T206 Wagner value after Mastro confesses to cutting it

[BeanTown]

I think if we can learn from history, without a doubt the value will increase. Its all about the hype and the story that goes with it. The PSA mis graded T-206 Wagner card will now become one if the most sod after cards in the sports market. It's appeal most likely will be to the wealthy who want to have it as a social statis item or a conversation piece!

Take a look at the coin market and the 1913 Liberty nickel. Most likey case was a mint worker restruck 6 coins with the 1913 year on it right before they destroyed the die. He waited 7 years before showing up at a couple of coin shows to display them. Then he marketed them by advertising a high amount of money would be paid if anyone that could come up with one.

Here is aquick story on it.

http://coins.about.com/od/famousrare...913_Nickel.htm


I'm sure there are other examples where the hype and story has made an item get record setting prices everytime it comes to the market. I think another item is a rare art painting that the UCLA library has on display. It was originally done from a husband to mock the art community because his wife's work was not accepted. This man had never painted before and hetried to make it the ugliest painting ever seen... Samething played out over the years with that item.


My guess for the price of the now trimmed (industry known) T206 PSA Wagner card is over 5 million!!! It most likely will be in the same holder tooas the "new" owner can decide what to do.

[prestigecollectibles]

I noticed the PSA 8 is not listed in the pop report. Was it always like this or was it changed? You would think the owner of the PSA 5 would claim to have the highest example graded.

[pokerplyr80]

I think it's been known for quite a while that he trimmed that card. I don't think it will have any impact on the value. Altered or not it's still the nicest example of the most valuable card in the hobby, by a wide margin. Way out of my league, but 5 mil sounds like a reasonable estimate to me.

No one in their right mind would ever remove it from it's current holder. The card doesn't bring any where close to 5 mil in a PSA authentic, altered holder.

[pokerplyr80]

I just saw your post Robert. I had to check the Pop report to verify for myself. I do remember seeing it before and there was an 8. I'm assuming it must have been changed. I find it hard to believe that PSA bought the card back to remove it from the population report. But I suppose according to their guarantee that's what they are supposed to do.

I just typed 00000001 into their cert verification link and it says it wasn't found in their database.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

The PSA mis graded T-206 Wagner card will now become one if the most sod after cards in the sports market.

Definitely.

[Sophiedog]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

I noticed the PSA 8 is not listed in the pop report. Was it always like this or was it changed? You would think the owner of the PSA 5 would claim to have the highest example graded.

They still have it in their price list 4,000,000 for PSA8

Throwing (HOF)

Shop
45 75 120 225 400 625 1350 5500 20000

Heinie Wagner (bat on left shoulder)

Shop
16 32 50 85 140 235 565 1600+ 3200

Heinie Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Shop
16 32 50 85 140 235 565 1600+ 3200

Honus Wagner (HOF)

Shop
400000 675000+ 1300000 1800000 2500000 4000000

Bobby Wallace (HOF)

Shop
45 75 120 215 390 635 1500 5250 26500

Ed Walsh (HOF)

Shop
45 75 120 215 395 635 1450 5350

Jack Warhop

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I think if we can learn from history, without a doubt the value will increase. Its all about the hype and the story that goes with it. The PSA mis graded T-206 Wagner card will now become one if the most sod after cards in the sports market. It's appeal most likely will be to the wealthy who want to have it as a social statis item or a conversation piece!

Take a look at the coin market and the 1913 Liberty nickel. Most likey case was a mint worker restruck 6 coins with the 1913 year on it right before they destroyed the die. He waited 7 years before showing up at a couple of coin shows to display them. Then he marketed them by advertising a high amount of money would be paid if anyone that could come up with one.

Here is aquick story on it.

http://coins.about.com/od/famousrare...913_Nickel.htm


I'm sure there are other examples where the hype and story has made an item get record setting prices everytime it comes to the market. I think another item is a rare art painting that the UCLA library has on display. It was originally done from a husband to mock the art community because his wife's work was not accepted. This man had never painted before and hetried to make it the ugliest painting ever seen... Samething played out over the years with that item.


My guess for the price of the now trimmed (industry known) T206 PSA Wagner card is over 5 million!!! It most likely will be in the same holder tooas the "new" owner can decide what to do.

I think it will increase the value of the card believe it or not. It's a scandal now and the card probably would have graded quite well anyway.

The bigger question is how PSA didn't know it was trimmed. Quite funny when comparing the "SGC scary needs to be brought up thread". PSA is not consistent nor is it not the best at grading cards. Unfortunately it's like Metallica vs Megadeth (yes I brought it there). While Metallica (PSA) sounds great it really isn't as good as Megadeth (SGC), it's all a popularity contest and total bs.

[ullmandds]

personally I'd like to know exactly how the grading of that wagner went down. i'd surmise all the major players were in a room together with some graders(I mean friends) all discussing the merits of the card and if there were a way to detect trim/alteration...prior to slabbing it and creating a hobby changing money making machine all founded on a lie!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

personally I'd like to know exactly how the grading of that wagner went down. i'd surmise all the major players were in a room together with some graders(I mean friends) all discussing the merits of the card and if there were a way to detect trim/alteration...prior to slabbing it and creating a hobby changing money making machine all founded on a lie!

I believe I have read that David Hall and Bill Hughes were there, and there may have been others. But it has been written about.

[bbcard1]

But what's the Cincinnati Wagner worth today?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I just saw your post Robert. I had to check the Pop report to verify for myself. I do remember seeing it before and there was an 8. I'm assuming it must have been changed. I find it hard to believe that PSA bought the card back to remove it from the population report. But I suppose according to their guarantee that's what they are supposed to do.

I just typed 00000001 into their cert verification link and it says it wasn't found in their database.

If it's out of the pop and the cert database it may well have been decommissioned.

[ullmandds]

well here's another crook's account of the history of the wagner.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=24080

[Sophiedog]

Maybe they took the Wagner down until the smoke clears

[CW]

That's a good theory, Charles.

At one time, the card was listed separately on the pop report as the "McNall/Gretzky" Wagner, but now it does appear to be removed.

[Sophiedog]

Thanks Chuck! I also remember the Wagner listed as Mcnall/Gretzky

[CW]

I was toying around with some ideas for a custom t-shirt for last year's national convention in Cleveland. I ultimately went with a design based on my avatar, but this was one I was contemplating and scrapped...

[Sophiedog]

Hey Chuck: That's a great shirt. The T206 collectors would go crazy for that one!

[ullmandds]

nice chuck...just title it mastro's barber shop...trim all 4 sides...and you're in business.

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Unfortunately it's like Metallica vs Megadeth (yes I brought it there). While Metallica (PSA) sounds great it really isn't as good as Megadeth (SGC), it's all a popularity contest and total bs.

Oh HELL Yeah! Finally someone said it. Megadeth is by far the better band (in any form) over Metallica as long as Dave is involved. Absolute top of the food chain, f***ing genius and more metal than anyone past, present or future. Oh, and Lemmy is right there too!

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by CW

I was toying around with some ideas for a custom t-shirt for last year's national convention in Cleveland. I ultimately went with a design based on my avatar, but this was one I was contemplating and scrapped...

Awesome!!! I want one!!! Print a few hundred and we can all wear them around at next years national!

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Awesome!!! I want one!!! Print a few hundred and we can all wear them around at next years national!

+1

[clydepepper]

I definitely would buy more than one!


GREAT IDEA !

Let's just hope that having 'PSA' on it would not cause legal grief.
.
.

[ullmandds]

i want one too...make mine xl!

[Rickyy]

It will be interesting if the current owner decides to sell it and it goes through a auction house how the slab will be presented. I assume the value could increase simply because of the publicity, it's still a valuable card no doubt. I'm interested in seeing what is going to happen to the slab and the grade and how it will be presented back to the hobby. Value aside this is the supposed flagship card (or one of them) of our hobby and of this particular grading company.

Ricky Y

[CW]

LOL! Well, if I get motivated over the next few days I'll see if I can create one on Zazzle and then everyone can order. Too funny...

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Awesome!!! I want one!!! Print a few hundred and we can all wear them around at next years national!

Agreed, assuming I can go to the national I would wear that shirt. I'll take one either way if you make them.

[mark evans]

My guess is that the Gretzky Wagner will begin to taper off in value, perhaps with its next sale. But, I've felt this way about vintage cards generally for some time due to aging baby boomers (like me) and possibly a general economic downturn [This is not intended as a political statement in any way, just a fearful concern.]. I suspect that the facts don't (yet) bear me out on this but don't follow auctions closely enough to know.

Can't help but weighing in on music reference. Just to show how musical taste is so subjective, and with all respect (seriously) to others, I've never been able to develop a taste for heavy metal (or rap for that matter). It seems to me that pop music, with some notable exceptions (Avett Brothers, Mumford & Sons), has been heading downhill since the 70s (Springsteen, Doobies, Elton, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Billy Joel, et al.). On the other hand, some music strikes me as timeless (Ahmad Jamal, Leadbelly, lots of other jazz and blues).
Never much cared for most classical music either although many folks I respect (including my wife) think most highly of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And the 70s were downhill compared to the 60s. That stuff you cite was mostly derivative.

[kevinlenane]

To me Mumford and Avett sound like copycat rock when I hear Fleet Foxes and Future Islands. It's all in the beholder and honestly I don't see vintage card prices drop until the expiration of the kids who collected in the late 80s and early 90s who are in their 30s now with buying power. I'm in that group and the fact that I can actually buy these vintage Wiliams Mantles etc after pouring over them in Becketts is truly awesome. I give it another 40 years or so until the kids who have grown into purchasing power age NEVER collected cards and never held a Beckett every month drooling over the 52 Mantle listing. Just my 2.

[Econteachert205]

As to the value of the Wagner, to me the history of the card means that it will exclude buyers who might otherwise buy a Wagner, as well as bring in buyers who would not normally bid. The question is do the bidders who abstain represent a greater opportunity for higher price discovery than those brought in by the story. I personally think the celebrity status will bring in more deep pockets for the card than ever before... That having been said, if it sells again and misses its previous sale price, look out below.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And the 70s were downhill compared to the 60s. That stuff you cite was mostly derivative.

I wouldn't argue with you, Peter. I didn't intend to cite the 70s as the pinnacle of pop music (perhaps poorly drafted), but rather its most recent notable period. But, again, this is very subjective stuff and I readily respect others who hear things differently.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I think it's been known for quite a while that he trimmed that card. I don't think it will have any impact on the value. Altered or not it's still the nicest example of the most valuable card in the hobby, by a wide margin. Way out of my league, but 5 mil sounds like a reasonable estimate to me.

No one in their right mind would ever remove it from it's current holder. The card doesn't bring any where close to 5 mil in a PSA authentic, altered holder.

This would be my vote as well. It is still overall the nicest example of one of the two most desirable cards on the planet (the other being the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth). The story behind it and its impact on hobby history may well only increase its value.

Highest regards,

Larry

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by mark evans

My guess is that the Gretzky Wagner will begin to taper off in value, perhaps with its next sale.

Mark is being kind. This T206 Wagner is now radioactive and will never sell for anything like the $2.8mm price that Ken Kendrick paid, at least not while all of us are above ground. You could buy a legit one for far less and not have to deal with the stink emanating from this card.

Thanks, Bill Mastro, for your large contribution in destroying the hobby.

Bill

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Oh HELL Yeah! Finally someone said it. Megadeth is by far the better band (in any form) over Metallica as long as Dave is involved. Absolute top of the food chain, f***ing genius and more metal than anyone past, present or future. Oh, and Lemmy is right there too!

Tony you redeemed yourself there. I was about to go crazy if you didn't mention Lemmy/Motorhead. Fav band of all time. Lemmy is god \m/\m/

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Mark is being kind. This T206 Wagner is now radioactive and will never sell for anything like the $2.8mm price that Ken Kendrick paid, at least not while all of us are above ground. You could buy a legit one for far less and not have to deal with the stink emanating from this card.

Thanks, Bill Mastro, for your large contribution in destroying the hobby.

Bill

I know it doesn't mean much because I don't have the money, but if I did I would bid 2.8 mil for this card in a heartbeat. I have to assume that there are at least two people with the funds who feel the same way. A PSA 3 just sold for 1.3, and I think that was before the buyer's premium. I would expect the PSA 5 to sell in the 2-2.8 range, and the 8 to go for more.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I know it doesn't mean much because I don't have the money, but if I did I would bid 2.8 mil for this card in a heartbeat. I have to assume that there are at least two people with the funds who feel the same way. A PSA 3 just sold for 1.3, and I think that was before the buyer's premium. I would expect the PSA 5 to sell in the 2-2.8 range, and the 8 to go for more.

I would agree with this. The card is in the hands of someone who is wealthy and will only sell for a profit. There are other wealthy people who would pay up to own this card.

Also, it may not be the nicest Wagner. I have heard that there is an ungraded one much nicer than the 5s and not trimmed.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I believe I have read that David Hall and Bill Hughes were there, and there may have been others. But it has been written about.

I posted back in 2012 about this, as David Hall talked about this at the PSA lunch at the National that year. Here are my posts from that time:

"At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date."

"Not sure if anything was recorded, but Hall was adamant that he examined te Wagner with a magnifying glass and stood by it, but if anything was proven otherwise and PSA had to compensate a buyer for any reason, that was part of their guarantee."

"Hall said Hughes told him that the quotes in the book and the newspaper articles were outright lies, and Hughes never said he knew the card was trimmed."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I would agree with this. The card is in the hands of someone who is wealthy and will only sell for a profit. There are other wealthy people who would pay up to own this card.

Also, it may not be the nicest Wagner. I have heard that there is an ungraded one much nicer than the 5s and not trimmed.

The HOF has one that is close to NM.

EDIT TO ADD By today's standards, perhaps not quite. In any event, I believe this is the one. All roads seem to lead to Bill.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I know it doesn't mean much because I don't have the money, but if I did I would bid 2.8 mil for this card in a heartbeat. I have to assume that there are at least two people with the funds who feel the same way. A PSA 3 just sold for 1.3, and I think that was before the buyer's premium. I would expect the PSA 5 to sell in the 2-2.8 range, and the 8 to go for more.

The card now has a permanently ugly legacy that can't be wished away. It's not an 8, it's a card that PSA was duped into grading an 8. I'm going to bet you'd find much better places to stash your $2.8mm.

Bill

[HRBAKER]

And, if it's trimmed 8's you're into you most likely find plenty of them for a lot less money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IF PSA hasn't made a deal with Kendrick, see the posts about it not appearing in the pop report or cert check, I agree with J.C. and others that it likely will go up. Trimmed or not is really beside the point given the card's unique notoriety.

[Brian Van Horn]

What I would be interested in would be finding what kind of a hit the collections such as Olbermann, Barkman and Masson took to their overall worth.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IF PSA hasn't made a deal with Kendrick, see the posts about it not appearing in the pop report or cert check, I agree with J.C. and others that it likely will go up. Trimmed or not is really beside the point given the card's unique notoriety.

The card is certainly notorious, that is unassailable. But, notoriety cuts both ways. I can't agree that the fact of its being trimmed is beside the point. To me (who has no serious money so take these views for what they're worth), much of the card's value pre-Mastro prosecution was the public perception that the card had survived for over 100 years in nearly pristine condition. Of course, it did but not having been issued in a pack and handled by folks through the years like the other Wagners. Instead, all now know that the card was preserved on a sheet until the 70s when Mastro and others realized they were sitting on a goldmine, so to speak. So, comparing it to other Wagner cards is really inapt. It truly is unique but, now that its notorious history is on the public record, I continue to believe its value will taper off over time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mastro confessed in 2013, or in any event it was made public then. There is nothing new this week.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by bcornell

The card now has a permanently ugly legacy that can't be wished away. It's not an 8, it's a card that PSA was duped into grading an 8. I'm going to bet you'd find much better places to stash your $2.8mm.

Bill

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens next time it goes up for sale, assuming it's still in the PSA 8 holder. I just think with the notoriety the card has, the fact that it was trimmed but still ended up in an 8 holder won't matter to some. I'm not saying it shouldn't matter, but I don't think it will. I would spend the money, if I had it, because I would believe that I could sell it for much more.

Let's hope someday my net worth is high enough that this is a real decision I have to make and not a hypothetical one.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Tony you redeemed yourself there. I was about to go crazy if you didn't mention Lemmy/Motorhead. Fav band of all time. Lemmy is god \m/\m/

The great thing about Lemmy is he sounded like he was 60 when he was 30 so you can still listen to him today and sounds the exact same as day 1.

And I too prefer Dave and the boys to James and his crew, but its like Filet Mignon and Prime Rib, either will do nicely. And Lemmy is a side order of a full rack of ribs.

[Rich Klein]

It's the most famous card in the hobby and still presents very well.

And still has the PSA 8 ID

So, even though we know it's trimmed, I would wager that the owner makes a profit when he sells.

I know many of us on this board would prefer to believe that now we know officially the card is trimmed, it is worthless.

Sorry, reality will go in the other direction.

Rich

[pherbener]

I agree!!

Megadeath >>>>>>>>>>>>>Metallica!!

SGC>>>>>>>>>>>PSA

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I think it will increase the value of the card believe it or not. It's a scandal now and the card probably would have graded quite well anyway.

The bigger question is how PSA didn't know it was trimmed. Quite funny when comparing the "SGC scary needs to be brought up thread". PSA is not consistent nor is it not the best at grading cards. Unfortunately it's like Metallica vs Megadeth (yes I brought it there). While Metallica (PSA) sounds great it really isn't as good as Megadeth (SGC), it's all a popularity contest and total bs.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

It's the most famous card in the hobby and still presents very well.

And still has the PSA 8 ID

So, even though we know it's trimmed, I would wager that the owner makes a profit when he sells.

I know many of us on this board would prefer to believe that now we know officially the card is trimmed, it is worthless.

Sorry, reality will go in the other direction.

Rich

You are correct. It's not like a normal card where you can buy a psa 8 not trimmed.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

It's the most famous card in the hobby and still presents very well.

And still has the PSA 8 ID

So, even though we know it's trimmed, I would wager that the owner makes a profit when he sells.

I know many of us on this board would prefer to believe that now we know officially the card is trimmed, it is worthless.

Sorry, reality will go in the other direction.

Rich

Just to clarify, I never suggested that the card is or should be 'worthless' but, allowing for dreaming, I would prefer to own a PSA 3 that showed well.