Probstein123 Still amazed he is in business

[probstein123]

Gentlemen....
I find it puzzling that people with a strong sense of morality have no problem trashing people publicly with nothing more than accusations...

re shilling....
currently, we sell over 100,000 auctions a year, I'm the only person on my staff
that knows jesse haines is a HOF er...meaning, I'm crazed busy dealing with the operation of making sure my consignors items are presented correctly...plus I have 5 kids !! repeat: 100,000+ auctions annually...

on shilling, it takes place all over the industry...its a problem everywhere and except people dealing directly on net54 or buying cards at shows....
within ebay, sellers do not have access to bidders high bids...this differs with many auction houses where they have access to see who is bidding....
shill bidding is much worse in the auction house world in my opinion...

I always hear people want proof, well here is an example...
we just sold this item for $12,000 on ebay
" 1942 St Louis Cardinals Team Signed Baseball w/ Musial Slaughter + JSA LOA AUTO " ...the winning bidder triple bid against himself 3 times...meaning he was willing to pay more...did I get on my bat phone and find a bidder to jack up the price ...no ? Mike Q , posted on the thread, mike, have I have prompted you to bid on my auctions ?
we block bidders that we think are problematic...

we get strong prices primarily because we have created a culture where buyers know they can find great items either with realistic BIN's or auction of high end items that start at 99 cent...

as ebays largest seller , we will always be a target...anyone can say anything in a thread ...if you do see problematic activity, please call me at 973 747 6304 and I will address it ..thanks, rick

[ngrow9]

Just to be clear, my post was simply a response on the eBay v. AH issue generally, and not at all related to Probstein's auctions specifically. I've won one of Rick's auctions before, thought that I paid a very fair price for the item (below my max bid, in fact), and have nothing but good things to say about the experience.

[ullmandds]

I suppose bottom line is don't bid more than you want to pay for an item...seeing as shilling has become the norm?!

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I suppose bottom line is don't bid more than you want to pay for an item...seeing as shilling has become the norm?!

+1

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I suppose bottom line is don't bid more than you want to pay for an item...seeing as shilling has become the norm?!

I've bought between 5-10 items from this seller and have been very happy with each transaction (great clear scans, nice cards, really fast shipping).. none of which went above what I considered market value. Without getting into whole topic of shilling, spotting it, obligation to police, etc, I completely agree with the above.

PS- haven't taken time to wade through all the posts yet, but just my opinion

[probstein123]

You own 20 of them that are all numbered 171/400?

==> we used the same listing for each one....
it takes 90 minutes to repack them once opened....
we own 20 of the 400 but I don't know which number we have of each....
buyers don't care either....they just want the piece...I'm not spending 90 minutes each on 20 pieces just so we can state 171/400 , 185/400 , etc...

these things are 82 pounds and are one huge paint in the but to ship....

you'll notice our listing on ebay has /400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/XL-Super-Bow...item53f44c6037

[Sean1125]

Ran through my invoices really quick---

Here are both sides of my pricing anomalies from items listed with Rick:

67 Set partially graded, expected $2200 sold $3k
56 near set, expecting $900 sold $1300
55 Bowman Starter expecting $500 sold $860
64 Topps Standup lot expecting $200 sold $460
Lebron Quad Auto expecting $600 sold $355
Joe Montana PSA/DNA RC expecting $250 sold $104
Al Leiter Autograph expecting $15 sold $56
Silver Ring, was expecting $20 got $91
Large amount of mid condition raw stars that sold on average 40% higher than expecting (about 80 cards)
I got absolutely killed on a large modern lot, many BGS 9.5's and 10 pristines I was expecting $15-$30 each sold for $2-$5 (had 40 cards sell for under $15)
1880's Sporting Life's, expecting $50-$75/card sold for $140-$180 each
1880's Peck & Snyder expecting $75-$100/card sold for $50-$60
55 Bowman starter set, expecting $400 sold $102 (Edit - this is a different listing than the other starter)
150~ 1960 PSA cards was expecting $800 out of the lot sold for over $1200
2x Mike Trout logo patch autos, expecting $600-$800 per, sold for $300-$350 each
1940 Superman Gum /w card #1 expecting $2000, sold $395
National Chicle Skybirds Expecting $80, sold $200

[smtjoy]

My personal experience-

Purchased over 2000 items on ebay- 0 retractions

Sold over 3000 items on ebay- 0 retractions

[HRBAKER]

Rick,
In your opinion how many bid retractions does someone need
to become a problematic bidder? I would disagree purely from
a non-scientific and opinion based standpoint that there is
more shilling @ AHs than on eBay. The stakes and downside
seem to be much greater there than eBay. Could be wrong.

Jeff

[rainier2004]

I dont follow anything else except Cracker Jacks and Rick has soldquite a few 1914s recently well below market value fwiw.

[probstein123]

I'm not convinced that this is what shillers do....
I get real-time emails when bidders retract and I click and look and I've never seen a consignor retracting....I would think that the placement of ceiling bids is more problematic....and by the way , I have LOADS of buyers that greatly dislike the fact that the MAJORITY of ebay items for auction have super high reserves,
they have limited time and the MOSTLY buy from me or PWCC cause they know they can win items without reserves....gee, where was all that shilling on the 1914 CJS ? meanwhile there is another thread somewhere with accusations that shilling happened on 1914 CJS meanwhile several of them went of low...can't be both ways

[36GoudeyMan]

I join the earlier poster who said that you should bid what you are willing to pay. If its shilled beyond your top bid, then it will come back around again and perhaps your same bid on a re-listing might get it that time. Shilling is a very bad thing for sellers and buyers alike, as shown by the hesitancy to buy from Probstein despite 80,000+ feedbacks and 100% rating (IIRC). I've bought from him, and gotten the items I wanted at my price, or lost the auction. Never an issue. I don't consign to eBay sellers, as I can sell on my own. If I did, I wouldn't shill because of the risk that I'd win my item back, and that's not the purpose of selling. If I want to ensure a minimum price acceptable to me, I'll ask for a reserve, and sell it at that, or not at all..

[dodgerfanjohn]

Originally Posted by 36GoudeyMan

I join the earlier poster who said that you should bid what you are willing to pay. If its shilled beyond your top bid, then it will come back around again and perhaps your same bid on a re-listing might get it that time. Shilling is a very bad thing for sellers and buyers alike, as shown by the hesitancy to buy from Probstein despite 80,000+ feedbacks and 100% rating (IIRC).

Well this leads into the problem that Paul(Bubble Bath Girl) points out, which is......these prices that have been shilled up get recognized as legit sales in price guides or even for people doing a ebay search on past sales....and they are not in fact. But prices potentially and falsely get nudged up higher overall due to "ghost" sales where a shiller is the primary bidder.

[ullmandds]

yes John...this is a huge problem...it's become like a runaway train...how do you stop it?!

[yanks12025]

Did that person actually pay the $12,000 for the ball. No way someone would be that stupid and pay that much.

[probstein123]

Did that person actually pay the $12,000 for the ball. No way someone would be that stupid and pay that much.
==> they paid....musial items are super hot and this ball is very rare...

[tcdyess]

ok, but the 22 bids are from 3 bidders - 1 bid once, 1 bid twice, and the other has bid 19 times so far... hmmmm

[lsutigers1973]

Arguing with Rick is no different than arguing with bubblebathdude. He is always right until proven wrong and then he runs away.

Notice how he puts blinders on and acts like no one is shilling. His first response in this thread is full of outright lies. He has been proven a liar numerous times on CU and runs away until someone praises him in another thread.

He has been caught saying it is only him. Then later says it was someone on his "staff".

When questioned about so many of his cards in the PSA 8 to 9 range that end up selling and being relisted less than a month later but a grade or two higher, he said no one sees the cards but him prior to listing. Then we find out that the original winner and new consignor just happen to live in the same town as Rick.

Then he got caught saying he never submitted cards to PSA, but a week later throws out a story about submitting cards to PSA himself.

How about the monster Super Bowl auto book that has sold 3 times, won by the same bidder and relisted for a 4th time?

The 1975 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 8 with a monster stain that has been sold at least 3 times and won by the same bidder and relisted almost immediately?

There are plenty more but the PSA threads always seem to disappear any time Sir Rick is questioned.

I digress. I need a beer.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by probstein123

I'm not convinced that this is what shillers do....
I get real-time emails when bidders retract and I click and look and I've never seen a consignor retracting....I would think that the placement of ceiling bids is more problematic....and by the way , I have LOADS of buyers that greatly dislike the fact that the MAJORITY of ebay items for auction have super high reserves,
they have limited time and the MOSTLY buy from me or PWCC cause they know they can win items without reserves....gee, where was all that shilling on the 1914 CJS ? meanwhile there is another thread somewhere with accusations that shilling happened on 1914 CJS meanwhile several of them went of low...can't be both ways

Rick just because the item is shilled doesn't mean it will go for a lot of $. If the shiller bids over max and retracts to remain below the max and bumps it up to there over the period of a week or so combined with a lack of interest or cold spell in the market could give you a low price. They won't over bid and win their items.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by probstein123

I'm not convinced that this is what shillers do....
I get real-time emails when bidders retract and I click and look and I've never seen a consignor retracting....I would think that the placement of ceiling bids is more problematic....and by the way , I have LOADS of buyers that greatly dislike the fact that the MAJORITY of ebay items for auction have super high reserves,
they have limited time and the MOSTLY buy from me or PWCC cause they know they can win items without reserves....gee, where was all that shilling on the 1914 CJS ? meanwhile there is another thread somewhere with accusations that shilling happened on 1914 CJS meanwhile several of them went of low...can't be both ways

most people who would engage in shilling would probably not be using an account that is recognizeable. Alot of people have their friends and relatives bid on their stuff....it makes it harder to trace. I know of flea marketers that have more than 10 accounts on Ebay that are always in use

[Republicaninmass]

I've never seen a consignor retracting

How about one bidding?

[probstein123]

Originally Posted by T206DK

most people who would engage in shilling would probably not be using an account that is recognizeable. Alot of people have their friends and relatives bid on their stuff....it makes it harder to trace. I know of flea marketers that have more than 10 accounts on Ebay that are always in use

some days we get 0 bid retractions and very rarely do I ever get more than a few in a day...I don't think this is prevalent on our auctions...

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by probstein123

some days we get 0 bid retractions and very rarely do I ever get more than a few in a day...I don't think this is prevalent on our auctions...

To me, this is an interesting quote. Don't you think getting a few bid retractions a day is an issue? That's not prevalant? I don't care how many items a seller is selling. Bid retractions should be rare, not the norm.

Here are the only instances where ebay allows legitimate bid retractions.

You accidentally entered the wrong bid amount due to a typographical error. For example, you bid $99.50 instead of $9.95. If this happens, you need to reenter the correct bid amount right away. Changing your mind does not qualify as accidentally entering a wrong bid amount.

The item's description changed significantly after you entered your last bid. For example, the seller updated details about the item's features or condition.

You can't reach the seller by telephone or email.

There should never be large number of bid retractions for any seller's items. If I had one person retract a bid, I would probably be asking them why. Let alone "a few a day".

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by T206DK

most people who would engage in shilling would probably not be using an account that is recognizeable. Alot of people have their friends and relatives bid on their stuff....it makes it harder to trace. I know of flea marketers that have more than 10 accounts on Ebay that are always in use

Why not? No one would really think to look at those people. Then when they do all of a sudden it becomes apparent there might be issues. The fact they they continue and the seller denies any knowledge is BS.

[hangman62]

I think the guy sells loads of hard to find stuff...and prices arent bad....Ive never had any issues bidding or buying thru ebay with him

RalG

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by probstein123

.... meanwhile there is another thread somewhere with accusations that shilling happened on 1914 CJS meanwhile several of them went of low...can't be both ways

For what it's worth, the thread I started back in late December titled "Bidding on your own auction" (regarding a 1914 CJ) was raising the question of a card that was purchased approximately 10 days earlier, consigned, relisted in one of Rick's auctions and then the original buyer was bidding it up. I questioned the card buyer/consignors motive, not Rick. I would have questioned this in anyone's auction.

The original winner/re-bidder did not win the card, I don't recall if it sold for more than the current market average .. and that, obviously, was not my point.

Rick and I have since spoken and cleared up any questions surrounding.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by probstein123

I always hear people want proof, well here is an example...
we just sold this item for $12,000 on ebay
" 1942 St Louis Cardinals Team Signed Baseball w/ Musial Slaughter + JSA LOA AUTO " ...the winning bidder triple bid against himself 3 times...meaning he was willing to pay more...did I get on my bat phone and find a bidder to jack up the price ...no ? Mike Q , posted on the thread, mike, have I have prompted you to bid on my auctions ?
we block bidders that we think are problematic...

That's a fascinating example... only 2 bidders above the 300$ mark, the underbidder only seems to bid on your stuff...

I guess the moral here is: we can be as paranoid as we want but we'll never get any definitive answers from eBay or AHs.

I think Peter hit the nail on the head with his last post.