Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[DICKTOWLE]

I would like to thank 15 new customers from Chat 54 that have sent cards to our business to work on. And now there is repeat business from all. Thank you all for the support. Chat 54 is the best.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

What is chat 54?

[bobbyw8469]

laughs....I like it!

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

What is chat 54?

Chat 54 is the hippest club in town!

54.jpg

[CW]

For some reason whenever I see the name "Dick Towle" I can't help but think of Towelie from South Park...

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by CW

For some reason whenever I see the name "Dick Towle" I can't help but think of Towelie from South Park...

I think of something a fluffed uses.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CW

For some reason whenever I see the name "Dick Towle" I can't help but think of Towelie from South Park...

Dick are you still taking wrinkles out of cards? Removing signatures from baseballs to give the impression they were single signed?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115131

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115203 post 67

[oldjudge]

Shouldn't this post be somewhere else? Everyone can make their own evaluation of this type of business, but I am not a big fan of using chemicals to treat cards.

Jay Miller

[autograf]

To my knowledge it's only cards.....I'm sure Dick can expand on it. I'm not one of the 'NEW' customers but I did get him to get stains off the back of an N36 Allen & Ginter Indian card and the results were a little scary.....scary good, that is. I didn't do the black light trick nor do I intend to sell but the stains are no longer there. I'm in no way affiliated with the subject, just thought I'd weigh in...........I wish I'd scanned the card before I sent it.

And I agree about Jay about the placement....maybe it'll get moved to the B/S/T.............

[oldjudge]

Do we have a spam folder?

[Leon]

Yes, I consider it advertising spam and it will be dealt with in the future. Since the thread already has legs we'll just leave it.

I am on the fence about the services offered. I have a good hobby friend who is an experienced grader at a large company. He said he sent Dick a few of his personal cards and the results were phenomenal. He said there was no way he could tell anything was done to the cards except what was supposed to be removed was gone with no trace whatsoever left behind.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes, I consider it advertising spam and it will be dealt with in the future. Since the thread already has legs we'll just leave it.

I am on the fence about the services offered. I have a good hobby friend who is an experienced grader at a large company. He said he sent Dick a few of his personal cards and the results were phenomenal. He said there was no way he could tell anything was done to the cards except what was supposed to be removed was gone with no trace whatsoever left behind.

I sent Dick a few personal cards. On a couple the work was phenomenal, on others it looked the same as when I sent them in.

[DICKTOWLE]

I would like to make it clear that I don't remove autographs on baseballs, however I now remove wrinkles on cards and faces, if I can help someone, and you know who you are, please contact us

[4815162342]

Maybe this section should be renamed Net54baseball Vintage (Pre-WWII) Baseball Cards, New Member Introductions, & Card Alterer Advertisements.

[1880nonsports]

it's fluffer

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

I would like to make it clear that I don't remove autographs on baseballs, however I now remove wrinkles on cards and faces, if I can help someone, and you know who you are, please contact us

Shameless.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Shouldn't this post be somewhere else? Everyone can make their own evaluation of this type of business, but I am not a big fan of using chemicals to treat cards.

Jay Miller

+1

[chipperhank44]

Not a fan of what this guy does at all. I doubt most of his clients are forthcoming when it comes to the history of their cards' restoration when sending it to a TPG or selling.

And the name reminds me of something you might avoid on a dorm room floor....

[KCRfan1]

I know everyone has strong feelings about what Dick does, personally I do not have an issue with his work. What he does is no different than someone who restores paintings or other works of art.

[bbcard1]

It's an interesting conundrum. I would probably do it for a card that was scarce and I intended to keep, but never have had the right combination of factors come up to tempt me.

[slidekellyslide]

Chat 54 <---- This is what we should rename the water cooler section.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Chat 54 <---- This is what we should rename the water cooler section.

Then what would our chat room be? For those that don't know, we have a nice chat room for any and all members to take advantage of. It's always open and seldom taken advantage of.....

[Eric72]

"Gone with the stain. Dick Towle"
Some jokes write themselves.

As some of you know, I personally think that soaking a card constitutes alteration. Yes, I understand that mine is a minority opinion, and don't wish to revisit my recent vodka fueled rant on the subject.

What I do wish is...to state here that someone using chemicals (other than the universal solvent) to remove stains from a card, if they go to sell it without disclosing the alteration, is just plain wrong. And, in my opinion, anyone who has someone else perform the alteration before selling the card without full disclosure is just as unethical.

Additionally, and here is the reason for me leaving this post, I place Mr. Towle in the same category as those who sell pack wrappers with the original pieces of gum or sell the original flips from cracked out graded cards.

Enabling fraud is just shy of actually committing it. Just my two cents...and I actually don't apologize if that statement offends anyone...especially Mr. Dick Towle.

Best regards, and happy to stand by my opinion by having my full name in this post.

[bn2cardz]

I am in the minority and have never had any fixes done, but I don't have an issue with what Mr Towle does. He doesn't add paper or color to cover flaws or take away parts of the card to give an appearance of four sharp corners. The card is 100% original. What he does give the card back some of its luster. Especially the way he removes a card from a scrapbook. I would much rather have the cards he removes from a scrapbook than one where the entire back is ripped off. I consider what he does more of a preservation than an alteration.

[vintagetoppsguy]

To debate whether his service is right or wrong is one thing, but making fun is his name is kind of juvenile.

FWIW, I have never used his service, but I have bought cards from him - about a dozen or so 1956 Topps. They were advertised as NM. I sent them all to SGC for grading and 2 came back a 6, 2 came back an 8 and all the others were either 7 or 7.5. So, his assessment of the cards were spot on. I don't know if any of the cards that I purchased were "cleaned" or not, and I really don't care but, if they were, they got by SGC's graders.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't know if any of the cards that I purchased were "cleaned" or not, and I really don't care but, if they were, they got by SGC's graders.

Sure...why care? So long as the card gets slabbed, why should a serious collector bother getting involved?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Sure...why care? So long as the card gets slabbed, why should a serious collector bother getting involved?

+1

Not sure what is more juvenile having a harmless good natured laugh at someone’s name. Or not caring if you have been taken to the cleaners no pun intended on doctored cards that are all good because they made it into holders to pass onto the next guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes, I consider it advertising spam and it will be dealt with in the future. Since the thread already has legs we'll just leave it.

I am on the fence about the services offered. I have a good hobby friend who is an experienced grader at a large company. He said he sent Dick a few of his personal cards and the results were phenomenal. He said there was no way he could tell anything was done to the cards except what was supposed to be removed was gone with no trace whatsoever left behind.

So the better the card doctor, the more acceptable the doctoring?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Not sure what is more juvenile having a harmless good natured laugh at someone’s name. Or not caring if you have been taken to the cleaners no pun intended on doctored cards that are all good because they made it into holders to pass onto the next guy.

Since you aren't sure let me help you out. It is making fun of someone's name. Not caring about how the previous owner handled the cards prior to you owning is either a well thought out decision on your collecting preference or apathy. Making fun some someone's name is nothing more than a lack of maturity.

[Matt E.]

Dick or anyone,

Just wondering how much does it cost to have a stain or stains removed?

Do tobacco stains cost more than water stains? What determines the cost?

Thanks,

Matt

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Sure...why care? So long as the card gets slabbed, why should a serious collector bother getting involved?

If I buy a card that was "cleaned" and I can't detect any evidence, you can't detect any evidence, the graders can't detect any evidence and nobody else can detect any evidence, then what does it really matter? What can be done?

Maybe it's not that I don't care, but I would rather focus my efforts on the types of alterations that do leave evidence and that we can do something about.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the better the card doctor, the more acceptable the doctoring?

Why try to put words in my mouth?
I gave no opinion. I only said it wasn't detectable, and in that respect, it's good work. I said I was on the fence about his work as a whole, if you care to actually read what I wrote, instead of being argumentative?

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Eric72

"Gone with the stain. Dick Towle"
Some jokes write themselves.

As some of you know, I personally think that soaking a card constitutes alteration. Yes, I understand that mine is a minority opinion, and don't wish to revisit my recent vodka fueled rant on the subject.

What I do wish is...to state here that someone using chemicals (other than the universal solvent) to remove stains from a card, if they go to sell it without disclosing the alteration, is just plain wrong. And, in my opinion, anyone who has someone else perform the alteration before selling the card without full disclosure is just as unethical.

Additionally, and here is the reason for me leaving this post, I place Mr. Towle in the same category as those who sell pack wrappers with the original pieces of gum or sell the original flips from cracked out graded cards.

Enabling fraud is just shy of actually committing it. Just my two cents...and I actually don't apologize if that statement offends anyone...especially Mr. Dick Towle.

Best regards, and happy to stand by my opinion by having my full name in this post.

Do you also believe it is wrong to have works of art cleaned and restored?

I'm not picking an arguement with you, as I agree that full disclosure must be practiced.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Why try to put words in my mouth?
I gave no opinion. I only said it wasn't detectable, and in that respect, it's good work. I said I was on the fence about his work as a whole, if you care to actually read what I wrote, instead of being argumentative?

Fair enough, but come on bro get off the fence, take a stand!!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If I buy a card that was "cleaned" and I can't detect any evidence, you can't detect any evidence, the graders can't detect any evidence and nobody else can detect any evidence, then what does it really matter? What can be done?

Maybe it's not that I don't care, but I would rather focus my efforts on the types of alterations that do leave evidence and that we can do something about.

+1

[ullmandds]

I do not believe it is wrong to restore/conserve/repair works of art so they may be enjoyed by many.

I had a patient once who did paper restoration...and I had him remove pieces of scotch tape from an autographed maris rookie I got from my neighbor growing up as a kid. I'm happy...the card looks much better than before...I will likely keep the card most of my life anyway.

I had Dick remove some nasty tape from an m101-3 cobb...and he did a fine job and I am much happier with the card now! It's still a beater grade wise...and you can obviously still see tape residue...but it's much more presentable.

I don't have a problem with removals if they do not affect the card otherwise.

I have a problem with adding color, adding corners, trimming, changing captions, bleaching...etc.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair enough, but come on bro get off the fence, take a stand!!

I am staying on the fence for now, thanks. I really have mixed feelings.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am staying on the fence for now, thanks. I really have mixed feelings.....

Indeed.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Do you also believe it is wrong to have works of art cleaned and restored?

I'm not picking an arguement with you, as I agree that full disclosure must be practiced.

Noble goal, but has anyone received full disclosure on any 100 year old card that they have purchased? Provenance when available is interesting and when available should be pursued, but I have never seen or heard of a card being promoted with a statement that indicates that the card was cracked out of a PSA slab in 2003 and resubmitted to SGC. Or that a card was sent to PSA seven times until it got the desired the grade. Or how that card may have been stored, handled or displayed for its first 90 years of existence.

Personally I have absolutely no knowledge of what happened to any of my cards in 1964, and in 2064 I doubt that any collectors (with the possible exception of wazoo) will know what a Dick Towle is, what it did or what it means.

Those who practice restoration (by any method) with an intent to deceive will not disclose. As I said, full disclosure is a noble goal, but perhaps a fantasy in the real world and all the pontification in the world will not change that.

Disclaimer: I agree with everyone who has posted in this thread, and add this editorial comment without prejudice, so don't try to pick a fight with me.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Since you aren't sure let me help you out. It is making fun of someone's name. Not caring about how the previous owner handled the cards prior to you owning is either a well thought out decision on your collecting preference or apathy. Making fun some someone's name is nothing more than a lack of maturity.

Thanks for your guidance Andy, or should I say Andy Bo Bandy.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

What can be done?

The fact that cleaned cards get slabbed is possible because graders are unaware of what to look for.

I'm pretty confident nobody lists on the submission form that these cards were cleaned with chemicals before submitting them.

So back to your question David. What can be done?

Maybe a collector could purchase a card that has been cleaned to educate himself/herself.

Just a suggestion.


Jantz

[GoldenAge50s]

If I buy a card that was "cleaned" and I can't detect any evidence, you can't detect any evidence, the graders can't detect any evidence and nobody else can detect any evidence, then what does it really matter?

My feelings also. If you can't see it, smell it or can't know it was done, then was ANYTHING really done?

It's like grading: a card gets a VG 4 for a crease no one can see or find--then to me it isn't there!

[Brian Van Horn]

The basis of this thread repulses me.

[oldjudge]

If you can't detect a trim is that OK? if you can't detect rebuilt corners is that OK? This is a slippery slope you have gotten on.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Thanks for your guidance Andy, or should I say Andy Bo Bandy.

Johnny...be nice

In my opinion, if there is no trace of "alteration", there is no alteration. Just because the card was cleaned, doesn't mean it was altered. If a card is dirty, was it originally dirty? Of course it wasn't...so if it is then cleaned without any chemicals or something that seems to alter the card in some sort, why is this practice considered unethical?

Also, I believe Frank brings up some great points...way to keep it real, Frank!

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If you can't detect a trim is that OK? if you can't detect rebuilt corners is that OK? This is a slippery slope you have gotten on.

cleaning is not trimming...



Of course there are some TPG's that miss trimming on some cards, but I would hope that most of it does get caught. And rebuilding is not even close to simply cleaning a stain or dirt from a card.



So all ball players that slide into home and get dirt on their knees...should they not be able to wipe it off??? That would result in alteration!!!

[wonkaticket]

So Mike if I cleaned say a 1914 CJ Jackson and removed all the stains made it look brighter and cleaner or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner...and you couldn't tell.

You wouldn't mind to find out later you paid a premium due to my "undectable" face lift?

[teetwoohsix]

I just have a question, and will refrain on saying what I think of this.

Mr. Towle admits he uses "chemicals" to do his work. So, my question would be this: Since chemicals are admittedly being used, are there any guarantees that 20 years down the road the card/s that this process was done to will not begin to degrade from the chemical exposure? That includes paper degradation, ink fading, etc? Obviously in the short term, it appears that all traces of whatever mysterious chemicals are being used are not detectable. But, I'm wondering about the long term effects-20, 25, 30 years from now-have any long term studies been done?

Thanks-

Sincerely, Clayton

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

So Mike if I cleaned say a 1914 CJ Jackson and removed all the stains made it look brighter and cleaner or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner...and you couldn't tell.

You wouldn't mind to find out later you paid a premium due to my "undectable" face lift?

Johnka Wonka McDonka

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

[barrysloate]

I always find it fascinating how much collectors will pay for high grade baseball cards when so much can be done to enhance them, much of it undetectable. You would think that there would have to be a very high level of confidence to pay many thousands of dollars for a pristine card, but the only thing that ever seems to matter is the number on the slab. Nothing deters a buyer as long as the label reads 8, 9, or higher. It's an amazing phenomenon.