able to get ahold of SGC concerning the Sub...........all is Good!

[GregMitch34]

As I stated way up top--it's irrelevant that SGC claims that needed to make changes because of new computer program. No one is saying they should not make any changes, just that the ones they made--which were design choices, not mandated by computer--are bad. Their claim that "some people just don't like change" is, frankly, pretty offensive when they have offered no explanation of why these particular choices were made.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

As I stated way up top--it's irrelevant that SGC claims that needed to make changes because of new computer program. No one is saying they should not make any changes, just that the ones they made--which were design choices, not mandated by computer--are bad. Their claim that "some people just don't like change" is, frankly, pretty offensive when they have offered no explanation of why these particular choices were made.

Maybe they will learn. Even as big as Coca-Cola is as a Fortune 500 company, they too, learned quickly to get rid of "New Coke". Lest they wanted Pepsi to be the only game in town with the majority of the market share.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

As I stated way up top--it's irrelevant that SGC claims that needed to make changes because of new computer program. No one is saying they should not make any changes, just that the ones they made--which were design choices, not mandated by computer--are bad. Their claim that "some people just don't like change" is, frankly, pretty offensive when they have offered no explanation of why these particular choices were made.

They offered a lot of explanation but you failed to listen. (see first post)

[Peter_Spaeth]

In one month people will be completely used to it, I predict.

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In one month people will be completely used to it, I predict.

I don't think so. Over the years SGC has made changes to their flip, but not this drastic. There were tweaks, but the green border remained. Removing the green border is removing their identity not to mention upset a lot of OCD collectors...which lets face it, is a lot.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

As I stated way up top--it's irrelevant that SGC claims that needed to make changes because of new computer program. No one is saying they should not make any changes, just that the ones they made--which were design choices, not mandated by computer--are bad. Their claim that "some people just don't like change" is, frankly, pretty offensive when they have offered no explanation of why these particular choices were made.

+1. That's how I read it too--almost condescending. The fact that you need new computers, etc. is certainly understandable and probably well known to all. This is not the problem. There are at least 150 species of animals on this planet and probably some plants and minerals with more computer/techno knowledge than I and yet even I could find decent labeling software and a nice printer to address these so-called concerns. Several here have prepared mock-ups of superior labels with only hours or less of time to do so. I still have not seen an explanation as to how this label provides an extra line of text more than the last one. They removed their barcode, which is neither here nor there to me although it might be nice on the back for those with proper scanning abilities, yet their website still extolls as one of the virtues of their product the existence of this barcode. Then to basically shrug the whole thing off with the old "you can't please everybody" byline is exactly that---dismissive.

The folks on this board come from many walks of life, and several have had the opportunity to elicit sales pitches from advertisers and design folks on how to better improve the perception of their product or service. I wonder how many of us would accept this presentation and explanation as being even professional, much less something we would find attractive.

[srs1a]

Very well stated Todd.

[GregMitch34]

Leon, with respect, telling me "you failed to listen" is pretty impolite. Apparently that applies, I guess, to 4 out of 5 here. They did NOT offer any real explanation for the design choices, just the need to make some sort of changes. As others have shown, changes that reflected more of their current design, with all of the "lines" they want, could be made easily--contrary to what SGC clalms. They were free to choose any type face, keeping the green box and so forth. And the current label itself already has 4 lines of copy (and they've now deleted the bar code).

[auggiedoggy]

Joe,

I'd like to see your proposal implemented. Nice label!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Leon, with respect, telling me "you failed to listen" is pretty impolite. Apparently that applies, I guess, to 4 out of 5 here. They did NOT offer any real explanation for the design choices, just the need to make some sort of changes. As others have shown, changes that reflected more of their current design, with all of the "lines" they want, could be made easily--contrary to what SGC clalms. They were free to choose any type face, keeping the green box and so forth. And the current label itself already has 4 lines of copy (and they've now deleted the bar code).

Greg, I was only giving my opinion just as you do..and had I wanted to include others in that opinion I would have done that too. SGC gave this explanation in the first post-

"Internally we needed a label
that could contain more information (we now have 4 lines of text area, instead of 3 lines). Having 4 lines of available space is necessary for our business going forward. Having a colored border would have made this difficult and cluttered."


Whether there are work-arounds, or other solutions is besides the point of this post, and then you said this.... many posts down-

" Their claim that "some people just don't like change" is, frankly, pretty offensive when they have offered no explanation of why these particular choices were made."

So that is why I said what I did. However, I could have been more tactful so for that, I apologize. I doubt I will post in this thread anymore but will relegate myself to the others concerning the same subject.

[pgellis]

Let me preface what I am about to say by saying that I only collect SGC graded cards. I love the look of their holder/flip. I love their grading and their customer service, etc., etc. I am a customer.

So here's the question we all want an answer to: WHY CHANGE?

I know what Sean said, but why make such a drastic change? Perhaps, perhaps they thought that if they made a dramatic change to the flip, that then collectors would send in their existing collection to be re-holdered so their existing collection would have uniformity going forward?

Just a thought, but maybe it is more about creating a new revenue stream?

I know most of us will say that they would never send in their existing cards for re-holdering, but as we have already seen, continuity is a very important issue to collectors.

Just a thought....

[2dueces]

Wow. All this because a company changed it's flip design? OCD really does go hand in hand with card collecting.

[bobbyw8469]

The slabs the cards are in are just as important as say, 1993 Sport Kings (or whatever particular set you are working on). Together, the cards and the holders compliment each other. And let's say you are not finished. Do you really want to have half the set in different looking holders? As silly as you think this dilema is, this is a very real problem for card collectors.

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Wow. All this because a company changed it's flip design? OCD really does go hand in hand with card collecting.

Pish.

SGC gets a big fat "F" for failing on branding and marketing. If they had a thoughtful approach as to how this would roll out to collectors, why they were making the change, and being proactive in communicating before the new flips were ready, collectors would not be responding like they have.

It's interesting (to me) that Leon is essentially being the spokesperson for SGC on many of these changes. SGC has the love of the pre-war collecting crowd. It would not have taken much to roll out these changes in an engaging way. The "surprise" factor on the announcement, along with the general lack of communication is what has largely pissed off this group of collectors, in my opinion.

m

[JohnP0621]

Hate the New SGC Holder . Love the New Version of "Yesterday".

JP

[gregr2]

Maybe they should have made a contest for the flip design. They could have set requirements, i.e it must have 4 lines, include SGC, etc. and had folks submit designs. Then take the top 3 designs and let people vote on their website. Winning design gets 10 free grades.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by philliesphan

Pish.

SGC gets a big fat "F" for failing on branding and marketing. If they had a thoughtful approach as to how this would roll out to collectors, why they were making the change, and being proactive in communicating before the new flips were ready, collectors would not be responding like they have.

It's interesting (to me) that Leon is essentially being the spokesperson for SGC on many of these changes. SGC has the love of the pre-war collecting crowd. It would not have taken much to roll out these changes in an engaging way. The "surprise" factor on the announcement, along with the general lack of communication is what has largely pissed off this group of collectors, in my opinion.

m

For the most part I agree on your take on SGC. but not Leon.
Leon is doing his best to represent the N54 crowd & his engagement in discussions with SGC may be a win win for members here & SGC .
if the poll here resembles other non N54 SGC's customers SGC would be making an error in their business model with a change most loyal customers don't like.
My fingers are crossed Leon's efforts on our behalf pay off.
I wish my emails to SGC received a response

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by gregr2

Maybe they should have made a contest for the flip design. They could have set requirements, i.e it must have 4 lines, include SGC, etc. and had folks submit designs. Then take the top 3 designs and let people vote on their website. Winning design gets 10 free grades.

Jeez, the last time little lines were in such high demand was 1978 at Studio 54, and i don't mean the lines at the door.

[gregr2]

Originally Posted by mvsnyc

jeez, the last time little lines were in such high demand was 1978 at studio 54, and i don't mean the lines at the door.

lol

[MMarvelli]

Target has wrapped up internal studies and has determined that their target logo and color red is not necessary to convey the name of their store. It does nothing for their products or services, and it does not lower prices. It was an internal decision and they saw no need for a test market study. Joe G. had some good compromise ideas but Target just failed to listen. Target righteously determined you cant please everybody. The change will be implemented immediately.

Walmart loves their competitors’ choice and is keeping their blue branding. Starbuck’s is keeping their green.

Color matters.
Branding matters.
Customers matter.
Change is good.
Bad change is bad.

[Rich Klein]

I'll repeat what I have said on this thread on several occassions.

Looking at the new flip without the green border struck me as a bad flip for retail situations such as shows and stores. The proposed flip from SGC, on the first appearance looked (to me) as it belonged to a 2nd tier grading company (I used Pro and MGS, you can pick one of more than 100 for your choice)

The proposed green border would really help the card stand out in a competitive situation such as a show floor and help SGC keep it's idenity.

And I read the SGC statement as we had to make this change so we made this change and you alll can deal with it.

Rich

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Wow. All this because a company changed it's flip design? OCD really does go hand in hand with card collecting.

Yes - Pretty much stating the obvious there - OCD & Collecting should not require any type of excuse or explanation.

I would think , tho, that we would get more mileage if everyone would simply email Earl over at SGC. I have never known SGC to NOT listen to their customer base. I do like everything about the new flip - except for the sans Green Border. The very 1st photoshop design which incorporated the green border with the new flip looked absolutely fabulous to me and kept the SGC "look" intact. I would think this could easily be implemented on the SGC side.

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The slabs the cards are in are just as important as say, 1993 Sport Kings (or whatever particular set you are working on). Together, the cards and the holders compliment each other. And let's say you are not finished. Do you really want to have half the set in different looking holders? As silly as you think this dilema is, this is a very real problem for card collectors.

Bobby, As much as I respect your opinion this isn't a problem for card collectors. Seems to me it's a problem for flip collectors. I've been on this board 10 years and this thread is a close 2nd to the New York dinner thread in "does it really matter in the big picture?" points. Sorry, I don't see the big deal.

[sebie43]

When you pay money for something you want to like the way it looks, and that applies to slabs/flips too. In my opinion

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Bobby, As much as I respect your opinion this isn't a problem for card collectors. Seems to me it's a problem for flip collectors. I've been on this board 10 years and this thread is a close 2nd to the New York dinner thread in "does it really matter in the big picture?" points. Sorry, I don't see the big deal.

I guess equate it to what would Jefferson Burdick do when we went to the New York museum of art and started cataloging his cards. Did he just randomly put them in books, or did he make sure everything was cataloged nice and neat? If you don't understand a card collector's wish to keep everything nice and orderly, then you don't understand all the full nuances of card collecting. And yes, there are different levels of card collecting. You can just buy cards and throw them in a shoebox and call yourself card collecting. You can also only buy PSA 8's and ignore anything high and anything lower. That is collecing too. But to dismiss the fact that a collector would want his labels to match is kinda short sighted on your part.

[frankbmd]

Not too long ago there was a vocal contingent on the board who were adamant about cracking their cards out of the slabs so they could feel their cards. After this discussion methinks perhaps they just wanted to have their flips bronzed.

Leon, I think we really need a moat.

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Bobby, As much as I respect your opinion this isn't a problem for card collectors. Seems to me it's a problem for flip collectors. I've been on this board 10 years and this thread is a close 2nd to the New York dinner thread in "does it really matter in the big picture?" points. Sorry, I don't see the big deal.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you do acknowledge you're in the minority though right?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you do acknowledge you're in the minority though right?

If I'm in the minority, I am in good company with some of the greatest collectors in the game.

On a serious note, the only nuance I have is wanting all my cards in a set to match. I don't want to have them in all different slabs. I want them to all be graded by one company, and I want the "flip" to match. That's it. Like someone stated earlier, maybe SGC is hoping to get rush of collectors wanting to get stuff in the new label. I can promise, I am not the only collector who feels this way.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

If I'm in the minority, I am in good company with some of the greatest collectors in the game.

On a serious note, the only nuance I have is wanting all my cards in a set to match. I don't want to have them in all different slabs. I want them to all be graded by one company, and I want the "flip" to match. That's it. Like someone stated earlier, maybe SGC is hoping to get rush of collectors wanting to get stuff in the new label. I can promise, I am not the only collector who feels this way.

I agree with you, my comment about being in the minority was to 2dueces.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a LABEL.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a LABEL.

And it doesn't look like the others in my set!! Tell me this - if your keyboard for your custom made HP computer craps out, would you want to get any old keyboard or would you want to get an HP keyboard to match the one that crapped out? Sure, any old keyboard will work, but what if you want it to match the monitor and the computer? You might not care, but don't fault those of us that do!

[LuckyLarry]

Why are the paper labels on slabbed cards called flips?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by LuckyLarry

Why are the paper labels on slabbed cards called flips?

Because if you get a low grade then you may flip out?

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by LuckyLarry

Why are the paper labels on slabbed cards called flips?

So that if the buyer gets a grade that he knows he can sell for more than he paid for it, he flips it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Blame SGC"
They point their crooked little fingers at Skeffington
Spend all their time demandin' that somethin' be done
Victim of this, victim of that
The new flip's not green, it's gone over flat

Get over it
It's just a flip
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

[RGold]

Your avatar sucks.

[frankbmd]

Yes, this whole "flip" flap seems a bit overblown, but I fully realize that some consider it a call to arms. It just seems a tad ridiculous that a gaggle of grown men can get so worked up over a slip of paper. But then again spending big bucks on old card board probably would not be considered saner by the general public. I certainly consider myself among the insane and my "moat" post this morning implied that we are all in the asylum. The "moat" was to protect the public from us and not vice versa.

With that I will pick up my fife and ask Peter to pound the drum as we all sing together ............

The Battle Hymn of the Forum

Mine eyes have seen the horror
Of the coming of the flip
That’s trampling on the vintage
Of our trusty battleship
Green borders have been whitened
How bland doth look the slip
The Forum marches on

I have seen the raging brush fires
On this and other threads.
We are not without our losses
Several members lost their heads
Our courage is ne’er questioned
We are truly leather heads
The Forum marches on

I have read the fiery gospel
In the threads of 54
Where the flip has been condemned
Before getting out the door
The echoes from the rafters
Shout “SGC No More”
The Forum marches on

Glory, glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
Our Forum marches on

The enemy is quivering
In their sequestered fort
Joe G has made his own flip
Demanding they resort
To employing his design
Whilst the new flip must abort
The Forum marches on

Glory, glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
Our Forum marches on

The pundits are uncertain
‘Bout the outcome of this war
Battle lines are established
Our flip we must implore
But our bravery’s now affirmed
For now and evermore
The Forum marches on

Glory, glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
Glory, glory, hallelujah
Our Forum marches on

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RGold

Your avatar sucks.

At least it has no rouge.

[RGold]

"Weird Frank" Yankovic, M.D.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by RGold

"Weird Frank" Yankovic, M.D.

i was thinking the same thing!!!!!

[thehoodedcoder]

They basically just copied the PSA label layout and design. They changed red to green and have a PSA grade index on it, in addition to their original grading tier.

Not sure if this was mentioned but...that's just a cop out. If you are redoing stuff wouldn't you invest the money in the bar code technology also and bring your company into the 19th century?

Kevin

[bobfreedman]

As the owner of the company that was in charge of the new web site design, and an overhaul of the set registry, and the changes to the flip and about 20 other things, the time that took the longest and was the most difficult thing to do, were the changes to the flip. Now many of you who think it should have been easy and we should have be able to add a green border easily, really have no idea how difficult this truly was. They also should not claim to think they could have done it themselves just because they were able to add it in photoshop with no business requirements nor have any of the specifications to work from. Some of our tolerances were 1/32" of an inch, we also went through two different printers, we went through three different labels test runs (all of which were paid for), we designed four or five different labels and it took us about 8 months to complete. None of this mind you, is me complaining about this, it is me merely telling you that this was not an easy thing to do to say the least.

I realize I am opening myself to some ridicule here because no matter what I say, some of you will find fault. What SGC did was modernize their entire computer systems at a great cost to bring better customer service to everyone here. Now granted, we could have gotten more feedback from some of you but in all honesty, it would not have mattered because SGC wanted to get a 4th line on the flip in order to differentiate itself from its competitors and they should be applauded for it, because some of you think that you could have done it better or you were not consulted or whatever gripe you have with the new flip. SGC spent a lot of money to modernize the computer system and that is what should be the focus here, not a lack of a green border.

I will add that we are looking to see if we can add the border to the flip but that will take a while to do because as I had indicated, it is a very complex change.

Bob Freedman
bob@simpleauctionsite.com

[t206hof]

Bob, Get Ready cause here it comes.

[MMarvelli]

No mother likes to hear her baby is ugly. I am surprised it took her this long to defend herself and her offspring.

[calvindog]

Lol

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Some of our tolerances were 1/32" of an inch, we also went through two different printers, we went through three different labels test runs (all of which were paid for), we designed four or five different labels and it took us about 8 months to complete. None of this mind you, is me complaining about this, it is me merely telling you that this was not an easy thing to do to say the least.

I'm not sure what two(!) printers you tried, but .8mm simplex registration tolerances should be a non-issue for a professional office printer. And who in their right mind besides a construction worker measures in 32nds of an inch???

[GregMitch34]

Still the "modernizing the computer" excuse! You produced a lame, ugly flip that most of the company's best customers hate. Good work. And as the "photoshopped" alternatives show, you could have easily gotten the same number of lines and info on it. Has nothing to do with them "modernizing their computer system."

All that said Bob, the flip is still ugly. Please refer to the link provided for the overwhelming feedback from SGC customers. Spoiler alert, it's not pretty from your company's or SGC's perspective.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=188363

Dan Hicks

[Orioles1954]

Speaking as a collector, at the end of the day the pontification and the "you all really don't what you're talking about" and "you have no idea how hard it is" statements do not change the fact that the flip is horrendous. Spin it any way you want.