T206 sov 460 super print question

[mrvster]

Hello All

Picked this up the other day off the bay(haven't received yet), and i have been dabbling in combos....was wondering thoughts on :


1) what caused the "pink" border.....factory or not??

2) how rare actually is the Chance yellow port super print???????????????, i 've read the Cobb,Evers, and Mr chance are tuf 460 superprint....


thoughts??

Peace

[Abravefan11]

It's my opinion that the theory stating the six super prints are tougher than all other Sovereign 460's is not true. There are a group of 460 subjects that were printed in much larger numbers with Sovereign 460 backs than all the rest and you will see them much more often. But the remainder appear to be relative when tracking this back and if you selected a number of subjects from this group and tracked them, you would see that they don't come to market that often either.

[mrvster]

tim

thanks buddy, you or jim would know....for some reason the card was calling me! i don't think the ink around the border was from factory ???cause i haven't received it yet to really give it a looksy, hope it is, but i think the probability is low...i have been scooping a few sov 460 beaters here and there, and have heard the chatter of the super print 460 sov being scarcity as lets say, hindu.....well, having tracked these backs as close... thanks again for opinion....

peace

johnny

[Abravefan11]

No problem Johnny. It's a pretty complicated issue but the short basic answer is if the six SP subjects were short printed, than other subjects would have been short printed as well, not just those six.

[mrvster]

Tim,

Thanks!!was wondering how just a few cards could be short printed also?? whatever the number, i doubt al put together a seperate sheet with just the super prints....i am just confused about this one....

anyway, thought maybe i had a rarer than avg sov 460....btw...what do u make of the ink???nail polish?? why just in the borders??

[Abravefan11]

Don't get me wrong, there are different levels of scarcity within the Sovereign 460 group and the SP's were printed less than some others, but they are part of a group of cards printed less, they don't stand alone.

The ink doesn't just stay on the borders. You can see it on Chances face as well. I don't believe it happened at the factory.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

It's my opinion that the theory stating the six super prints are tougher than all other Sovereign 460's is not true. There are a group of 460 subjects that were printed in much larger numbers with Sovereign 460 backs than all the rest and you will see them much more often. But the remainder appear to be relative when tracking this back and if you selected a number of subjects from this group and tracked them, you would see that they don't come to market that often either.

Tim

You certainly are entitled to your opinion....but, what do you base it on ? Have you put together a complete set of 402 different SOVEREIGN cards ?
And, augmented this sub-set with the SOVEREIGN 460 super-prints ?

I don't think so ! Or, you would never say that the super-prints are no scarcer than the remaining 46 subjects with the SOVEREIGN 460 back. Only,
when you take on the challenge of actually putting together this set, will you appreciate how much tougher it is to find the six super-prints with the
SOVEREIGN 460 backs.

I completed this set in just 11 months (thanks to a SOVEREIGN find of 286 cards that I acquired). It took me almost another year to acquire 5 of the
SOVEREIGN 460 super-prints. And, it took me 2 more years to finally get the Cobb with the SOVEREIGN 460 back.

But, lately you choose to question anything I post regarding T206's and I (and others here) find that quite disconcerting. And, if I tell you that long-
term T206 surveys have confirmed what I am saying here....you will be your usual contrarian self. So, for your own edification, check-out the POP
reports and compare any of the 46 - SOVEREIGN 460 subjects with the 6 super-prints with the 460 back.


TED Z

[mrvster]

thanks tim!!

my monitor sux!!lol....i thought he had rosey cheeks.....ted, i didn't want 2 start a war, just not clear on the whole super print theory....was hoping to have scored a rarer than avg card.....ab 460/hindu level at an affordable price tag


peace

i hope

[tedzan]

Your SOVEREIGN 460 Chance is a nice get. Submit it for grading with SGC....as, they do not have this card graded in their POP reports.

Also, I posted an interesting thread on the T206 super-prints 4 months ago. Here is the link, check it out......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t=super+prints

Regards,

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

So, for your own edification, check-out the POP
reports and compare any of the 46 - SOVEREIGN 460 subjects with the 6 super-prints with the 460 back.

TED Z

Using the pop reports to determine scarcity is difficult because much of the information is incomplete. PSA does not differentiate between series so it’s impossible to tell how many of the cards on their report have 350 or 460 series backs. This renders PSA’s pop reports with regard to the super prints useless. SGC does differentiate between backs but for many years they did not separate poses but instead counted them all into one nondescript listing. For example in the Hal Chase report it lists the following for Sovereign 460:

Nondescript = 19
Trophy = 4
Blue Port = 2
Black Cap = 1

How many of the 19 were Trophy, Blue Port or Black Cap poses? We can't know.

Fortunately there are three super print subjects that are only possible with one pose with a 460 Series back so we know the nondescript are the same as the identified pose. For example Evers:

Nondescript = 6
w/ Bat = 1
Total Evers w/ Bat = 7

The total SGC pop numbers for the three super prints we can determine the total for are:

Cobb = 3
Evers = 7
Mathewson = 5

For a comparison these are the pop numbers for some other 460 Only subjects.

Abbaticchio = 5
Ball = 7
Bergen = 7
Bescher = 7
Devore = 5
Herzog = 6
Howell = 6
Meyers = 7
Oldering = 6
Overall = 6
Schaeffer = 7
Stovall = 7

All of these subjects on the pop report are equal to or between Evers and Mathewson. So if we’re going to use the pop report to determine scarcity I believe the only conclusion would be that the twelve common cards I listed would be equal in scarcity to the super prints of Evers and Mathewson.

Cobb only has a pop report of 3 but Murray also has a pop report of 3. Given the number of entries it’s expected for some subjects to fall just below or just above the median.

Now as I stated before there is a group that I believe were printed much more than the others and the pop report is a good indicator of that. Some of them are the following:

Crandall = 18
Duffy = 20
Ford = 30
Gandil = 21
Geyer = 16
Sheckard = 16
Tannehill = 32
Wheat = 15

In conclusion some cards within the Sovereign 460 back set do appear to have been printed more than the super prints but I have not seen any evidence to show that the super prints were printed less than all the other cards in the group.

[tedzan]

Tim

The SGC pop report data I have is as follows......

Super-Print .... SOV 460 .... SOV 350

Chance .............. 0 .............. 5

Chase (port) ....... 2 .............. 6

Chase (dk cap) .... 1 .............. 2

Cobb ................. 1 ............... 8

Evers ................. 1 .............. 2

Mathewson ......... 0 .............. 4

460-Only cards range from 4 - 40 examples


I got this data off the SGC website today. Where are you getting your numbers from, they don't jive ?

Furthermore, as we know pop reports can be misleading. That is why I have more confidence in a long-term T206 survey of 15,000 cards,
which I constantly refer to in my research.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tim

The SGC pop report data I have is as follows......

Super-Print .... SOV 460 .... SOV 350

Cobb ................. 1 ............... 8

Evers ................. 1 .............. 2

Mathewson ......... 0 .............. 4

I got this data off the SGC website today. Where are you getting your numbers from, they don't jive ?

TED Z

These are fresh screen shots from SGC's pop reports just taken for Evers, Cobb and Mathewson. The other three can not be accurately totaled.