HOF expansion era ballot

[mighty bombjack]

The ballot has been announced

http://baseballhall.org/news/press-r...ideration-2014

I think the three managers get in. I think Miller is deserving and feel he will get in this time. Steinbrenner sure had the "fame," but I don't think he gets the votes yet.

Any thoughts?

[Lordstan]

I never got the whole Joe Torre manager thing. I watched him for over a decade manage the Mets, Braves, and Cards. IMHO, he couldn't manage an NL team if his life depended on it. All of a sudden, he is managing the Yanks with a young core of Jeter, Posada, Mo, and Pettite, mixed with Martinez, Williams, Wells, Cone, Fielder, Davis, Brosious, Boggs, Key, etc, etc. He wins 4WS in the first 5yrs and then none in the next 7 while having even more all time players added to his roster.
I guess winning 4 WS in 29yrs managing is pretty good, but I never felt that he got more out of his players than was expected and often got less. Interestingly, LaRussa took over in St L for Torre in 1996 and promptly won the division. The Cards went from 62-81 to 88-74 in one year without significant roster changes that I can recall.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I never got the whole Joe Torre manager thing. I watched him for over a decade manage the Mets, Braves, and Cards. IMHO, he couldn't manage an NL team if his life depended on it. All of a sudden, he is managing the Yanks with a young core of Jeter, Posada, Mo, and Pettite, mixed with Martinez, Williams, Wells, Cone, Fielder, Davis, Brosious, Boggs, Key, etc, etc. He wins 4WS in the first 5yrs and then none in the next 7 while having even more all time players added to his roster.
I guess winning 4 WS in 29yrs managing is pretty good, but I never felt that he got more out of his players than was expected and often got less. Interestingly, LaRussa took over in St L for Torre in 1996 and promptly won the division. The Cards went from 62-81 to 88-74 in one year without significant roster changes that I can recall.

You speak the truth, and there are many who feel that anybody could have managed those Yankee teams. Torre does have a pretty damn good playing career going for him as well, and continues to contribute to the game from MLB offices.

On the flip side of this is the question of whether a manager who benefited from (and possibly accepted or even fostered) steroid usage should be put in while players under him are being held out. Of course, this is a different body of voters.

Interesting questions.

[btcarfagno]

I have always had a soft spot for Simmons and the Hall because I think he got shafted when he was initially on the ballot. For that guy, as one of the greatest catchers in history, to get less than 5% his first year on the ballot was an absolute travesty.

That said, I don't really think he deserves to be in the Hall. I just wish he had gotten his due on the ballots in the first place.

If I had a vote, LaRussa and Cox get in, Torre gets in, and Miller gets in. Parker is the closest for the players, but I don't think he quite makes it.

Tom C

[packs]

I don't see how you can say that about Joe Torre unless you also have a problem with Casey Stengel getting in. In 13 seasons as a non-Yankees manager the highest he ever finished was 5th.

Torre finished first with the Braves in 1982 and won the Western division twice in a row with the Dodgers.

My opinion is Torre is the only HOFer out of the bunch.

[sylbry]

Nobody should get in. None are worthy. It's obnoxious how we all know and dislike how the Hall is being watered down with lesser talent only to keep giving those lesser talents more opportunities to get in. Ron Santo being the perfect example. How many times was his candidacy vetted? Has to be over twenty times? Seems to be we keep giving players opportunities until those voting forget said player was good enough to be elected in the first place.


And Miller being on the ballot is a joke. He was a labor leader and never set foot on the field. It is bad enough that umps, owners, and commissioners are in.

Putting down the mic and humbly getting off my soap box. I thank you for wasting a minute to read my opinion.

[packs]

Marvin Miller's candidacy always baffled me. How can he have such a strong case for HOF consideration while Curt Flood is ignored?

Marvin Miller has no legacy without Curt Flood. If Miller is a HOFer for his contributions to baseball then so is Curt Flood.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Nobody should get in. None are worthy. It's obnoxious how we all know and dislike how the Hall is being watered down with lesser talent only to keep giving those lesser talents more opportunities to get in. Ron Santo being the perfect example. How many times was his candidacy vetted? Has to be over twenty times? Seems to be we keep giving players opportunities until those voting forget said player was good enough to be elected in the first place.


And Miller being on the ballot is a joke. He was a labor leader and never set foot on the field. It is bad enough that umps, owners, and commissioners are in.

Putting down the mic and humbly getting off my soap box. I thank you for wasting a minute to read my opinion.

Speaking as one who believed Santo belonged in the Hall long ago, I vehimently disagree. As you can see with the induction of players like Santo and Blyleven, the Hall recognizes that how players were perceived when they were originally voted on can change over the years. Advanced metrics now show some players, such as Blyleven and Santo, to have been far more valuable than was previously thought. This is the reason for votes such as these.

As for Miller, he is one of the most important figures in the history of the sport. There should be little doubt about that. Yes, Curt Flood took his case to the Supreme Court, but Miller was there with him. Miller effectively ended the reserve clause, and he made the baseball players union into perhaps the strongest in the country. His actions helped lead the game to where it is today financially. Heck. If Bowie Kuhn is in the Hall of Fame but Marvin Miller isn't...???? Seems a bit ass-backwards to me.

Tom C

[djson1]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Nobody should get in. None are worthy. It's obnoxious how we all know and dislike how the Hall is being watered down with lesser talent only to keep giving those lesser talents more opportunities to get in. Ron Santo being the perfect example. How many times was his candidacy vetted? Has to be over twenty times? Seems to be we keep giving players opportunities until those voting forget said player was good enough to be elected in the first place.


And Miller being on the ballot is a joke. He was a labor leader and never set foot on the field. It is bad enough that umps, owners, and commissioners are in.

Putting down the mic and humbly getting off my soap box. I thank you for wasting a minute to read my opinion.

I almost completely agree with you here, except IMO, I do think Garvey is HOF-worthy. Garvey was one of the most reliable players in the '70s and early '80s. To me, he's just like Mattingly: I don't know why these reliable and productive players have been snubbed. I agree with you on Santo though. Was never really impressed with him.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I have always had a soft spot for Simmons and the Hall because I think he got shafted when he was initially on the ballot. For that guy, as one of the greatest catchers in history, to get less than 5% his first year on the ballot was an absolute travesty.

That said, I don't really think he deserves to be in the Hall. I just wish he had gotten his due on the ballots in the first place.

If I had a vote, LaRussa and Cox get in, Torre gets in, and Miller gets in. Parker is the closest for the players, but I don't think he quite makes it.

Tom C

I feel the same way about Lou Whitaker: is he a HOFer? No, probably not. But to not even make it off the first ballot is insulting.

Also agree: no player on this ballot is a HOFer. I think the 3 managers will make it, but it's hard to see them all get in this year.

Now, if Simmons DOES get in this year, that loud thumping sound you'll hear is me kicking myself in the head. I had a bat of his for probably 10 years, and I just sold it.

Ken

[Runscott]

LaRussa and Cox, or one of the two.

[Big Six]

Good point about Billy Martin and his managing ability...your description of turning losers in to winners sounds a lot like Buck Showalter (minus Martin's caustic personality). Will be interesting to see how Buck is regarded, especially if he wins a championship or two in the years to come. So far it seems his teams win right after he leaves for a new project ( see Yanks, DBacks, etc.).


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[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Big Six

Good point about Billy Martin and his managing ability...your description of turning losers in to winners sounds a lot like Buck Showalter (minus Martin's caustic personality). Will be interesting to see how Buck is regarded, especially if he wins a championship or two in the years to come. So far it seems his teams win right after he leaves for a new project ( see Yanks, DBacks, etc.).


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Good point but alot of that could be "front office" Billy was personally grabbing them out of the farm system , and PRISON ! See Ron LaFlore

Stengel had great success but he had Barrow and Weiss
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[JimStinson]

Anyway ...like it or not ....My picks for who will be inducted will be Tommy John & Joe Torre ..anyone else what to go out on a limb ?...
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[Lordstan]

I never saw Parker play, but it's hard for me to believe he was better than Keith Hernandez. As a Mets fan during the 80s, I saw him pull off absolutely ridiculous plays day in and day out. If we are putting in guys strictly based on defense, he should definitely be in.

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[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I never saw Parker play, but it's hard for me to believe he was better than Keith Hernandez. As a Mets fan during the 80s, I saw him pull off absolutely ridiculous plays day in and day out. If we are putting in guys strictly based on defense, he should definitely be in.

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Parker was a SMOOTH operator at 1st base. I saw them both play and Parker was special, FWIW...

As a side note, Wes Parker had a baseball card shop in So Cal for many years that was called Wes Parker's Dugout. I always enjoyed visiting it back in the day when I collected BB cards...

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Parker was a SMOOTH operator at 1st base. I saw them both play and Parker was special, FWIW...

As a side note, Wes Parker had a baseball card shop in So Cal for many years that was called Wes Parker's Dugout. I always enjoyed visiting it back in the day when I collected BB cards...

Wes Parker was, and may still be my all time favorite player. Best 1b with the glove of all time in my book, but Hernandez was right there with him. Hernandez had a longer career, more gold gloves, changed the way 1b's held on runners, and was a great hitter. As a matter of fact, 11 gold gloves and a .296 average (he would have been right at .300 without those last two partial years) and two WS rings on 2 different teams shout out hall of fame to me.

[djson1]

And plus, Parker was on an episode of the Brady Bunch. Any athlete good enough to be on the BB deserves to be in the HOF. Just look at Drysdale.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by djson1

And plus, Parker was on an episode of the Brady Bunch. Any athlete good enough to be on the BB deserves to be in the HOF. Just look at Drysdale.

Well... Drysdale was on Leave It To Beaver, too. That is a big plus.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by djson1

And plus, Parker was on an episode of the Brady Bunch. Any athlete good enough to be on the BB deserves to be in the HOF. Just look at Drysdale.

And Hernandez was on Seinfeld....... so the debate continues!

[bigtrain]

Not sure about this year but LaRussa, Cox and Torre eventually get in, as does Miller and probably even Steinbrenner. For some reason I really don't get, they like to honor owners and executives. I mean Barney Dreyfus, Jacob Ruppert? Really? Steinbrenner also served on the Board of Directors of the Hall of Fame for many years with several of the 16 members of the electorate. Had Joe Torre played two or three more years behind the plate, he would have been elected as a player. Ted Simmons was a fine catcher, slightly behind Torre as a hitter. As there are only 13 catchers in the Hall and I would only rank maybe 6 or 7 of them ahead of Simmons, I have no problem with him being elected either.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I never saw Parker play, but it's hard for me to believe he was better than Keith Hernandez. As a Mets fan during the 80s, I saw him pull off absolutely ridiculous plays day in and day out. If we are putting in guys strictly based on defense, he should definitely be in.

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Hernandez had a great glove for sure but the difference between him and Parker was , Hernandez had a knack for making difficult plays look astonishing , Wes Parker made astonishing plays look EASY

Rawlings awarded the gold glove of the century a few years back at each position , and Wes Parker won at the position of 1st base

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[mighty bombjack]

Announcement coming today, but I can't find when or how it will be made.

[parker1b2]

On radio they just said Cox, LaRussa, Torre voted in, didn't mention anyone else.

[nebboy]

MLB.tv has press conf for the 3 managers

[brewing]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Dick Allen. Mattingly isn't near his level.