Altered cards...just an opinion

[Stonepony]

Card alterations, whether as subtle as a good water soaking, or as aggressive as a professional repair, is really a thought provoking topic. We all have out tolerances and opinions - which sometimes are amusingly snobbish. Let me first say that I in no way condone any form of deceit in the hobby. Nor have I ever altered a card. I have sold altered cards, both slabbed and raw with full disclosure (examples being some Drake's which a TPG - and I agreed- determined had some edge touches). The problem is I likely own, or have sold cards that have been altered. Altered cards get by my eyes, your eyes and TPG ( perhaps frequently). So when we say altered cards are " worthless" and " I would never buy an altered card"...I have to smile. Really???. Don't feel bad but you probably have. Bill Mastro said ( I paraphrase) " that 90% of high grade vintage cards out there are altered". Now while i have no basis for believing a single word uttered by Mr. Mastro, I also have no reason to doubt his authority and experience with card and memorabilia alterations.
For those of us with high grade, unslabbed cards...are they suddenly " worthless' if myself, your neighbor or a TPG believes them trimmed by a hair? What if a TPG thinks they're fine but your highly respected hobby pal thinks there's a problem?
I have a M116 Mathewson that GIA graded as a 5. I cracked it and sent to PSA who sent it back as trimmed. SGC got their crack at it and gave it a 5. What do I have here... a worthless card or a $1000 card. Often there is a fine line between an altered card and a card that passes detection...so Im not going to bastardize all altered cards.
My point is it's very likely you and I have altered cards that have passed either your assessment or a TPGs. There are opinions as to the condition of cards and often these opinions differ. Which opinion counts...yours, TPG1,TPG2,TPG3? We likely have many undetected,altered cards in our collections. To completely dismiss "altered" cards as junk is somewhat harsh because your collection may very well be full of them and I doubt your love for them would wane if someone would give you that opinion. I don't currently have any cards slabbed as altered but I'm looking for them. Personally, some cards are WAY out of my price range so i would much rather have a great looking " altered" card than a horrific "poor" ( or none at all). I don't want a card thats been completely rebuilt, but if a hair trim or corner touch brings a whale into my price range- I think I'll go for it.
The 51 Mantle in Goodwin was gorgeous and it doesn't surprise me it brought a good price. Yes, the description should have been better- no doubt

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

[KCRfan1]

It comes down to what the alteration is for me. If I know a card is trimmed, I will most likely pass. Other than that, an alteration doesn't bother me.

[Rookiemonster]

If I found out a card I have was altered I would be bummed out for sure .
types of altering I don't like is trimming and if the card is written on . I don't like miscut cards just as much .

I don't mind pin holes at all . I or if a corner was rebuilt very well .

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

i feel similarly...although many of your points are valid. I have sent cards in to be graded that came back altered...I got rid of them only to see them slabbed later. It is somewhat of a psychological mindf$ck for me...if that makes sense????


I have never been a high grade collector...so in that regard i do not think I have altered cards in my collection...but who knows???

Obviously trimmed cards will never find their way into my collection...but "Scraps" with crazy miscuts...that's ok!!!!! Re-colored cards and things like added corners really piss me off!!!!! Undetectable removals...I have no problem with!!!

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

Multiple Choice

A). Review your notes from that ethics class in law school.

B). Deny, deny, deny!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Multiple Choice

A). Review your notes from that ethics class in law school.

B). Deny, deny, deny!

I skipped legal ethics.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

I highly doubt any seller would disclose this, although it would be nice to know. Has anyone ever seen a listing that mentioned a card was previously in an altered holder, or even that the grade was bumped from a lower one? I think the only way a buyer would be given this information is in a private transaction between friends, or somewhere like net54. And even then it would be unlikely.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I highly doubt any seller would disclose this, although it would be nice to know. Has anyone ever seen a listing that mentioned a card was previously in an altered holder, or even that the grade was bumped from a lower one? I think the only way a buyer would be given this information is in a private transaction between friends, or somewhere like net54. And even then it would be unlikely.

I agree, it doesn't happen, but the question I meant to ask is, am I ethically obligated to disclose? Is it material?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree, it doesn't happen, but the question I meant to ask is, am I ethically obligated to disclose? Is it material?

I don't think you are obligated to give a pedigree of a card in a TPG holder. IF asked then just tell the truth, whatever it may be. But obligated, I don't think so. That's my opinion....

If my PSA 7 Young was in a SGC AUT holder before then so be it (I don't think it was but just sayin')....it looks great to me. I'm sure if it's ever sold or traded it will be in the holder it's in...

[Iwantmorecards77]

I once purchased an ungraded T213 Cobb Red Portrait from a major auctioneer. No mention of any alterations and it was a great looking card. While I would always only purchase major cards in SGC or PSA holders, I decided to go for it. Being relatively new to the vintage hobby at the time, it was a rookie mistake. Ended up losing almost $1,000 in the end - a tough pill to swallow.

PSA claimed it was altered and sent it back. I tried SGC and they called me to tell me it was trimmed and pressed. I decided to have it placed in an "A" holder.

I contacted the auctioneer. He claimed the auction does not accept 3rd party opinions and that it was past the limit for "returns." I pointed out other lots in the auction that they claimed ungraded cards to be altered - but not the lot I purchased. The only thing they could do for me was to send it back so they could put it in next year's auction, but it would be up to me to disclose the alterations. I declined the "offer."

I ended up selling it on eBay for less than half of what I paid for it - and disclosed all info on how I purchased it, what the auctioneer claimed, and the alterations SGC claimed it to have. It was quite the long item description. Haha

I was so frustrated with the situation, I just wanted to get rid of it. I believe a board member purchased it.

I know PSA and SGC make mistakes on cards that obtain numerical grades. They're humans and we all make mistakes, but I feel more comfortable purchasing cards in their holders (with numerical grades.) The one time I buy a major card raw - and it blows up in my face. Again - rookie mistake and a lesson learned.

Todd Mancuso

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I KNEW a card of mine was altered, I would immediately consider it junk, it would completely change my view of it. In fact I have had cards that I at first thought were good and then started to worry about -- gone.

Your example is interesting though. Suppose one TPG rejects my card as altered and the second one slabs it. When I sell it should I disclose the initial rejection?

I have a couple cards that I got graded and came back altered. Something about that word on the slab really annoys me.

Unfortunately one of the cards was bought by a member here without disclosing his knowledge of it being altered. Of course it's perfectly acceptable to believe that he may not have known. I obviously didn't and still really can't tell how it is only PSA knows!

If people would like I can find the card and post a pic later when I get home seeing as it goes with the subject of the thread.

[pencil1974]

I don't know I don't mind altered cards as long as you know they are altered. I have one that the seller didn't know if it was altered or not. I assumed it was so I also paid an "altered" card price versus what it would cost if not. I just liked the eye appeal and for what its worth it does measure correct.

But this is just my opinion though.

[Stonepony]

Right on, Brad! That's a beautiful card

[pencil1974]

Thanks! I don't know if it is altered or not but it makes no difference to me, just love the card.