SGC is now authenticating autographs

[HOFAUTOS]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

If "most collectors" have never heard of Jim Stinson or Richard Simon its likely they have not been in this game too long. Pop quiz
1) Who were the original 4 consultants for PSA ?
2) Who was the consultant with the LEAST experience ?
3) Which consultant was a guest at Jim Stinson's wedding ? hint its the answer to #2
4) Is it important to you that the item have a COA or is REAL ?
and lastly if you think a COA is going to sell the item for you, REAL collectors ...REAL authenticators like the members who read this board are FAR smarter and informed than you think
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I'm not an old school collector so most of those questions i couldn't answer. I've only been collecting autographs for 15 years. I am a member of 5 different hobby boards and when myself or someone else lists an autograph for sale, the first thing always asked is if it has a PSA/DNA or JSA cert, with the exception being on SCN where people trust my opinion and my money back guarantee. It helps that SCN is an actual autograph website with experienced collectors, where as the other sites are more on the card side. Like I said before, I only submit the items I want to sell to get authenticated, unless I'm listing them on SCN, but even then I still can't fully price on it compared to if it came with a cert.

I buy autographs all the time without certs. Heck I don't even own an autograph with a certificate, except for a few pack pulled autographs. I buy all my autographs on ebay and know they are the real deal.

[JasonD08]

I have read this thread and would like to chime in with my 2 cents for all its worth. I purchased a large lot of 60,000 signed cards from all sports from an original collection through the help of the most reputable dealer i know and one of the hobbies must trusted honest people. With that being said I have been scanning and listing for 2 years and still have not made a big dent in this unbelievable collection. Many expert collectors such as Olbermann, and a few others who have multiple complete sets have been my best customers. There is no doubt these are all 100% legit autos with most being acquired in person at sporting games, spring trainings, and other venues. Considering I have thousands of singles which include hall of famers, deceased, stars, and tough autos that value atleast $25 each or more, I have considered slabbing to maximize my profit. Here is my take:

PSA- I have been submitting regular unsigned vintage cards for awhile only to be disappointed in the lack of skilled grading. I have recently had PSA 5s go to trimmed, PSA 6(mc) go back to 6, a 4 to a 7 amongst other nonsense. With that being said I realize that PSA/DNA should maximize my value on my signed material. I called twice with follow ups to show interest in submitting 1000 cards lots for PSA DNA blue flip only to get ignored and calls not returned.

JSA- I called Spence recently to try to talk to him about possibly submitting a deal in bulk and have BGS slab them (like the holders) and got a different authenticator. I left my number and he never called me back nor did anyone else from the company. I was even referred to him by the reputable dealer who knows him personally.

My take is that PSA and JSA must be swamped with so much business that they do not need mine. I will give JSA benefit of the doubt for I bet Jimmy never even got my message, but still needs to know whats going on. PSA on the other hand has 0 customer service.

I think SGC can become a real player here if they step up and play their cards right. Auto original cards are becoming evermore red hot in this hobby and if they can give a good service to dealers and collectors alike for a reasonable price, (not $15 or $20 per card) then they can take alot of PSAs pie in time. JSA will most likely not be able to compete considering beckett gets their hand in the cookie jar. SGC MUST step up their promotional game, really plug this and step up the website etc. They must be ready and willing to give the collectors good deals and great service with this service and undercut the other 2 companies. Perhaps even a blue label vs. green or something to set them apart. I may give them a call tomorrow and see what they have in store and I would be willing to give them a try. Right now PSA has the market and there is no need to give service. I think competition of quality is healthy and SGC would be able to deliver if they push hard.


Jason

[shelly]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

. . . and say perhaps it was/could have been fellow autograph dealer Bill Corcoran ?

I'm only guessing BC just because of both of you had worked from Florida at one time or another, as well as co-hosted a hospitality room together at a Cleveland National, with Bob Feller as the visiting celebrity.

On a more serious note, I already feel that each and every one of my purchases from Jim Stinson, Richard Simon, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug Averitt, and Kevin Keating has come with a LOA (which may someday come in useful when the time comes to part with my collection); each came with a invoice written on company letterhead which I have saved. Nuf said.

You are correct. I do have one question. All the above named people have authenticated your collection. God forbid you now need money and you want to sell this collection. Who would buy it with the names you mentioned on the cert. You cant sell it on Ebay no one has any idea who these people are. Now you go to an auction house who does know who they are.
What happens? You now pay twenty percent to have it authenticated by the same TPA's. Now the the two or three wonders of the autograph world now say it is not authentic. Who are you going to sell it to ?
I must make this very clear I would trust all the people named above more than any TPA. I am just trying to relate to you what the public thinks.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Shelly is right on the money. He could not have hit the nail on the head any better. The bottom line is that it's not what people that know autographs believe, it is the common rube that just wants to feel good about his purchase. Anybody that has collected and bought autographs over the years would feel very comfortable buying from any of the guys listed. Those are not the people we are talking about.

BUT, people are sticking their head in the sand if you do not believe that having the PSA of JSA cert increases the demand for your item. The only arguement is that does it increase the amount more than the cost you incur. It's just like saying that encapsulation / grading does not help or increase the sale of a card. It's an arguement that just doesn't hold merit.

[Leon]

Sounds like good marketing to me.

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by shelly

You are correct. I do have one question. All the above named people have authenticated your collection. God forbid you now need money and you want to sell this collection. Who would buy it with the names you mentioned on the cert. You cant sell it on Ebay no one has any idea who these people are. Now you go to an auction house who does know who they are.
What happens? You now pay twenty percent to have it authenticated by the same TPA's. Now the the two or three wonders of the autograph world now say it is not authentic. Who are you going to sell it to ?
I must make this very clear I would trust all the people named above more than any TPA. I am just trying to relate to you what the public thinks.

I often forget that as an autograph collector who's primary focus (for the past 10-15 years) has been on obtaining obscure ballplayer autographs, that I have marginally little in common with the majority of baseball autograph collectors requiring a TPA. That's why I enjoy this forum so much. Regardless of how main stream, or obscure an individual's collecting focus is, the contributions by all members make for interesting reading, learning, and community sharing.

[RichardSimon]

I have a couple of thousand people on my mailing list.
I have sold thousands of autographs through my mailing list. It is my main source of business.
Many members of Net54 are members of my list and many have bought great items and many have been disappointed by missing out on great items, sorry guys most things I have are only one of a kind and you have to be quicker on the trigger .
In all the time that I have done this, I have only twice been asked if an item came with a TPA COA and that was from two totally new members of my list.
People who know me, know that I do not use TPA's and yet they have great trust in me.
The people who know me know that I would not try to sell an Ed "Delehanty" letter or try to sell two George W. Bush autopen letters that I had at the same time for easy comparison.
Find the experienced and knowledgeable dealers and auction houses and stick with them.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I have a couple of thousand people on my mailing list.
I have sold thousands of autographs through my mailing list. It is my main source of business.
Many members of Net54 are members of my list and many have bought great items and many have been disappointed by missing out on great items, sorry guys most things I have are only one of a kind and you have to be quicker on the trigger .
In all the time that I have done this, I have only twice been asked if an item came with a TPA COA and that was from two totally new members of my list.
People who know me, know that I do not use TPA's and yet they have great trust in me.
The people who know me know that I would not try to sell an Ed "Delehanty" letter or try to sell two George W. Bush autopen letters that I had at the same time for easy comparison.
Find the experienced and knowledgeable dealers and auction houses and stick with them.

Richard no one is saying that be the people that you sell dont trust you. I am saying if they need to sell because of an emergency would they get the same money because of your cert or would they have to spend money on a new cert from one of the TPA or put it in an auction to get the price its worth.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

Richard no one is saying that be the people that you sell dont trust you. I am saying if they need to sell because of an emergency would they get the same money because of your cert or would they have to spend money on a new cert from one of the TPA or put it in an auction to get the price its worth.

The answer to that question is simple, I buy collections ALL OF THE TIME that have been sold by me, or any of the other reputable dealers that have been mentioned here . Either from the original collector or their estates. I will occasionally ask to see a bill of sale but never a COA.
Most realize a substantial profit too over what they originally paid, especially over the span of the last 30, 20 or even 5 years.

And who better to sell to then the fellow that helped build your collection in the first place , lended free advice, gave opinions for free, and helped the collector avoid many of the hobby's horror stories.

In fact I recieve on average a collection or two a week and negotiate a deal. Maybe once a year I have to send a collection back because we can't agree on price but I honestly can't remember the last time I've ever had to send one back.
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Big Six]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

The answer to that question is simple, I buy collections ALL OF THE TIME that have been sold by me, or any of the other reputable dealers that have been mentioned here . Either from the original collector or their estates. I will occasionally ask to see a bill of sale but never a COA.
Most realize a substantial profit too over what they originally paid, especially over the span of the last 30, 20 or even 5 years.

And who better to sell to then the fellow that helped build your collection in the first place , lended free advice, gave opinions for free, and helped the collector avoid many of the hobby's horror stories.

In fact I recieve on average a collection or two a week and negotiate a deal. Maybe once a year I have to send a collection back because we can't agree on price but I honestly can't remember the last time I've ever had to send one back.
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

That's a great point, Jim. This thread had done a pretty good job making me feel awful about my autograph collection but what you wrote above makes me feel a lot better. And to think, it was a pretty obvious concept that I should have thought of myself...like Richard, keep up the good work!

PS...forgot to say thanks as I picked up a really nice Allie Reynolds from you a couple weeks back. Hope he gets in the Hall some day...great pitcher!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by shelly

All bull aside. This is just another place opening up for business. My question is why would the public accept them as people they should trust. They are not PSA or JSA . Global was a joke, why not them.
Jim and Rich might make jokes but who in the autograph authenticating world has any idea who they are. Every one on this site even David has respect for them, but what does it mean when your trying to sell something? Not anyone who is going to spend money or try and resell an item purchased from them.
Tell the truth if you had a piece authenticated by the above mentioned would you try and have it authenticated by PSA or JSA if and when you wanted to sell it?
If you had a great boxing piece would you send it to Travis. Not a chance in hell. This is all about money.

i always ask people do they want to get a cert from psa or jsa or find out if it is real? most just want the cert. i do have SMART PEOPLE who would send me stuff because they know other smart people would see my name on a cert and be confident it is real. i actually have a few who want to send me their stuff right now, because they want to know if it is real or not and why and an certification that is backed up by exemplars and evidence, and no secrets.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Leon

Sounds like good marketing to me.

it only goes so far, good marketing, lousy customer service, in time that plan will fall flat on its face. it will take someone to make a major push and have transparency, customer service, be accountable to the customer.

for now it may be working because abc is the same as xyz. same pricing structure, same customer service, same coa, same authentication.

woolworths used to be the biggest store chain on the planet, and i am sure the owner thought it would never end. its ends sometime, everything does.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by HOFAUTOS

I only get items I want to sell authenticated, and most collectors have never heard of Jim, Travis, Richard, or Chris, therefore they want the item to have a PSA/DNA or JSA certificate. I don't like it but that's the way things are. The first thing they ask us who is the cert from? Without even examining the autograph! It sucks that its this way but it is what it is.

Side note - I love the SGC holder and wouldn't mind getting some of my signed cards slabbed. That's why I wanted to know how much it is.

who is psa, what is psa's last name, does Jsa have a middle name?

i have never heard of the authenticators psa and jsa because authenticators are people and those are names of companies.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I would much rather give anyone on your list my business but when I go to sell at a show I show the cert or mention a name and they say "Oh so it's not PSA?"... So frustrating...

you have to educate them. tell them, "well let me introduce you to" ...

get a resume and reference sheet from those people and hand it out at the shows when they ask who they are.

counter with "who is psa"? "who is jsa?" which individual authenticated the psa or jsa item you are interested in. if they can't tell you, explain it to them, ask them "why do you trust the name psa or jsa when you do know who looked at it? hand out sheets with some of very bad mistakes they have made, and ask those people if they feel comfortable with those authentications.

[drc]

My guess is that when and if SGC starts authenticating autographs officially, they will say who are their authenticators. Until then, some of us are arguing about an event before it has (or hasn't) happened.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by travrosty

hand out sheets with some of very bad mistakes they have made, and ask those people if they feel comfortable with those authentications.

I'm surprised that you haven't created such 'sheets', in pdf format so that you can more easily advertise your personal disdain for these companies. If it's all true, I don't see what your concern might be, and now that you are recommending that others do it, I REALLY can't see what your concern would be.

SOGOTP

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm surprised that you haven't created such 'sheets', in pdf format so that you can more easily advertise your personal disdain for these companies. If it's all true, I don't see what your concern might be, and now that you are recommending that others do it, I REALLY can't see what your concern would be.

SOGOTP

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i always ask people do they want to get a cert from psa or jsa or find out if it is real? most just want the cert. i do have SMART PEOPLE who would send me stuff because they know other smart people would see my name on a cert and be confident it is real. i actually have a few who want to send me their stuff right now, because they want to know if it is real or not and why and an certification that is backed up by exemplars and evidence, and no secrets.

I have been told, by good sources, that dealers, including those who are big ebay sellers, know that an item is not good but it has a TPA cert and that is all they care about. Knowing it is not good they still go ahead and sell it.
It has a plastic tomb and a cert,,, it is good to go .
I have been told that this is the case but no evidence was shown to me to back up this story.

[JimStinson]

The blind leading the blind.....Kick it Ray !
"What'd I Say"
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[HRBAKER]

I don't really think it is too much to ask to know the name of the EXPERT whose opinion you are paying for. Just seems like so much common sense to me.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I don't really think it is too much to ask to know the name of the EXPERT whose opinion you are paying for. Just seems like so much common sense to me.

Was able to secure a photo of one of the "experts"......Common sense ??? what in the world is common sense ?
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[HRBAKER]

"Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain."

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

who is psa, what is psa's last name, does Jsa have a middle name?

i have never heard of the authenticators psa and jsa because authenticators are people and those are names of companies.

Which mutual funds do you own? Most people can name the fund, not the fund manager. The reputation of the company is the most important. People are always replaceable. PSA and JSA hire folks who they trust won't tarnish their reputation. If they do harm, they would be replaced. They survive and built a market because their level of expertise is pretty good. That means they get it right most of the time. In this world where we rely on the opinions of others in almost all aspects of our lives, right most of the time is all one can really expect.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I have been told, by good sources, that dealers, including those who are big ebay sellers, know that an item is not good but it has a TPA cert and that is all they care about. Knowing it is not good they still go ahead and sell it.
It has a plastic tomb and a cert,,, it is good to go .
I have been told that this is the case but no evidence was shown to me to back up this story.

there are collectors here that do that. i have been told that despite the evidence presented, that spence certed it and thats all they care about.

the oscar bonavena on ebay right now was returned by the first bidder who won it and returned it due to the fact its no good, even though it has a psa cert. the dealer relisted it. it has a psa cert by the way. who cares what the people with 20 or 30 years boxing autograph experience have to say about it.

some guy at psa who saw "Rocky" 5 times said it was good, so it must be.

i know there are people out there who know some of there stuff is no good, but sell it anyway due to the fact they won the "cert lottery"

the james corbett that was no good has a jsa cert and the holyfield slabbed card has a psa cert, and we presented the facts and those owners still love their psa and jsa certed autographs.

[Deertick]

I'm beginning to hope PSA certed Travis' birth certificate.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

Which mutual funds do you own? Most people can name the fund, not the fund manager. The reputation of the company is the most important. People are always replaceable. PSA and JSA hire folks who they trust won't tarnish their reputation. If they do harm, they would be replaced. They survive and built a market because their level of expertise is pretty good. That means they get it right most of the time. In this world where we rely on the opinions of others in almost all aspects of our lives, right most of the time is all one can really expect.

this statement is wrong on so many levels, its ridiculous.

psa and jsa dont hire people who know autographs to authenticate, they hire them for marketing purposes. psa hires autograph runners who are well connected into the ebay and storefront markets, not for their experience in knowing and authenticating autographs.

these people they hire are connected into the "on the street" market and have many contacts and psa wants them to bring in business. knowing the autograph is secondary.

steve grad "in person autograph runner"
zach rullo "in person autograph runner"
kevin low "in person autograph runner"
brian sobrero " in person autograph runner" who once tripped tiger woods and sprained tiger's knee due to over-aggresive pursuit of woods autograph.



thse guys are not replaced. wny? because the customers are not aware they are doing harm. its a "trust me, i know what i am doing and that autograph is (good/no good)",

there is no auditing function. a money market fund has hard outcomes that are quantifiable, you either lose money or make it, and decide to change funds. that is why you dont have to know the name of the fund manager, he will be retained or fired based on their results.

now people will say that psa and jsa are doing a good job because the autographs are accepted on ebay and auction houses. but they are erroneously assuming that auction houses and ebay know good autographs from bad. they say that because others accept the certs, that they must be good. but others say the same thing. It's a case of both parties relying on the others acceptance to justify how good the tpa is doing, but neither is doing any inspection, it's circular logic, but no meat in the sandwich.

name a customer of psa and jsa who quantifies the results of the authentications they get and decides to continue with that company based on that? no one does. it's quite the opposite, many people tell me that they know psa and jsa aren't very good, but ebay accepts the certs and it is what others want so they just go along with the "Game".

i have said all along you can either get a psa or jsa cert, or you can find out if the autograph is real.


the customer doesnt really know if that autograph is good or bad if it has a psa or jsa cert. they are just going along with what psa or jsa says. there is no consumer reports for autographs that can compare, audit, and give results.

psa and jsa expertise is NOT pretty good. it is lacking in many areas. Pretty good is not good enough. Getting it right MOST of the time is not good enough.

51% accuracy is good enough? That's most of the time.

flipping a coin is 50%, and it's free. they need to be right all the time minus a very miniscule amount of human error. obviously you havent seen the nine trillion examples we have been posting over the last 4 years.

i hope you expect more competancy from your gas line installer, your brake mechanic, your day care provider.

[Big Dave]

+1

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

this statement is wrong on so many levels, its ridiculous.

psa and jsa dont hire people who know autographs to authenticate, they hire them for marketing purposes. psa hires autograph runners who are well connected into the ebay and storefront markets, not for their experience in knowing and authenticating autographs.

these people they hire are connected into the "on the street" market and have many contacts and psa wants them to bring in business. knowing the autograph is secondary.

steve grad "in person autograph runner"
zach rullo "in person autograph runner"
kevin low "in person autograph runner"
brian sobrero " in person autograph runner" who once tripped tiger woods and sprained tiger's knee due to over-aggresive pursuit of woods autograph.



thse guys are not replaced. wny? because the customers are not aware they are doing harm. its a "trust me, i know what i am doing and that autograph is (good/no good)",

there is no auditing function. a money market fund has hard outcomes that are quantifiable, you either lose money or make it, and decide to change funds. that is why you dont have to know the name of the fund manager, he will be retained or fired based on their results.

now people will say that psa and jsa are doing a good job because the autographs are accepted on ebay and auction houses. but they are erroneously assuming that auction houses and ebay know good autographs from bad. they say that because others accept the certs, that they must be good. but others say the same thing. It's a case of both parties relying on the others acceptance to justify how good the tpa is doing, but neither is doing any inspection, it's circular logic, but no meat in the sandwich.

name a customer of psa and jsa who quantifies the results of the authentications they get and decides to continue with that company based on that? no one does. it's quite the opposite, many people tell me that they know psa and jsa aren't very good, but ebay accepts the certs and it is what others want so they just go along with the "Game".

i have said all along you can either get a psa or jsa cert, or you can find out if the autograph is real.


the customer doesnt really know if that autograph is good or bad if it has a psa or jsa cert. they are just going along with what psa or jsa says. there is no consumer reports for autographs that can compare, audit, and give results.

psa and jsa expertise is NOT pretty good. it is lacking in many areas. Pretty good is not good enough. Getting it right MOST of the time is not good enough.

51% accuracy is good enough? That's most of the time.

flipping a coin is 50%, and it's free. they need to be right all the time minus a very miniscule amount of human error. obviously you havent seen the nine trillion examples we have been posting over the last 4 years.

i hope you expect more competancy from your gas line installer, your brake mechanic, your day care provider.

We agree to disagree on the level of competence of the tpas. Are you saying psa or jsa is equal to global or morales or ace? For the shear number of autos they look at, their record is pretty good, probably over 95%. You're saying they are wrong half the time? There are 781 psa mantles. Pick out the 380 that you think they got wrong.

[David Atkatz]

Will people please stop comparing PSA and JSA with Morales, et.al.?
PSA and JSA actually try to authenticate. They're just not that good at it.
Morales and his ilk are NOT authenticators. They give an automatic thumbs-up to everything. They are very good ta what they do. And what they do is defraud the public.

[cubsfan-budman]

i know know about my mutual funds, but this thread continues to pay dividends!

/popcorn!

[Sean1125]

I've had an item authenticated by PSA that JSA told me was traced over.

(Original Collection--->JSA (NG)--->PSA (issues full Loa))

[markf31]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the customer doesnt really know if that autograph is good or bad if it has a psa or jsa cert. they are just going along with what psa or jsa says.

But that's the case when most and certainly the large majority of customers buy autographs from anyone. Most buyers don't know how to tell a good autograph from a bad one, thats why they rely on the opinions of others. I trust Jim, Richard, Kevin, etc... but at the end of the day, when I purchase an auotgraph from them I'm simply "going along with what they say"...because I trust them completely.

[shelly]

The bottom line is that if you do not have a cert by the top tpa's you will not sell at the same price from all of our beloved experts on this site. If anyone of you can show me where I a wrong I will donate 20 dollars to what ever fund Leon has.
I am not talking about keeping an item I am only talking about selling to any of the top auction houses. The only[person that might not care is Josh Evans because he will replace it with his own. The rest of them will not accept a cert from our guys. RandR , Robert Edwards. Memory Lane. Hunt, you name them and show me on cert from anyone but they should not be named
It cant be on piece. It must be understood that I trust these guys more than the others but when it comes down to the money it does not count. You can trust to get their opinion but you can not sell and opinion from them.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by markf31

Most buyers don't know how to tell a good autograph from a bad one, thats why they rely on the opinions of others.

Mark, you make a very good point. This is exactly why the hobby NEEDS authenticators. But you STILL have to do your research, either yourself on the signature, or on the authenticators.

Edited - removed the argumentative part

[drc]

In any area of collecting, asking for the opinions and input from others is important-- whether the other is a museum curator or just a fellow collecting friend nextdoor who has some experience in the area. There's nothing wrong per se with a PSA or JSA LOA-- as long as you treat it as an opinion and not as gospel.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

The bottom line is that if you do not have a cert by the top tpa's you will not sell at the same price from all of our beloved experts on this site. If anyone of you can show me where I a wrong I will donate 20 dollars to what ever fund Leon has.
I am not talking about keeping an item I am only talking about selling to any of the top auction houses. The only[person that might not care is Josh Evans because he will replace it with his own. The rest of them will not accept a cert from our guys. RandR , Robert Edwards. Memory Lane. Hunt, you name them and show me on cert from anyone but they should not be named
It cant be on piece. It must be understood that I trust these guys more than the others but when it comes down to the money it does not count. You can trust to get their opinion but you can not sell and opinion from them.

I really am not being sarcastic or trying to be funny but are you saying that if someone whos estate or collection with a value of oh lets say $100,000 and consists of ...oh lets say 19th century autograph rarities and they send them to a reputable and reasonably intelligent auction house or dealer that they will refuse to buy or sell them based on the fact they do not have a COA ????
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I really am not being sarcastic or trying to be funny but are you saying that if someone whos estate or collection with a value of oh lets say $100,000 and consists of ...oh lets say 19th century autograph rarities and they send them to a reputable and reasonably intelligent auction house or dealer that they will refuse to buy or sell them based on the fact they do not have a COA ????
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

+1

the good stuff doesnt need the certs, people can think for themselves. how DOES leland's stay in business?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by drc

In any area of collecting, asking for the opinions and input from others is important-- whether the other is a museum curator or just a fellow collecting friend nextdoor who has some experience in the area. There's nothing wrong per se with a PSA or JSA LOA-- as long as you treat it as an opinion and not as gospel.

Except that it is treated as gospel. The majority of "collectors" won't buy anything that doesn't have a PSA or JSA CoA, and will buy anything that does.

[HRBAKER]

The Third Party certs make it easy for the AHs to wash their
hands of any potential issues. Make it easy for them to pose
as nothing but a conduit. Hence they love them, that and plus
it makes the items more liquid.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Except that it is treated as gospel. The majority of "collectors" won't buy anything that doesn't have a PSA or JSA CoA, and will buy anything that does.

Isn't that mainly just true of flippers or re-sellers? When I buy a 'permanent' piece for my collection, I don't care whether or not it has a COA. It's nice if it does, but that won't affect what I'm willing to pay.

And that's true of at least one other collector on this board. I recently sold a handwritten Walter Johnson letter to him and forgot to even mention the PSA/DNA COA. I found it yesterday while cleaning out a drawer - had forgotten it had come with one.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Isn't that mainly just true of flippers or re-sellers? When I buy a 'permanent' piece for my collection, I don't care whether or not it has a COA. It's nice if it does, but that won't affect what I'm willing to pay.

And that's true of at least one other collector on this board. I recently sold a handwritten Walter Johnson letter to him and forgot to even mention the PSA/DNA COA. I found it yesterday while cleaning out a drawer - had forgotten it had come with one.

Scott, that's why "collectors" was in quotes. the majority of them are not on this board. Howe many autograph collectors are here? One hundred or so?
Hardly enough to keep JSA and PSA in business.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I really am not being sarcastic or trying to be funny but are you saying that if someone whos estate or collection with a value of oh lets say $100,000 and consists of ...oh lets say 19th century autograph rarities and they send them to a reputable and reasonably intelligent auction house or dealer that they will refuse to buy or sell them based on the fact they do not have a COA ????
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I am saying that the auction house will not use your coa but that of Jsa and Psa to make more money. Is this not ture?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

The Third Party certs make it easy for the AHs to wash their
hands of any potential issues. Make it easy for them to pose
as nothing but a conduit. Hence they love them, that and plus
it makes the items more liquid.

This man just condensed 10 hours of truth into a couple sentences ....Its inarguable.
Now let me say something that pales in comparision BUT should be said only because of the inevitable rebutals and that is THIS...

I like to play cards ....according to the "Book of Hoyle" which is the card players bible so to speak the rule is "THE CARDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES" which means when I lay down my cards and say I have a straight but in reality I have a STRAIGHT FLUSH , Then if I call it an elephant or giraffe or whatever I call it ....the cards still speak for themselves , it is what it is regardless of what I or anyone else calls it ...it is what it is , The CARDS speak for themselves
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

Originally Posted by travrosty

+1

the good stuff doesnt need the certs, people can think for themselves. how DOES leland's stay in business?

Travis you hate them so what ever you say is biased. I am trying to say that your coa compared to the jsa's will not get the same money or they will have yours cert changed to theirs if it is an auction house. Six out of the top Seven houses use those guys. There must be a reason

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

I am saying that the auction house will not use your coa but that of Jsa and Psa to make more money. Is this not ture?

Shelly are you posting from Jamaica ? tell the truth
What I am saying is that a reputable dealer with an untarnished reputation will sell autographs for MORE money based on their consistant performance of excellence and customer service for MORE than a seller that is flailing around blindly in the dark and needs to rely or worse throw off responsibility to another party , whatever they call themselves. To quote one of my previous posts THE CARDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES no one is going to turn away a substantial collection based on COA's or TPA's or whatever you want to call them. And I SINCERELY hope you are correct because if thats the case I have just recieved a MASSIVE pay increase
Friend JIM
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

Jim, I only wished I was in Jamaica , but I am talking reality.I will say this one more time a Psa Mantle, vs. your cert or Richards who is going to get more money. You must be smoking bad Jamaican weed.
Tell me any auction house that will use your cert vs. Psa.
You know I am telling the truth. Why am I the bad guy?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

Jim, I only wished I was in Jamaica , but I am talking reality.I will say this one more time a Psa Mantle, vs. your cert or Richards who is going to get more money. You must be smoking bad Jamaican weed.
Tell me any auction house that will use your cert vs. Psa.
You know I am telling the truth. Why am I the bad guy?

Well ...I don;t know how to answer that question because almost 100% of the autographs I offer on my e-mail updates sell within 48 hours , so I don;t really need to use an auction house , what would I send them? AIR ? I monitor auction results all of the time , I work 15 hours a day 7 days a week.
So while I don;t "Mill around smartly" at card shows I have a pretty good handle on what things should and shouldn't sell for and I don;t smoke weed , jamaician or otherwise but I do love a cold beer from time to time , Now what were you saying ?
__________________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

The subject has nothing to do with who you are and how and what your reputation is. It is about fact no matter how good you are you can not compete against the tpa
I have no idea why you want to argue. I have all the respect in the world for you but this is not about you your ego. It is a fact.

If I had enough money so that no matter what happens my kids and wife would be taken care of no matter what I would buy from any of the people that we have talked about . I am saying if God forbids and I do need the money and the not to mentioned people decide that it is not real. What is that autograph worth with your cert. Or even if it is real can you get more money with your cert versus theirs ? Not a chance in hell.
You can tell me your background and everything you have ever sold. Tell me if anyone other than a true collector has any idea who you are. Jim Utah is a strange place but if needed I can set you up for a good piece of Jamaican pie.

This has nothing to do with facts it all has to do with deception.
Just put up a site and ask who would they want a cert from if they really had to sell something.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Well ...I don;t know how to answer that question because almost 100% of the autographs I offer on my e-mail updates sell within 48 hours ,__________________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Boy, that's the truth. Jim is the only reason I have email alerts coming to my phone so I don't miss out.

[Big Dave]

If their autograph business gets off the ground, and they get on eBay's approved authentication list, I hope it is not the same good old boy type of authentication company. The kind of company where a lot of it depends on who you know, and how much business you do with that company. Happens to often.