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#1
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T206 Lionel Carter vs. Harris Collection
I am trying to figure out why some people criticize certain collectors (Harris, with PSA for example), some cards probably questionable, but yet there is no criticism towards this collector (Carter) with SGC to be found anywhere on this board, (alot of cards questionable). Is it really that much PSA vs. SGC? Is Lionel Carter that reputable a guy and not Harris? I have a couple of T206s from his collection that are ridiculous, grade wise. Why no criticism his way? Just curious....
Last edited by CMIZ5290; 11-11-2013 at 05:47 PM. |
#2
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There is a large disparity in the history of the cards of the two esteemed collectors. One collected/trade/bought cards in an era when the cards were sometimes cut down to fit pages. The other bought cards when they were trimmed to deceive.
The former are graded as such, the later not so much. Pretty much sums it up. |
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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Agreed. If the gypsies or Doug Allen had a hold on any Carter card, there's a reason to at least be concerned.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
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Regarding the Harris Collection, I read recently in one of the articles about Mastro's legal proceedings, that the T206s in the Harris Collection supposedly have a close connection with the "infamous" Wagner.
Steve |
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Steve- could you share that article? Thanks alot...
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
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Unfortunately, yes. And I have no axe to grind on this one; while I represent Dave Forman, I have thousands of costly PSA graded cards. The Harris cards are often dismissed as trimmed upon a two second glance from 50 feet away. And the graders had to see this just as clearly as we all have on this board.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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That article also mentions Brent 's recent Ruth pickup...I recall the Goudey's being mentioned prior as suspect.
Hmmmm....what's going on with this "little" hobby of ours
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T206 gallery |
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Lolol
"Sources indicate that a class-action lawsuit is in the works against Kendrick and the Hall of Fame on behalf of the 500,000+ paid visitors to the museum who viewed the Wagner card without any disclaimer about the card’s dubious past and the strong suspicion it had been altered."
Maybe they can get Kevin Q's help with that one.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#14
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Money is a big incentive, as are sexual favors.
Last edited by Cardboard Junkie; 11-11-2013 at 06:47 PM. Reason: grammar |
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+1....
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carter
I have at least a baker's dozen or so of Lionel Carter Collection cards and
no Harris. Several years ago, before the death of Mr. Carter, we had quite a few threads dealing with our deepest respect for this fine gentleman. I bought and continue to buy cards from his collection with no concern for what the holders may or may not be. Jeff L's keen Emory eye for these things continues! all the best, barry |
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carter
I did not think any disrespect was intentional,kevin.
thank you for your kind response. I remember these old times on the board before and during the period of the theft of some of Mr. Carter's collection, his subsequent decision to put his collection up for sale, his 90th birthday, and his death not long after. all the best, Kevin Barry |
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Many of the Harris cards came from the Copeland collection. Copeland was one of the first guys to pay big bucks for cherry cards. As most folks know scores of dealers took advantage of this and really took Copeland to the cleaners with scores of hacked cards.
It think this is why folks look at them the way they do. |
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Over the years I have either owned or seen (in person) thousands of cards from Lionel Carter's personal collection and have yet to see "a lot" that are "questionable" as you put it. While there are some cards that are graded "authentic" due to trimming, there is no evidence that deceptive alterations were performed. But why would there be? The cards remained in Lionel Carter's albums until they were sent to SGC for grading. Any trimming that is present is noted, in some form, on the label of each card holder and was done, to the best of my knowledge, back in the day. If anything, many of the cards that are graded from LC's collection sell for premiums, not just because of the pedigree, but because there are quite a few that are "NM-MT" or "Mint" but are downgraded severely due to very minor defects. For instance, I've sold quite a few Diamond Stars, Leafs, and Bowmans that had a visual appearance far better than the grade on the holder might otherwise indicate. Finally, I think there's a certain "mystique" to Lionel Carter. We've all heard the stories but I think it's certainly relevant that Lionel Carter was one of the hobby pioneers and was active in the early cataloguing process. He was also a contemporary/good friend of Jefferson Burdick and obtained some of his cards from Burdick including his 1933 Goudey Lajoie. As the story goes, Lionel Carter was complaining to Burdick that he was missing one of the cards in the set so Burdick wrote back saying that he had a "couple extra" of card #106 and would send one to Carter for free. The irony is that I've seen Burdick's remaining Lajoie at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the one he sent away to his friend was a better card. Last edited by MW1; 11-12-2013 at 03:14 AM. |
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Mike, great post thanks for sharing agree 100%.
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As Mike said, Carter cards sell for a premium because of Carter's standing in the hobby PLUS the great likelihood that his cards are NOT trimmed. His cards didn't trade hands and end up with card doctors over the years.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
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Kevin- i have owned several Harris cards (some 9oc's, an 8 and a 6). in hind-sight, most were not good. i purchased some directly from the SCP sale, i still have the catalog picturing every card. many look short, or have odd miscuts. i think today, collectors generally steer clear of them, ALTHOUGH i think there are some nice (legit) cards in the group, but they must have fat borders to be considered.
Last edited by MVSNYC; 11-12-2013 at 02:18 AM. |
#25
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I have some carter cards..
IMO, they are UNDERGRADED...
I think SGC showed zero favoritism and were actually quite tough on the fine gentlemen. |
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