Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

[Goudey77]

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

[ullmandds]

While I am sure the video is interesting and I will get to it later I don’t have to watch it to agree with what you said here. I would be satisfied if the grading companies were to evolve, recognize and label cards as for what they are.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would presume an item designated Restored will always sell for considerably less than one deemed original, so there would be the same incentive to alter cards as before, no? Don't we already have something close anyhow with AUTH?

[Goudey77]

In the comic book world it’s fairly standard that restored label books sell for about 25%-50% of similar unrestored examples. It it varies depending on the rarity of the book.

I feel like the comic industry is a step ahead of cards. Really love the video I referenced as its very clear that a TPG could single handily change the problems we see today. We could learn a lot by opening up these doors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

In the comic book world it’s fairly standard that restored label books sell for about 25%-50% of similar unrestored examples. It it varies depending on the rarity of the book.

I feel like the comic industry is a step ahead of cards. Really love the video I referenced as its very clear that a TPG could single handily change the problems we see today. We could learn a lot by opening up these doors.

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing? No skilled card doctor is going to say oh please designate my card restored so it can be worth 25-50 percent.

[ullmandds]

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing?

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

I don't follow your logic at all. They sell for less only if they're caught. Your stated premise is that the problem we have now is TPGs aren't detecting alteration. So why wouldn't that continue if the result of getting them past TPGs is that they're worth more?

[Goudey77]

Based on how this conversation is going so far it puts us back on the question. What’s undetectable by TPG’s slide by as unaltered. That’s the reality we card collectors have to live with. Until TPG’s figure out a solution.

Watch the video and they speak on this subject of “tolerances” when it comes to things like cleaning or pressing.

Somehow CGC appears to have it figured out and is obviously more stringent on books than PSA is on cards.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

Yeah, Brent Mastro, would love to continue to mature his relationship Edward Scissorhands. He is full of S, I mean hot air. I have seen him blabber mouthing, but has not done 1 THING he said he would as of yet. He is an idiot, a picked scab, IMHO until he makes a move and it is made public.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing?

Nothing, absolutely nothing. Paid damage control maybe, I have no idea. Anybody else have a hobby that has nothing to do with baseball cards that we can use their standards to make criminal activity in our hobby seem OK?

Brent isn't trying to mature the hobby he is trying to cover his ass IMHO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let me understand this. Suppose I am a highly skilled card doctor making gobs of money getting many of my hatchet jobs past TPGs. Now, a market develops for restored cards (there sort of is one already, the AUTH, but never mind that). Restored cards sell for 50-75 percent less. I am going to stop being a card doctor and become a card restorer? Why?

Again, it's late, maybe I am missing it.

[benjulmag]

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

+1.

I remember the first time I saw a number grade for an autograph — it was on a Ty Cobb signed check in a PSA/DNA holder at the White Plains Show maybe 10 years ago. It had an outrageous price tag because it was a PSA 10. To this day, I have never paid for a TPG to “grade the autograph” because all I care about is authentication. I can make my own decisions about whether a signature is beautiful, crisp, and clean, but I like an independent opinion on authenticity.

[T206Collector]

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

I don't think people submit to SGC the high end modern cards where a lot of this is being outed. And I suspect that most card doctors want to get their cards into PSA slabs because for better or worse they sell for more.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

I also agree with this...OBJECTIVE INFO should be conveyed by an opinion on a card. The whole grading mentality and the registry have helped create the problems we have today.

Above all DISCLOSURE of whats been done to a card is PARAMOUNT.

[brad31]

A couple of thoughts on this:

1) To me this would embolden many more to trim cards. If there was a Trimmed 8 that sold for 50% of a regular 8 - then the card doctors can be more bold. The risk of trimming a 5 and it possibly being detected and going to an altered holder is a deterrent. It is possible to lose money if the TPG detects the alteration. Now it could be break even if detected and a huge gain if not detected.

2) Comic book grading has never made sense to me. While not a collector - what if my favorite art from the book were on page 5, 9 and 11 of a comic book. I am paying all this money and never even seeing those pages on my book. Are these books scanned and retained somewhere page by page so you can actually see what you are buying? Makes sense that they need to take more time and get it right because unlike with cards you cannot see the majority of it with your own eyes.

To me the TPGs need to find a way to examine the card edges better and finding ways to detect trimming. If that takes hiring more people and giving them more time it is their duty to do so. If some people turn these cards in and they actually honor their guarantee then hopefully they can use those cards to find a way to find and train on what they missed. Unfortunately I do not see this as what will happen.

My prediction is it goes the way of the comic book. Way easier to error on the side of caution when you grade the trimmed card. This way min size cards will get into trimmed holders - they tighten standards on size - change color labels so key cards have to be graded again into the new conserved and “original” holder. Collectors over time have to bite the bullet and pay thousands of dollars to get key cards into “original” holders with cards in the current red holder selling at a discount in the marketplace.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

Opaque slabs for trading cards would be the equivalent in our hobby and would allow Registry collectors to focus more clearly on the flip.

Therefore if you can't see it, the whole point of a trading card is defeated, no?

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

Is this Brent? I realize this is the internet, so I didn't hear you say it, but "can we do it constructively" probably isn't the best phrasing. Just saying...

This discussion has been going on for decades now? It isn't "new", it's just become more common in the recent weeks, and more public.

Originally Posted by Goudey77

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

Again, not new. These things have been going on for decades as well. Restored/altered cards were getting through the TPGs from the very beginning. The hobby isn't more vulnerable than any other time, again it's just become more public thanks to the internet and hobbyists pointing out all the parties involved and how they are/may be linked to each other.

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

Also, not new as it already exists (at least at PSA). There is a "Restored" label to go on flips.

Originally Posted by Goudey77

But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

Who in the art world is official standard setter of "restoration"?

I don't collect comics, but I am at least generally aware of CGC and their grading. I'm also pretty sure that they disclose a fair bit more any restoration/alteration work they see on the comics, no? It's frequently a list of those things, whereas in cards it's just the one word on the flip.

I'm also going to go on record as saying that cards and comics are NOT similar collectibles. Comics are multiple pages attached together in some manner, much thinner stock normally than cards, it's generally a more "elaborate" collectible than a single card that's a few inches each direction, and damage to inside pages affects the grade, not just the cover and the back.

One last item. This is off the CGC site, and it's identified as a "restoration" technique that would get called out on a slab. Maybe I misunderstood the video discussion, but certainly didn't sound to me like "cleaning" was something that was likely to get called out on a slab unless it "smelled" of something, in which case it became alteration.

Again, I don't think cards and comics are particularly similar, just simply pointing out that even with these "mature" markets and their definitions the card "leaders" aren't even being consistent with those. Who should we believe then?


CLEANED (lightened). An aqueous process to lighten the paper color or remove soluble acids, often using chemical oxidation, solvents, or water. This process is sometimes called cleaned and pressed or C&P. Common chemicals used to lighten paper include benzene, acetone, xylene, sodium hypochlorite, hydrogen peroxide, chloramine-T, chlorine dioxide, sodium borohydrate, etc.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by bounce

"can we do it constructively" probably isn't the best phrasing. Just saying...

This discussion has been going on for decades now? It isn't "new", it's just become more common in the recent weeks, and more public.

David sorry I'm going to make an example of your response.
Nothing in what you say is constructive or added value to this topic.
To throw your hands up and say it's been going on for decades and that TPG's cannot follow similar standards as other industries is just wrong.

You say it's been known for years, its been talked about for decades, its part of the hobby since the beginning, there are already "restored" flips available. So does the hobby keep going in the direction that it is?

The stubborn mentality that fears change will always fall behind.

As I said before similar parallels to the comic industry years ago about this subject. Now that CGC recognizes conservation/restoration fully and has their own "tenets" there is nothing taboo about the subject.

If CGC can do this then it would appear to be a less intrusive process for PSA or SGC to follow in analyzing a simple card that is not as "elaborate" as a comic book right?

The point of my thread is to call out what's been done by similar hobby grading methodologies where things like pressing, cleaning, color touch, identifying trim etc. are part of conservation or restoration.

Again if CGC can do it with books there is absolutely no reason PSA or SGC could not do it on a card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

David sorry I'm going to make an example of your response.
Nothing in what you say is constructive or added value to this topic.
To throw your hands up and say it's been going on for decades and that TPG's cannot follow similar standards as other industries is just wrong.

You say it's been known for years, its been talked about for decades, its part of the hobby since the beginning, there are already "restored" flips available. So does the hobby keep going in the direction that it is?

The stubborn mentality that fears change will always fall behind.

As I said before similar parallels to the comic industry years ago about this subject. Now that CGC recognizes conservation/restoration fully and has their own "tenets" there is nothing taboo about the subject.

If CGC can do this then it would appear to be a less intrusive process for PSA or SGC to follow in analyzing a simple card that is not as "elaborate" as a comic book right?

The point of my thread is to call out what's been done by similar hobby grading methodologies where things like pressing, cleaning, color touch, identifying trim etc. are part of conservation or restoration.

Again if CGC can do it with books there is absolutely no reason PSA or SGC could not do it on a card.

Whether they could or not, why should they? You haven't made that case at all IMO. Nor have you responded to the point that as long as there is a price differential there is a huge motive to alter to deceive.

PS I don't WANT a restored card. I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here do not WANT restored cards. You're way off base, as evidenced by the reception you're getting so far.

[drcy]

Real, useful conservation of trading cards, especially old ones, would involve them being deacidified by putting them in a solution. That's actually something good that could be done conservation-wise with fragile cards and photos, and could be something held up as reasonable standard practice. Conservation in the art world is done to preserve/protect the item for posterity.

I've never stated that restoration and conservation are bad. And grading card companies labelling this work (if they can identify it) seems perfectly reasonable philosophy. It should be done right now if it could. If that's what Goudey is talking about, I agree. But the key is any work on the card has to be disclosed.

"Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less."

I work in philosophy (logic), have a published peer-reviewed university philosophy textbook and am a lifetime member of the international philosophy society at Oxford, and I just have to note for the logic-record that that quoted line makes absolutely no sense. It makes anti-sense.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by drcy

Real, useful conservation of trading cards, especially old ones, would involve them being deacidified by putting them in a solution. That's actually something good that could be done conservation-wise, and might be wise for photos and other items.

I've never stated that restoration and conservation are bad. And grading card companies labelling this work (if they can identify it) seems perfectly reasonable philosophy. It should be done right now if it could. If that's what Goudey is talking about, I agree. But the key is any work on the card has to be disclosed.

"Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less."

I work in philosophy (logic), have a published peer-reviewed university philosophy textbook and am a lifetime member of the international philosophy society at Oxford, and I just have to note for the logic-record that that quoted line makes absolutely no sense. It makes anti-sense.

DRCY,
I do appreciate your comments so far. Very useful examples that you provided.
As for the comment about having no incentive for card doctors. If we keep it the way it is today the incentive to get a altered card past the TPG is profitable. If the TPG moves to a CGC model and can recognize restorations/conservations and place them in a separate "restored" label then the profit is marginal.

Bottom line though. TPG's in our card hobby need to step up their services.
Change is needed regardless.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whether they could or not, why should they? You haven't made that case at all IMO. Nor have you responded to the point that as long as there is a price differential there is a huge motive to alter to deceive.

PS I don't WANT a restored card. I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here do not WANT restored cards. You're way off base, as evidenced by the reception you're getting so far.

Simple response to your thoughts Peter. Stagnation. Enjoy your message board to continue venting while nothing changes and all we hear about are controversial topics.

At some point TPG's need to recognize restored cards as did CGC. This includes publishing guidelines for tolerances of conservation vs restoration. This is exactly what PWCC is trying to convey in their tenets. Else it will always be a taboo topic with hidden motives. I'll also refer back to my comment about TPG's needing to give more effort in distinguishing the two. Thus the idea of creating a "purple" label of their own like CGC does.

Most comic book collectors in the silver age and modern book era do not want "restored" purple label books. Most golden age collectors have no choice if they want to own a key book. But at least CGC openly recognizes the differences.

I provided ideas with examples from other TPG's from the comic industry.
I already have a profession so it is not my job to make the change. But I can certainly be an advocate for it.

I'm open ears to constructive ideas. Complaining and stagnation is not my idea of constructive.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC doesn't even understand what conservation is. They misuse the word throughout.

Call me a skeptic, but I'm not seeing anything necessary or positive in it. What we need, as I've said, is for TPGs to improve and for card doctors and their enablers to be prosecuted.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

At some point TPG's need to recognize restored cards as did CGC.

Martin - They already do, why do you keep saying this? PSA has multiple different options, including "restored" which they can use.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com



They also have published standards for grading, see this link.
https://www.psacard.com/Resources/gr...tandards#cards

They probably haven't really dealt with the definitions as well as they could, however:
N2 - Evidence of restoration - When a card's paper stock appears to have been built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.
N5 - Altered Stock - This includes, but is not limited to characteristics on the card that appear to show some form of alteration such as paper restoration, crease/wrinkle pressing or enhanced gloss.
N7 - Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.
AA - Authentic Altered - This means that while PSA is certifying that the item is genuine, due to the existence of alterations, the item cannot receive a numerical grade. The term altered may mean that the card shows evidence of one or more of the following: trimming, recoloring, restoration, and/or cleaning. Items receiving the "Authentic Altered" designation, in our opinion, are genuine with the presence of some type of alteration. This is done on a case-by-case basis only, and must be notated on the submission form at the time of submission.

As I've continued to state, just be consistent and use them.

For whatever reason, that Wagner got I believe the N2 - Restored. Why it's not AA - Authentic Altered I have no idea, considering it had recoloring, restoration and cleaning done to it. Are we to accept that because the card wasn't submitted on the form to be AA that's why I ended up in a N2? Or is it because "restored" just sounds better than "altered", especially when you're talking about a multi-hundred thousand $ card?

The 52 Mantle that's been discussed has clear evidence of at least being cleaned. There's speculation of other work to it as well, including trimming and recoloring, but I don't know that I have seen sufficient evidence to say exactly what that is - but the circumstantial evidence of something else besides cleaning being done to it is pretty compelling. Regardless, it got a 4.5 grade instead of say N7. Brent has brought up that he's never seen N7 used, I don't think I have either so seems he has a valid point on that. However, in hindsight, something was done to that card, it was cracked and resubbed, whether or not you can actually SEE evidence of something done to it in hand the pictures prove something was done. PSA should reslab this thing at a minimum, and Brent needs to stop pretending the pictures don't exist.


And finally, regarding making "examples"...I certainly don't FEEL like you made an example of me or any of my posts. As a matter of fact, I think you've added credence to much of what myself and others have pointed out, so thank you for that.

You and I do agree on a few things (like what the TPGs can and should do), on quite a number of others we don't. I think I've been pretty open and direct in expressing the basis upon which my disagreement is based. If you feel like that's not "constructive", so be it - I feel pretty good you're in the minority in that view.

Maybe I'm just not "mature" enough...fortunately I have the card hobby to fall back into.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whether they could or not, why should they? You haven't made that case at all IMO. Nor have you responded to the point that as long as there is a price differential there is a huge motive to alter to deceive.

PS I don't WANT a restored card. I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here do not WANT restored cards. You're way off base, as evidenced by the reception you're getting so far.

He does bring up some tough questions though.

While I don't "want" a restored card, I have a very wide range of what I think is "acceptable" as far as condition goes. Much of that to me is related to the price.*
I have cards that I know are altered, as well as some pretty nice originals, and some real beaters.
I think if someone had for instance a green Cobb that had been a total wreck but had borders added and some scuffs etc fixed, and it was cheap enough, I might be interested. It would have to be way less than even an original beater.

I can also see someone wanting a restored card to display with another item, like while framing a jersey or autograph.

Realistically, I think we have to acknowledge that alterations, either fraudulent or well meant will always happen. People colored the edges of 71T when commons were going for a few cents each. (Badly, but still... )

If the grading companies got much better at catching it, and conveyed the alteration in any degree of detail, I think that's a positive step.

Our hobby does need to do some growing up. No other major hobby I can think of (Maybe comics? ) gets by without some national organization that supposedly has some sway over dealers and ethics and what is/is not acceptable. If we don't have one, dealers who think they're big enough will define that themselves.

*In 1978 I found half of a card I needed in the street on my way home. I kept it in my collection for about 2 years before I happened across a complete one. At the time I could have replaced it for 5 cents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

He does bring up some tough questions though.

While I don't "want" a restored card, I have a very wide range of what I think is "acceptable" as far as condition goes. Much of that to me is related to the price.*
I have cards that I know are altered, as well as some pretty nice originals, and some real beaters.
I think if someone had for instance a green Cobb that had been a total wreck but had borders added and some scuffs etc fixed, and it was cheap enough, I might be interested. It would have to be way less than even an original beater.

I can also see someone wanting a restored card to display with another item, like while framing a jersey or autograph.

Realistically, I think we have to acknowledge that alterations, either fraudulent or well meant will always happen. People colored the edges of 71T when commons were going for a few cents each. (Badly, but still... )

If the grading companies got much better at catching it, and conveyed the alteration in any degree of detail, I think that's a positive step.

Our hobby does need to do some growing up. No other major hobby I can think of (Maybe comics? ) gets by without some national organization that supposedly has some sway over dealers and ethics and what is/is not acceptable. If we don't have one, dealers who think they're big enough will define that themselves.

*In 1978 I found half of a card I needed in the street on my way home. I kept it in my collection for about 2 years before I happened across a complete one. At the time I could have replaced it for 5 cents.

I have no issue with grading companies getting better. That would be huge. And yes, some self-regulation would be great too. I do have an issue with changing the rules of the game to somehow legitimize a world of fraud. Particularly considering the source, and I don't mean Martin.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

David sorry I'm going to make an example of your response.
Nothing in what you say is constructive or added value to this topic.
To throw your hands up and say it's been going on for decades and that TPG's cannot follow similar standards as other industries is just wrong.

You say it's been known for years, its been talked about for decades, its part of the hobby since the beginning, there are already "restored" flips available. So does the hobby keep going in the direction that it is?

The stubborn mentality that fears change will always fall behind.

As I said before similar parallels to the comic industry years ago about this subject. Now that CGC recognizes conservation/restoration fully and has their own "tenets" there is nothing taboo about the subject.

If CGC can do this then it would appear to be a less intrusive process for PSA or SGC to follow in analyzing a simple card that is not as "elaborate" as a comic book right?

The point of my thread is to call out what's been done by similar hobby grading methodologies where things like pressing, cleaning, color touch, identifying trim etc. are part of conservation or restoration.

Again if CGC can do it with books there is absolutely no reason PSA or SGC could not do it on a card.

Martin, I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company. I have never in my life seen someone on a message board attempting to defend a business/individual with the vigor and determination that you are for PWCC. Just tell us the truth, what is your deal?

I have largely stayed out of this discussion as it all makes me sick. S*** has been going on in this hobby for decades and it all sucks. The spin that Brent is attempting right now is utterly ridiculous... if he didn’t know what was going on to some degree or another he was voluntarily living in ignorance. That being said PSA/BGS also are at fault for their inability to detect some of the most obviously trimmed vintage cards I have ever seen.

The hobby has determined (long before Brent/Betsy/Martin ever even thought about it) what is and isn’t okay. Yes there is some gray area as to what the hard line in the sand is but there are many things that are now and have always been not okay (and everyone mentioned in this and the other threads know what those are despite the spin they are trying to put forth). Everyone involved bears responsibility for the current situation despite what Martin would have us believe...

-PSA/BGS sucks at detecting the altered cards that have been submitted. They bear responsibility for that fact.
-PWCC (including all involved in that entity) suck at detecting the obvious shenanigans going on with their auctions (that or they are willfully involved, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt here). They bear responsibility for this, what they have and are doing IS NOT ENOUGH! Their attempts to reshape the narrative, redefine hobby standards, claim ignorance are comical to watch.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Martin, I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company. I have never in my life seen someone on a message board attempting to defend a business/individual with the vigor and determination that you are for PWCC. Just tell us the truth, what is your deal?

Rhett,

I have no association with PWCC. I have been a customer of theirs since the "pre war card collector" days. Yes I have had thoughts about reaching out to them as an advocate for change. I am from the same area as their offices but that's just coincidence.

I'm here to challenge the nay sayers. Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Rhett,

I have no association with PWCC. I have been a customer of theirs since the "pre war card collector" days. Yes I have had thoughts about reaching out to them as an advocate for change. I am from the same area as their offices but that's just coincidence.

I'm here to challenge the nay sayers. Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

Explain to me please why, if there is a large price gap between original and restored, there would not continue to be a huge incentive to alter cards to try to get the original designation as opposed to the restored one. I'm listening.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Rhett,

I have no association with PWCC. I have been a customer of theirs since the "pre war card collector" days. Yes I have had thoughts about reaching out to them as an advocate for change. I am from the same area as their offices but that's just coincidence.

I'm here to challenge the nay sayers. Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

Why then do you seemingly not hold PWCC responsible in any way. Every post you have made has defended them either directly or indirectly and then proceed to deflect all responsibility to the TPG industry? You understand that they can both suck at their jobs simultaneously, right?

I understand the sentiment behind your posts but they seem to be obviously thinly veiled defenses of PWCC.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Rhett,

Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

Unless I am missing something most of this information has pretty recently come to light so I think we are jumping the gun concluding that we are “doing nothing” because only time will tell if nothing is done. IMO bringing up all this information is the opposite of “doing nothing” and the only one that seems to have a problem with all these revelations is PWCC and (inexplicably) you. You seem to want to redirect the narrative to a similar point but not really what we are all talking about right now. This conversation is a good one but probably not one that should be initiated by the biggest PWCC apologist in the known universe.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Martin, I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company. I have never in my life seen someone on a message board attempting to defend a business/individual with the vigor and determination that you are for PWCC. Just tell us the truth, what is your deal.

You didn't notice "Pacific Northwest" in his personal details?


It a slow day here on Oswego Lake....

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You didn't notice "Pacific Northwest" in his personal details?


It a slow day here on Oswego Lake....

LOL, I certainly noticed that the first time I saw his post, I just want him to be honest.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You didn't notice "Pacific Northwest" in his personal details?


It a slow day here on Oswego Lake....

That's Lake Oswego Ted. You get the purple label for that one.

[topcat61]

I have no problem with a restored card, but there's a gray line that goes with such a card. Normally this is done to a card that is exceedingly rare and expensive. These cards should always have a flip saying so by the graders, otherwise, it can lead to potential fraud.

Consumers have the right to know if this is done and act accordingly to that information, and as a side, Auction Houses and grading companies go through way too many cards not to know what to look for when inspecting a card so they can no longer pull the old dummy routine when confronted.

What I got out of the PWCC interview a lawyer would have an easy time breaking down piece by piece. Honestly, I was annoyed because for one thing, there are a lot of really smart people who do understand the distinctions between restoration and doctoring and there are clear set of standards already set in place so there isnt going to be any reinventing the wheel by PWCC.

The other thing is why is this guy telling the Hobby that it needs to grow up and mature? While I agree that the more knowledge you have the better off you'll be, but this is up to the individual whether or not he or she have the time and resources to do so.

What it sounds like is that this guy Brent is telling us that "we're a business, and therefore don't have the time or resources necessary to make sure what we're selling is on the level. Just because you're a business dosent mean that you throw your ethics out the window. When you get busted, own up to it and make the necessary precautions to make sure you dont do it again and learn from your mistakes. Finally, "before and after photos" are proof and can be submitted as evidence in a court, same with emails and recordings such as the one of PWCC attempting to explain why altered cards wont be mentioned as such prior to auction.

[drcy]

None of the PWCC examples I have seen are examples of restoration or conservation. They are examples of cards being altered to scam collectors out of their money. Well, more than half of the cards have been trimmed.