former ebay head Gonzalez purported said psa and jsa suck according to post.

[danc]

Travis, you assume people love your threads and give you love because you are "beloved" within, and that simply isn't the case. People just like arguing with you. Don't confuse the two.

We get it, you don't like PSA/DNA or JSA because they make mistakes on Boxing autographs. Do you have more knowledge in that avenue then them? Perhaps. Probably. But the bottom line is that with all due respect, nobody knows who you are outside of the Net54, which is a baseball forum, for the most part. A Randy Turpin autograph with a Travis LOA will bring little attention outside of saying "Who is this Travis guy?".

TPA's (PSA/DNA and JSA) work. That's why people use them. We (the new collector) have been programmed and re-designed to understand that the certificate of authenticity is in fact key (who really cares about what the signature looks like, just look at the Art Shell debacle on the card side) and this is the essential part of the collecting world.

"Does it come with an LOA from PSA/DNA?" is the most often heard words spoken at shows. That's just a fact. Love it or hate it, complaining constantly isn't going to matter, but if it makes you feel like you made some sort of a difference because you type and type and type with an intense fear of the SHIFT key. :-)

I got in contact with John and I asked him if he was interested in commenting through me on his behalf on this thread and he politely declined.

A web site took private comments and made them public with a clear agenda, and then rehashed (which is fine, if you like the message and we know you do) in this thread. Nobody is ever going to confuse anybody on these forums for Woodward and Bernstein.

And I like curling...it's like chess on ice.

DanC

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by danc

Travis, you assume people love your threads and give you love because you are "beloved" within, and that simply isn't the case. People just like arguing with you. Don't confuse the two.

We get it, you don't like PSA/DNA or JSA because they make mistakes on Boxing autographs. Do you have more knowledge in that avenue then them? Perhaps. Probably. But the bottom line is that with all due respect, nobody knows who you are outside of the Net54, which is a baseball forum, for the most part. A Randy Turpin autograph with a Travis LOA will bring little attention outside of saying "Who is this Travis guy?".

TPA's work. That's why people use them. We (the new collector) have been programmed and re-designed to understand that the certificate of authenticity is in fact key (who really cares about what the signature looks like, just look at the Art Shell debacle on the card side) and this is the essential part of the collecting world.

"Does it come with an LOA from PSA/DNA?" is the most often heard words spoken at shows. That's just a fact. Love it or hate it, complaining constantly isn't going to matter, but if it makes you feel like you made some sort of a difference because you type and type and type with an intense fear of the SHIFT key. :-)

I got in contact with John and I asked him if he was interested in commenting through me on his behalf on this thread and he politely declined.

A web site took private comments and made them public with a clear agenda, and then rehashed (which is fine, if you like the message and we know you do) in this thread. Nobody is ever going to confuse anybody on these forums for Woodward and Bernstein.

And I like curling...it's like chess on ice.

DanC

Well written, Danny.

[shelly]

I have no Idea who Danny C is but if he likes that broom sport from up north he can't really be a bad guy. He must be from one of those little cities in the US that only get Canadian tv. I have to say that some of the most beautiful Oriental women do Canadian broadcasting.

[RichardSimon]

I think I know who DanC is Shelly . He is one of those weird guys who would like curling .
I do believe he is an autograph guy with a nice but smallish ebay store. . (with zero PSA LOA's I believe).
I just want to say to him and others here, that maybe at shows autograph dealers do get asked for PSA LOA's but having sold many thousands of autographs in my career I have only been asked for a PSA LOA only twice. And both times when I explained why I don't have one the (brand new) client bought the item anyway.

[shelly]

Richard, then you agree that life without tpa's would be just fine. I would also thing that people would save a great deal of money.
I will even go out on a limb and say that before all this is over many of the people on here might find that fact to be true.
As far as the kid from Prince Edward Island what else do you have to do there but watch tv and fish and have a small Ebay store.

[danc]

Richard, I don't use TPA's of any sorts as you know and have managed just fine, as you have as well.

But people who need assistance in a complicated collecting genre often need help and this is their safety net because not everyone is specifically educated like yourself or "Boom Boom" Travis. The hobby is so used to using someone to determine whether something is legitimate or not, a new world without TPA's may open up even more avenue's for fraud and unsure collectors will lose interest (especially if two are discredited).

Rich, your clientele deal with you because they don't need to go to a TPA, but how about you leave your penthouse and go to a show at least once every ten years and witness what I witness? :-)

Shelly, wtf...

DanC

[shelly]

So what you are saying is no matter what is right or wrong people need to think that it is authentic?
I am not fighting with you I agree with you. What bothers me is that is truly a shame. I know from many years of knowledge that is what made this hobby a playground for forgers.

WTF

h to chi.

[tinkereversandme]

As a someewhat new collector who hasn't spent over $100 for an autograph I entrust and trust TPAs because while people on this board say the are experts they have the time and talent to know what I can't know working two jobs. I ask a few people who help me to get a little more insurance on my purchase (dan has helped me a lot, thanks) and therefore a TPA is something the hobby needs for the ten's of thousands like me that are not experts but want to enjoy a great hobby. Just saying. I also enjoy this forum a great deal and have learned quite a bit.

Regards,

Larry

[markf31]

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems something has been missed this entire thread about the original topic and the linked story. See if you can follow my logic:

The story talks about John Gonzales, the former head of Ebay’s fraud division.
It also says he, John Gonzales, dealt DIRECTLY with the handful of authenticators chosen by Ebay.
Now logically, who at Ebay would make that decision to only work with certain Authenticators?
Wouldn’t you think, that it would be Ebays FRAUD division who decided to deal with only a handful of authenticators?
Wouldn’t it be the FRAUD division’s decision who Ebay stood behind?
And who was the HEAD of this division….oh, it was John Gonzales.
If John Gonzales had such a big problem with TPAs….being the head of the FRAUD division, wouldn’t he have the power to do something about it???
I mean he is the head of the department that makes these determinations you would think.

The article goes on to say
“Those in the field of autographs would be shocked to know how many good dealers were removed from eBay for selling genuine autographs deemed fake by PSA/DNA and JSA.”

So what department do you think removed these “good dealers”
Don’t you think that if there was even a question about a dealers credentials, if the dealer was suspected of hawking forged autographs, that it would be the FRAUD division to make the decision to remove them from Ebay?
And again, who was the HEAD of the FRAUD division?
Oh, that’s right it was John Gonzales.
If John Gonzales had such a big problem with Ebay removing reputable dealers, a decision that would have come from the FRAUD division, that John Gonzales being the head of this department, he had the power to step in and take control??
Those “good dealers” were removed ON HIS WATCH!!!

The article continues:
“It has been a conspiracy going on for years, if an expert is asked to join one of the group and they refuse, their material would later be failed by eBay’s authenticators and the sellers would be banned from eBay.”
And again, what department was in charge of banning sellers because they were hawking suspect autographs and authentications?
The Fraud division

Does anyone else see the glaring contradictions in this article?
The logic works for me.
That Ebay’s fraud division would be in charge of removing crooked dealers and forgers and of determining those authenticators that are trustworthy and reputable. If John Gonzales was in charge of this division, and as the article states, he was the head of Ebay’s fraud division for a “very long time” …don’t you think he had the power to take steps to fix these problems he supposedly has/had?

John Gonzales was the head of Ebay’s fraud division for a very long time, if ANYONE had the power to change the culture of autograph authentication on Ebay, it would have been John Gonzales.

[RichardSimon]

I don't know if John made that purported statement or not but four points should be made clear.

1-To the best of my knowledge PSA and JSA were on the ebay approved authenticator list before John took over the fraud department. To the best of my knowledge John had nothing to do with PSA or JSA getting on that list.
If someone knows for sure that is not the case then please correct me. I don't know the exact time frame involved here but I believe that I am correct. But feel free to correct me if you have specific knowledge that I am wrong.

2-John helped form a team of knowledgeable hobby people who were vetted by him and joined the ebay reporting team (at no pay, this was strictly a voluntary thing). The group spent countless hours combing ebay for bogus items, autographs, cards and memorabilia. There were some very, very knowledgeable people in this group. Many bogus items were removed by the team. It got to a point where one extremely knowledgeable person joined the team and even items with PSA and JSA certs were removed from ebay. (remember the $80,000 Walter Johnson ball?).

3-John is still at ebay but in a totally different end of their business. He did not leave ebay.
His surprising move out of the fraud department, I believe, was due to his frustration about the autograph business on ebay.

4-This is speculation on my part but John while he was head of the fraud department did have people that he reported to. He did not have 100% freedom to do what he wanted to do.

[JimStinson]

Whatever John G. had to say in private (Good or Bad) about PSA, JSA, AA, AAA, AARP or the NAACP was his business.

As for E-Bay before and after , I'll tell you an experience I recently had and I'll leave it up to those that are smarter than I am to figure it out because it baffles me.

FIRST let me say I have been an active seller on E-Bay for almost 9 years and in those 9 years have had over 15,000 transactions and a feedback score of 100%. I've been an autograph dealer for over 30 years.

I have NEVER , NOT one time EVER had E-Bay take down an autograph because of questions regarding its authenticity. Two weeks ago I sold a $450.00 autograph that was a no-brainer signature on an album page which came out of an IN-PERSON autograph book that had sold at auction a few years ago and HAD A COA from a TPA but I did not mention it in the item description.

The buyer paid for the item I shipped it and ONE WEEK LATER E-Bay sent me an e-mail saying they had taken the item down because of questions regarding its authenticity and that I was NOT to relist it

The buyer then recieved an e-mail from e-bay telling him he did not have to follow through on the transaction, The buyer and I exchanged e-mails , he lives in another country and had not recieved it yet but he assured me that based on the image he had seen on e-bay he was certain it was genuine and I assured him that if he wanted to that at any time he could return it for a refund. I then sent him a copy of the COA from the TPA which happens to be one of E-Bays MOST trusted authentication companies.

48 hours later the buyer files a complaint with pay pal that the autograph he recieved in the mail is a PHOTOCOPY and wants a refund which he gets. I can say THIS for sure the autograph I sold and shipped was 100% and without question NOT a photo copy. But of course how would I ever prove that to pay pal especially in light of the fact that E-Bay has already told the buyer ONE WEEK after he bought it that the autograph had "issues" ?

The whole thing starts to look like a scene out of "The Gang That couldn;t shoot straight" and leaves me to wonder , Who the heck is watching the store ????

[Big Dave]

Can you post the buyer's eBay user name?

Want to put him/her on my block bidder list.

[JimStinson]

With regards to my post in this thread, I have and do always believe that people are good considering the number of transactions I do I can count the "bad" experiences and scammers on one hand. The person who recieved the autograph , examined it again and then had an expert examine it again for him and agrees with me that the autograph is 100% authentic and believes that e-bay made a blatant error in removing it and in their follow up e-mails to him. Have included a copy of his e-mail. He is from another country and his english is not the best but here is what he said

dear Mr Stinson, I am sorry for what happened; I opened a case because EBay and Paypal made me in a hurry; after a brief term I had not further occasion to ask for a refund; anyway now I am satisfied for the item I bought from you- I emphasize both your professionality and your long experience in autograph and signature. I close well the case and I'll not send you the signature. I apologize my querry and I hope for your comprehension.
I cannot give you a feedback; the item was removed but in my opinion I should give you a 5 stars positive feedback, for your patience, communication and professionality- I strongly hope to deal again with you in future and I hope, too, you'll not remind the trouble I caused.
Yours sincerely from

[isaac2004]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Whatever John G. had to say in private (Good or Bad) about PSA, JSA, AA, AAA, AARP or the NAACP was his business.

As for E-Bay before and after , I'll tell you an experience I recently had and I'll leave it up to those that are smarter than I am to figure it out because it baffles me.

FIRST let me say I have been an active seller on E-Bay for almost 9 years and in those 9 years have had over 15,000 transactions and a feedback score of 100%. I've been an autograph dealer for over 30 years.

I have NEVER , NOT one time EVER had E-Bay take down an autograph because of questions regarding its authenticity. Two weeks ago I sold a $450.00 autograph that was a no-brainer signature on an album page which came out of an IN-PERSON autograph book that had sold at auction a few years ago and HAD A COA from a TPA but I did not mention it in the item description.

The buyer paid for the item I shipped it and ONE WEEK LATER E-Bay sent me an e-mail saying they had taken the item down because of questions regarding its authenticity and that I was NOT to relist it

The buyer then recieved an e-mail from e-bay telling him he did not have to follow through on the transaction, The buyer and I exchanged e-mails , he lives in another country and had not recieved it yet but he assured me that based on the image he had seen on e-bay he was certain it was genuine and I assured him that if he wanted to that at any time he could return it for a refund. I then sent him a copy of the COA from the TPA which happens to be one of E-Bays MOST trusted authentication companies.

48 hours later the buyer files a complaint with pay pal that the autograph he recieved in the mail is a PHOTOCOPY and wants a refund which he gets. I can say THIS for sure the autograph I sold and shipped was 100% and without question NOT a photo copy. But of course how would I ever prove that to pay pal especially in light of the fact that E-Bay has already told the buyer ONE WEEK after he bought it that the autograph had "issues" ?

The whole thing starts to look like a scene out of "The Gang That couldn;t shoot straight" and leaves me to wonder , Who the heck is watching the store ????

But her returned the item correct? Just checking, because I have been nearly burned with returns from other countries (had to be on the phone with paypal multiple times)

[JimStinson]

No I offered to allow him to return it as I have a liberal return policy anyway in addition to lifetime guarantee of authenticity. But he WANTS to keep the item has closed the transaction out and the "held" funds were then released.

[isaac2004]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

No I offered to allow him to return it as I have a liberal return policy anyway in addition to lifetime guarantee of authenticity. But he WANTS to keep the item has closed the transaction out and the "held" funds were then released.

Lovely... and I am guessing ebay wont help with that

[drc]

I thought the item in dispute had to be returned first. eBay usually takes the buyer's side, but normally requires the buyer to return the item before refund is given. At least that's what I thought.

[thecatspajamas]

Jim,
Congrats on seeing that situation through to the end and actually getting a favorable outcome for you and the seller both. Sometimes patience and understanding pays off. Unfortunately, that is all-too-often not the case when dealing with eBay. I think it helps that you had a buyer that was not only honest, but willing to put in a couple of extra minutes communicating with eBay (also all-too-often not the case).

[David Atkatz]

Similar thing happened to me, Jim. A while back I concurrently posted a Ruth/Gehrig ball on eBay, and on the Net54 B/S/T. The ball had a PSA certificate when I obtained it, and so I listed it as such. I received a number of emails, but the next thing I know, eBay removed the listing.

A potential buyer contacted me, and I explained the situation--the removal by eBay--but assured him I stood behind the ball and offered (of course) a full refund should he not be satisfied. As he lived in SoCal, he wanted to bring the ball to PSA to recheck the ball's--and the certificate's authenticity.

I marked the ball "sold" on the B/S/T thread, and was immediately accused of dishonesty by two of the board's prominent members for daring to sell an item that all-knowing eBay removed.

[travrosty]

we had listed a signed 8 x 10 from a private signing session we did and included a photo of the guy signing the photos as proof, and ebay took it down over "authenticity issues" and told us not to relist it.

it was a case of sour grapes , someone reporting stuff because they dont like the person and it had nothing to do with authenticity. thats why gonzalez was having a headache. some of the guys reporting bad stuff to him were just reporting it for spite. there are plenty of psa and jsa items still up that will never get taken down even though they are bad. some that get taken down are good, and who is watching the watchers? no one is watching the watchers, they will do what they want and make it hell for someone if they want.

[toybulldog]

there are plenty of psa and jsa items still up that will never get taken down even though they are bad. some that get taken down are good, and who is watching the watchers? no one is watching the watchers, they will do what they want and make it hell for someone if they want.

They certainly flubbed the real "Toy Bulldog" Mickey Walker here. How is it you can often put these TPA autographs smack dab in the middle of genuine exemplars and they show no resemblance at all? If they are giving their opinion that this is real, how are they forming that opinion? Does this particular TPA have any 1931 Mickey Walker exemplars that are consistent with this autograph? If so I would like to see them. If they don't have any consistent exemplars would this be considered a mistake or would this be a fraud? Would this be showing favortism to a certain submitter or a certain auction house from which this came from?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271037362197...84.m1438.l2649

WE send ebay stuff like this all the time but they leave them up with their evidenceless silly letters and stickers.

[travrosty]

exactly what i am talking about, you can't get this jsa certed piece off of ebay now. it has the almighty's coa now, so no amount of evidence is going to show ebay that it's no good. They can't go against their "preapproved" authenticators, because it would show the world that the world experts don't know Mickey Walker.

[travrosty]

......

[itslarry]

Ive been reading this for a hot minute now, i kinda understand what everyones yelling about, but what should be done in your opinion travis?
Like a few others have mentioned, for those of us just getting into the hobby TPA are pretty good. Sure they aren't fail proof and i understand that i should do some simple checking around, but with my lack of knowledge and limited are there any other alternatives out there?

[markf31]

Originally Posted by travrosty

exactly what i am talking about, you can't get this jsa certed piece off of ebay now. it has the almighty's coa now, so no amount of evidence is going to show ebay that it's no good. They can't go against their "preapproved" authenticators, because it would show the world that the world experts don't know Mickey Walker.

Ebay has in the past removed JSA and PSA authenticated items, now granted it might be a little more difficult to convince Ebay to remove JSA and PSA authenticated items. But we don't know the guidelines Ebay uses for pulling items. I would think at a minimum, a certain number of complaints about a specific item or even a seller would be needed to trigger a red flag where Ebay would look into a listing. You certainly can't expect Ebay to pull an item because 3, 4 or even 5 people email them questioning it's authenticity, can you? That simply opens the door for petty and vindictive accusations between sellers.


The fact is we don't know what Ebay's protocol is for removing suspected forgeries, and as a result it's diffcicult to make broad general accusations against them when we don't know what their policies are.

[Stalwart Fellow]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Then why did you post it?

It is purported that you know the author of that article/post.

Maybe you can convince the author to come over here and show us the original email exchanges and for the author to identify himself?

Truthisoutthere;

Shame on you...

were Travrosty, or anyone else, to post those Emails it would undoubtedly be a violation of forum rules!

http://www.net54baseball.com/faq.php?faq=testfaq#faq_12

Please refrain from asking others to violate these rules

كريستوفر وليامز

[Stalwart Fellow]

Originally Posted by itslarry

Ive been reading this for a hot minute now, i kinda understand what everyones yelling about, but what should be done in your opinion travis?
Like a few others have mentioned, for those of us just getting into the hobby TPA are pretty good. Sure they aren't fail proof and i understand that i should do some simple checking around, but with my lack of knowledge and limited are there any other alternatives out there?

It seems that there are many who have issues with PSA/DNA

http://www.autographnewslive.com/19-...rs-have-to-say

My suggestion as to who to believe?

Pert near everyone...

Travis should go right ahead and keep doing what he does!
Christopher Williams also.

...and certainly don't put anyone or any organization on a pedestal (Big mistake!).

Travis used his Name over at Autograph Magazine Live and where has that gotten him? Was he a coward? What role does he hold at AML now?

There was a time Christopher Williams did NOT Identify himself with his name at AML..., what has that done for him?

Fox News, MSNBC, CNN who do you trust for your news?

Dan Rather, Walter Cronkite, Hearst Newspapers?

The Internet?

Seems some do.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Stalwart Fellow

...and certainly don't put anyone or any organization on a pedestal (Big mistake!).

I just want to tell you that I agree with this line of your post. And that it is the only line of your post that I completely understand.

[travrosty]

exactly right, i posted my name at aml, always blogged under my own name, what a coward , huh?

it got me banned, when people who won't tell anyone their real name blog away and chris williams doesnt care and doesnt demand they identify themselves.

but at autographnewslive, where you get the unvarnished truth, now all of the sudden this anonymous blogging is a problem. why?

everyone i know has seen this email by now and has had access to it for quite awhile. he did say what he said, that they suck. if you havent seen the email by now, what can i tell you?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by itslarry

Ive been reading this for a hot minute now, i kinda understand what everyones yelling about, but what should be done in your opinion travis?
Like a few others have mentioned, for those of us just getting into the hobby TPA are pretty good. Sure they aren't fail proof and i understand that i should do some simple checking around, but with my lack of knowledge and limited are there any other alternatives out there?

news flash, tpa are NOT pretty good, the two in question anyway.

the alternative is to know what you are buying. ask real professionals, long time dealers and collectors and not some guy sitting behind a desk who doesnt even know mickey walker, doesnt know john l sullivan, doesnt know james corbett, doesnt know, james jeffries, doesnt know jack johnson, doesnt now jack dempsey, doesnt know joe louis, doesnt know rocky marciano, doesn't know sonny liston, doesnt know muhammad ali, doesnt know evender holyfield, doesnt know marvin hagler, doesnt know battling nelson, doesnt know lius firpo. you say they are pretty good, gotta be kidding me.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

news flash, tpa are NOT pretty good, the two in question anyway.

the alternative is to know what you are buying. ask real professionals, long time dealers and collectors and not some guy sitting behind a desk who doesnt even know mickey walker, doesnt know john l sullivan, doesnt know james corbett, doesnt know, james jeffries, doesnt know jack johnson, doesnt now jack dempsey, doesnt know joe louis, doesnt know rocky marciano, doesn't know sonny liston, doesnt know muhammad ali, doesnt know evender holyfield, doesnt know marvin hagler, doesnt know battling nelson, doesnt know lius firpo. you say they are pretty good, gotta be kidding me.

You have convinced me that they are not pretty good in boxing. I don't collect boxing. Have never bought or even considered a single auto.

I collect baseball, and think they are pretty good (not perfect or infallible) in baseball. Don't know what else to say.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

And that it is the only line of your post that I completely understand.

That's good old Grant Vander Streek. He's a real stalwart fellow.

[Stalwart Fellow]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

That's good old Grant Vander Streek. He's a real stalwart fellow.

No "r" after "e" in the last name

[travrosty]

5900 hits, this article must have been something people wanted to read but the mainstream collectors media outlets have been unable or unwilling to report on. that is why autographnewslive is important, to tell the stories others are unwilling to tell.

it broke the al pacino-al ruddy story pawn stars story and many more.