Where have all the Cobb HINDU's gone.....?

[tedzan]

......a long time....waiting for them ? ?

OK, I have received numerous inquiries regarding all four T206 Cobb's with respect to Brown and Red HINDU backs. The following
is my observations on this subject.





This story first starts with the KIMBALL Factory (#649) in Rochester, NY. For it's history and it's Tobacco products, checkout
my earlier thread on Net54. During the T-card era, Factory #649 was considered "state-of-the art" with it's modern cigarette
manufacturing machinery.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=kimball


1st.....in 1909 American Litho. selected 35 existing SWEET CAPORAL 150 (Factory #30) subjects and modified their backs by
over-striking them and adding "Factory #649" in order to transfer these T206's to the Rochester plant (to be inserted in their
Sweet Caporal cigarette packs). Major HOFers in this subset include....Bresnahan, Griffith, Johnson, Lajoie, Marquard & Matty.

BUT, NO COBB ?


2nd.....simultaneously, American Litho. was printing T206's with Brown HINDU backs and shipping them to Factory #649.

But, apparently the two 150 Series COBB's (Green Portrait & Bat On) were not targeted to Factory #649 ?


3rd.....by early 1911, American Litho. extended the two 350 series Cobb's (Red Portrait & Bat Off) into the 460 series. Of the
41 - Red HINDU's that are known, guess what 2 subjects are missing....THESE TWO COBB's ? ?


4th.....subsequently, the 1911 T205 set, Cobb is found with 6 different T-backs, but not with the Factory #649 ones (HINDU
and HASSAN).


I cannot explain why Cobb cards were not inserted in Factory #649 cigarette packs. Perhaps, we will never know why. Any-
how, this pattern of Cobb "No Prints" is telling us something and that is.....to be very skeptical of any T206 Cobb cards that
have either a Brown or Red HINDU back.

I may be wrong on this observation. But, it should surely stir up some controversy.


TED Z

[PEEK enterprises]

Bummer - acquiring a Green Portrait with a Hindu Brown back was #1 on my list.

Didn't you just acquire the Bat On Cobb with a Hindu Brown reverse and post it a few weeks back? Are you now questioning its authenticity? I will gladly take it off your hands anytime.

[tedzan]

I acquired that Cobb about 10 years ago. It turned out to be a "re-backed" card. I traded away this Cobb years ago.
I informed the trader that it was not authentic. The F/B scan is still in my BB card library.

In the late 1990's, a rash of re-backed T206 star cards appeared in the hobby. These cards were very professionally
altered and some of them were graded by SGC and PSA. Two of the most "notorious" T206's were a Red Cobb with a
DRUM back and a Matty (portrait) with a Red HINDU back. The latter being an impossible front/back combo, raised an
awful lot of skepticism by veteran T206 collectors and was eventually removed from circulation.



TED Z

[PEEK enterprises]

Thanks for the clarifcation Ted.

That is a shame as the Cobb would have been such a great front/back combo. As with the Matty Portrait with a Red back. It's even more of a shame that several fake front/back combo's could be floating around, some graded by the finest authenticators, that would fool the majority of collectors and end up being nothing but novelty items. Very scary in fact.

Could you then list the backs (non-Piedmont or Sweet Caporal) that a Green Cobb can legitimately be found with? I recently picked up an Old Mill but have seen no others.

Thanks Ted

[insidethewrapper]

I'm so confused now. Which backs exist with each of the 4 Cobb's ? Ted, please list. I had a list which I thought was at 59 total not including the Ty Cobb back. What total do you have ? Again please list.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Double-P-Enterprises

Thanks for the clarifcation Ted.

That is a shame as the Cobb would have been such a great front/back combo. As with the Matty Portrait with a Red back. It's even more of a shame that several fake front/back combo's could be floating around, some graded by the finest authenticators, that would fool the majority of collectors and end up being nothing but novelty items. Very scary in fact.

Could you then list the backs (non-Piedmont or Sweet Caporal) that a Green Cobb can legitimately be found with? I recently picked up an Old Mill but have seen no others.

Thanks Ted

So the 150 series 649 Sweet Cap o/p's and the 350/460 red Hindu's are both a card shy of being divisible by 6 (35 and 41 known respectively)? Interesting. That almost suggests a double print in each series. It might be hard to ID with the red Hindu's but is there a single Sweet Cap from the o/p series that is found with more regularity than the others?

I wonder if the Cobb holdback had something to do with some exclusivity Cobb had in the Factory 649 distribution area which you think would or could include Detroit as it was on the upstate/Great Lakes transport network. Take a look at the Google map below , Rochester products could easily ship out of Buffalo (eastern end of Lake Erie) and go to Detroit (almost Western end of Lake Erie, then short canal trip) by water or probably direct from Rochester by rail.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=roches...ed=0CA4Q8gEwAA

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

Interesting subject.

You stated in the other thread:

"2nd....that brings me to the recent Red Cobb/Red HINDU card you alluded to. Frankly, I am very skeptical about this card as
being a authentic. I would like to see at least one or two more of these to feel confident that this front/back combo is real."

I haven't seen the card in person and it may very well be rebacked, but the red hindus are tough enough that there are several that I've only seen one example of so I don't think that's a good enough reason to discount it. How many Cy Young red hindus have you seen? I know Brian W. has a Johnson/red hindu, but I don't recall seeing another one.

Obviously, going back to Heitman's back theories, Bat On and Green Portrait should be available with brown Hindu backs.

In this thread a while back: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=cobb+hindu

I asked the question about whether or not the Bat On/Hindu combo existed because I knew I had never seen one. Aaron Seefeldt posted scans of both a red cobb/red hindu and a bat on/brown hindu. Not sure if that brown hindu was the same card that you own or what.

Anyways, I would personally guess that a Cobb bat on with brown hindu will turn up.

Rob

[tedzan]

As requested..........

Green portrait
_____________

PIEDMONT 150 Factory 25
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
SOVEREIGN 150
SWEET CAPORAL 15O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
OLD MILL

Bat on shoulder
______________

PIEDMONT 150 Factory 25
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
SOVEREIGN 150
SOVEREIGN 350
SWEET CAPORAL 15O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
OLD MILL

Bat off shoulder
______________

UZIT
LENOX (black)
LENOX (brown)
CYCLE 460
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
EPDG
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
SOVEREIGN 350
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
TOLSTOI
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
POLAR BEAR

Red portrait
__________

BROAD LEAF 460
DRUM
SOVEREIGN 460
LENOX (black)
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
CYCLE 350
SOVEREIGN 350
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
TOLSTOI
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
POLAR BEAR


TED Z

[tedzan]

You asked several ?'s, I'll start with this one:
" Obviously, going back to Heitman's back theories, Bat On and Green Portrait should be available with
brown Hindu backs. "

Over 30 years ago when Bill researched his book, he didn't have the benefit of the Internet. Neverthe-
less, Bill once told me he had sampled several 100,000's (if not a million) of T206's, so one would think
he'd come across at least one Cobb (green or bat on) HINDU ? Furthermore, when "The Monster" was
published (in 1980) he said he knew of only 6 red HINDU cards.


2nd ?...." Not sure if that brown hindu was the same card that you own or what. "

The fellow I traded that card to submitted it for grading (back in 2002) and it was rejected as being
"altered".

3rd ?...." How many Cy Young red hindus have you seen? "

I have never seen this CYoung; however, a Net54er has seen it and told me about it. And, I trust his
word. Yes, there are some Red HINDU's that appear to be unique and there are others that exist in
multiples.

Rob, I would love to see an original Cobb HINDU of any stripe. But, after 29 years of collecting T206's
I have not seen one. It has certainly been a mystery to me and that is why I have delved into the
"nitty-gritty" of perhaps why. Simply, because my mind desires a plausible explanation. So, we can
not ignore this "Factory #649" pattern that is evident across three T-brands and two T-card issues.

Whatever, I await to see a HINDU Cobb (T205 or T206).


TED Z

[E93]

Originally Posted by tedzan

..
3rd.....by early 1911, American Litho. extended the two 350 series Cobb's (Red Portrait & Bat Off) into the 460 series. Of the
41 - Red HINDU's that are known, guess what 2 subjects are missing....THESE TWO COBB's ? ?



TED Z

The red Hindu, red portrait Cobb above, which I remember was in a Mastro auction about ten or eleven years ago, looks good to me. I don't see any glaring reason to suspect it is re-backed. It would be easy enough to put it under a black light and look at the edges to see if any glue fluoresces. But my hunch is that the more likely scenario is that is legit. If in theory a bat off example should also exist, given the extreme rarity of all red Hindus (usually only one-two known examples of known issues), it would not be at all surprising if it was simply that none survived. I can't see Cobb being ok with printing millions of those cards, but singling out a single factory or distribution area that he did not want them.
JimB