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#1
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hypothetical major problem with well respected board member
what would you do?
suppose you and a well respected member of this board reach an agreement where 1 person would not bid on an item in a major auction and the other person would win the item and agree to sell you the doubles...you were willing to go upto 20000 if you were bidding...you dont bid and the item goes to the person you made the agreement with for 10000 which you consider a "steal" the party who won the auction "a major contributor to this board and highly respected" has apparently decided not to sell you the doubles...3 months has passed and nothing but excuses and now no further communication |
#2
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I am completely inexperienced with major auctions and big purchases, but the agreement itself seems contrary to fair play. Is this a standard practice? It feels like a form of collusion.
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Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
#3
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Curious is this is hypothetical or "hypothetical". I've never come up with an agreement with someone to buy together except with close personal friends and never at this high of a level.
Seems like it isn't an actual legal contract unless it was written down and signed. For that amount of money the question arises if legal action is needed or chalk it up to finding out someone's true character and tough lesson learned. Tough call either way. Drew
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Drew |
#4
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Sorry, my friend. Looks like you got snookered. Your competition got you to stay out of the auction so he could steal it for a song, and burned you in your side deal in the process. Lesson learned.
If I were you, I would likely not have any further dealings with that board member. Good Rule of Thumb: Assume that all baseball card collectors are pirates and thieves who would steal from their own mothers (---who would definitely steal valuable collections from widows for pennies on the dollar). Go into all of your transactions with this assumption, and you will likely never be taken advantage of in any of your dealings. Now, I know such an approach is an overly cynical one. However, when it comes to dealing with people with whom you have no personal relationship, it is an approach that will ensure that you exercise the appropriate level of caution. It's every man for himself out there. If you happen to come across a fellow collector with integrity, consider yourself fortunate. There are certainly plenty of them out there. But I would never make such an assumption about anyone, regardless of their reputation on this or any other board. Remember what Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify."
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CASSIDYS SPORTSCARDS - Vintage Baseball Cards 1909 - 1976 https://www.ebluejay.com/store/CASSIDYS_SPORTSCARDS Last edited by BlueDevil89; 01-25-2015 at 10:45 AM. |
#5
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Good luck enforcing an illegal contract.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#6
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Someone stole my weed, I'm calling the cops.
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Collecting Pre-1920 HOF Postcards (single subject, not team postcards) @TreyCumby |
#7
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To follow-up on what David (Cycleback) and Adam had to say, collusion doesn't always cause the final bid to be lower;e.g-I agreed to go in with another board member on a fairly expensive large lot of cards. I ran the bidding end of things and bid it up fairly high. When it got to the point where it was too high for me, I stepped away. The take-home message is that I would not have bid at all if not for the other forum member agreeing to go in with me on the lot, so my bidding stimulated activity and possibly caused the lot to sell for more than if we had not partnered up. Sometimes neither of the 'colluders' would bid unless they had an agreement, so in those instances the final price has to be either the same or higher.
This case (if the $20K estimate is correct) might have yielded opposite results, but only because the pool of prospective bidders was much smaller. I don't know about outing the other guy - there are two sides to every story, and getting into a massive pissing match is never pleasant for anyone but the railbirds.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+ |
#8
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Nothing illegal about the above mentioned agreement.
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Tackling the Monster T206 = 213/524 HOFs = 13/76 SLers = 33/48 Horizontals = 6/6 ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage. |
#9
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#10
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Yikes
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I'm with Chris here AND have been where you are standing !!
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Adam Goldenberg |
#11
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__________________
The speed of light is faster that the speed of sound that is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. Trying is the first step towards failing, and failing is the first step towards success! Life's lessons cost money Some lessons cost a lot.. |
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Obviously there was no contract, no legal grounds, but the person has shown their true colors.
I would not make personal comments or use adjectives to describe the person, but if someone were to enter into a verbal agreement, then not follow through, they have obvious issues with a lack of morals and values. I would post exact details and give the name of the member. Others should be aware of this persons unwillingness to honor their word. I think sharing our experiences in a thoughtful and factual manner is helpful and constructive. People don't hesitate to share when they had a good experience. |
#13
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right ..you took a chance and it not work out...who knows if you would of ponyed up enough money if bidding on the lot
if you really wanted the lot you buy it then sell the cards to the guy that wanted it...sometimes people will even say 'if you buy the lot I will agree to buy x and y cards' from you....then you buy the lot..and then they don't want to pay......so always assume you will have to sell at market value if the guy doesn't come through..and if comes through ..then great..its a fun experience ..if not ..who cares.. heck just on one on one deals..people negotiate for weeks..then they come to a price..then all of the sudden the buyer doesn't pay.......so the more exotic buy and sells are even more hard.. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 01-25-2015 at 01:52 PM. |
#14
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Quote:
I see threads on the board quite often such as, "Looking for a partner on auction lot XX" and that's basically what you two were - partners in the auction. It doesn't matter who the bidder was or who paid for the auction, you were partners and he didn't hold up his end of the agreement. Obviously as others have said, there's nothing you can legally do about it, but he definitely needs to be outed as someone I wouldn't want to do business with. Please out this board member. |
#15
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I have talked with other members about possibly splitting an auction lot. There doesn't seem anything sinister in this. If it were a real auction and I was next to a friend who said I will bid on this and we can split the cost and cards, I would feel that is totally appropriate. As previously stated, if this story is true, the person who did this to you is lacking in my mind in ethics.
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#16
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I agree with this^ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
T206's Graded low-mid 219/520 T201's SGC/PSA 2-5 50/50 T202's SGC/PSA 2-5 10/132 1938 Goudey Graded VG range 37/48 |
#17
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Tough to know both sides of the story though...the guy can get 'outed' but what if the the guy that bought the lot says 'I was supposed to be paid x amount..and he wouldn't pay that' so not theres a big misunderstanding on what was said ...that's the problem with verbal deals......just could be 2 sides of the story..is all I am saying |
#18
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#19
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Now, I have had people get locked out on a lot that I threw an early bid in on, that then wanted to go in half and we partnered up that way. But in the OP's instance, they conspired to "bid rig", win the item for a song, therefore ripping the consignor off, and now the silent partner is getting the shaft. I am sorry, but I can't warrant any sympathy here. |
#20
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Makes more sense to me now. I'd be miffed too.
__________________
Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
#21
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I've had it happen, but also have had the opposite occur. I asked a member about an auction, and he suggested if I didn't bid him up, he would give me the two cards I wanted FREE of charge. He won, and held up his end of the bargain.
I've also had former friends and board members who were emailing eBay sellers after auctions ended and offering a higher price on items I won! Consider yourself lucky you really are not financially hurt. He could have taken your funds, and not delivered the card. A thief is a thief no matter how big or little the sum is.
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors Last edited by Republicaninmass; 01-25-2015 at 02:47 PM. |
#22
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I think these kinds of deals happen very often. Even for items on the BST section here. I know I have done several deals like the one described with 0 problems with 2 members on here. |
#23
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+1
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#24
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Larry sorry to hear of your situation. I think it would benefit everyone on the forum if we all knew who this person is. However, if I were in your shoes, I would think twice about outing this person if all I had was a verbal agreement, history tells that will just break down into a he-said / he-said argument and eventually the triple-dog-dare of the forum, threatened legal action. If you have emails, PM's or other proof, I would let it fly.
BTW - this might get better response on the mail board instead of the BST.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Chesboro41, jimivintage, Bocabirdman, marcdelpercio, Jollyelm, Smanzari, asoriano, pclpads, joem36, nolemmings, t206blogcom, Northviewcats, Xplainer, Kickstand19, GrayGhost, btcarfango, Brian Van Horn, USMC09, G36, scotgreb, tere1071, kurri17, wrm, David James, tjenkins, SteveWhite, OhioCard Collector, sysks22, ejstel. Marty Last edited by brob28; 01-25-2015 at 04:00 PM. |
#25
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Auction
Post who it is.
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#26
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Agree it is BS
I think that there should be some ethics involved in deals. I had made hundreds of trades with people in my groups through the mail and I have been very happy with the deals...
I do think that member should be outed so another member is not suckered into a similar situation. I would never be involved in a deal with that level of money, but there are obviously guys on this forum that do have that type of funds and hopefully they can be made aware... Sorry for your troubles, at least no money was exchanged...
__________________
Always ready to do some old fashioned trading!!! Send me a message if you want to get a trade going. Currently working on: 53 Topps, 61 Topps, 52-55 Redman, 47-66 Exhibits, 53 Bowman color, 52 Topps, 51-55 Bowman, 64 Topps Stand Ups My trading page: http://natesbaseballcardtradingco.weebly.com |
#27
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My first read was that the agreement was unethical based on the harm to the seller. However, if I understand the further comments, it looks more like going halfsies together on a lot that had some cards each partner wanted. That doesn't feel wrong to me. Still, more detail and more knowledge about the rules and norms of auctions could change my mind again.
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Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
#28
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#29
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Wouldn't an agreement not to bid (because you were supposed to pick up the doubles) be like "partnering" in the auction? I see people posting that they'd like to "partner" up on a lot. What's the difference here>
Wouldn't the person that won the lot (and was supposed to sell the dupes) be stiffing the guy that "parnered up" in the auction? Am I missing something here?
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#30
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I can't get past the $20,000.00. Or is that hypothetical too.
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#31
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Is reverse shill bidding a real thing? Never heard of that before. Anyway, I don't think "reverse shill bidding" is any sort of offense. One person chooses not to bid on an item no matter what their intentions are afterwards...nothing stands out as a violation to me. I may be wrong, but I doubt this exact thing doesn't happen too often. I would think, like stated above, that teaming up on an auction is more common...which of course is fine.
__________________
T206's Graded low-mid 219/520 T201's SGC/PSA 2-5 50/50 T202's SGC/PSA 2-5 10/132 1938 Goudey Graded VG range 37/48 |
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What bothers me more is that the OP seems to be protecting the other party...which to me seems worse than actually backing out of a deal somehow. Why? Because, the OP knows not to deal with this person anymore and the rest of us have to take our chances we will not get burned by that person. This, of course, is assuming everything you said is correct.
Just my two cents... Joshua |
#33
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#34
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#35
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I've dealt w/the OP a number of times and always satisfactorily. I don't think he would just invent this wholecloth; he may not want to name names this time for some reason.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
#36
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hypo
im not outing the other member because he contributes immensely to this board with his knowledge about certain areas of collecting....the likelihood of him ever having dealings with board members is virtually zero...he does not sell anything and what he buys are usually exceedingly rare cards that only a handful of people collect...i am not looking for a back and forth...this was simply..he needs 12 of the 19 in a lot and i would take the 7 doubles provided the lot didnt go over 20000...it went for 10000....he informed me he was out of the country the 1st month...the 2nd month he was visiting his children grandchildren etc the 3rd month ive gotten no response....all the years on the board we've exchanged information many many times...this lot came up for auction and i knew he would bid on it and knew there would be doubles
so we made this deal....like i said while the cards are rare...they are just pieces of cardboard...was just asking what board members thoughts on sharing a lot were and if theyve had any similar experience |
#37
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what would you do?
So is your mind made up? -------------end of thread--------------?
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#38
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I think his mind was made up before he even started this thread. He asks us what we would do, and many of us told him to divulge the name of the member, but he chooses to do otherwise. I still don't understand the purpose of the thread. What a waste of time!
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#39
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Well back to selling on the BST!
Leon thanks for moving this thread even when it first came on it had no business on the BST. I did give my 2 cents early on but got some change back! And Larry remember spend your own money that way you have no one to blame but yourself if the deal goes sour!
__________________
The speed of light is faster that the speed of sound that is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. Trying is the first step towards failing, and failing is the first step towards success! Life's lessons cost money Some lessons cost a lot.. |
#40
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Maybe I missed it somewhere above but, what cards were they?
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#41
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The appearance now is that your being a nice guy to someone that potentially screwed you out of thousands of dollars OR that there really wasn't much of an agreement between the two of you to begin with. It'd be interesting if the person that you said screwed you responded to this post with a completely different story.
__________________
fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#42
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These cards weren't 'worth' $20000.
They were worth what they sold for - $10000. If only one other bidder believes an item is worth double what it sells for in the majority, how is it 'worth' the higher number. At the higher number, the sale merely represents an overwhelming desire to own the item beyond logic and likely recompense, and clearly evidences over estimating the items worth. Should the item be available for sale again, and the one other bidder who is willing to bid highly has found his itch scratched and is no longer looking.....the number at which most see value is the true worth of the item. Everything else is sheer pride of ownership in its many guises. Oh, and the guy who dudded you is a cad, as Adam pointed out in an earlier post. Last edited by 68Hawk; 01-26-2015 at 01:35 PM. |
#43
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Without commenting as to the specifics of the deal in question, here's how I feel. All you truly have in this world is your word. You are either an honorable man, or you are not. And it is in moments like these where a person's true character is shown. And to me, nothing I could ever buy, no matter how valuable, or rare, or how much I wanted it, would be worth sacrificing my integrity.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#44
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I'm surprised the obvious answer hasn't been suggested:
Pistols at 40 paces. And if you're a good shot ... a great collection full of rare wonders will be on the market. |
#45
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Sorry, but I disagree with the comments about bid rigging, reverse shilling, collusion, etc. I don't think these terms apply at all to this discussion. If the 2 bidders in this discussion were the only 2 bidders then all of those descriptions might apply. However, as I read the OP's first post, he said that 2 people agreed not to compete against each other in an auction that presumably could have had many more potential bidders. They did not control the rest of the bidders so there was not guarantee that their partnership would be successful. Just my 2¢.
Jeff |
#46
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what'd I do? I did NOTHING wrong I say...NOTHING!!!!!!!
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#47
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#48
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Quote:
http://youtu.be/SNbup9-yj7c
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
#49
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#50
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Here is an extreme example of a 53 card lot that went for ~12K in an REA auction: Link, and then a single card out of that lot (the M101-6 Cobb) went for nearly 20K by itself: Link. There's no picture of the card in the Goodwin auction, but it was the same card as this was discussed as it went down here: Link. Again, this is an extreme example of a lot that obviously went under the radar, but it's fairly common where if you buy large lots, you can sell the cards individually and do quite well. |
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