This is what's wrong with the average ebay buyer

[Exhibitman]

This is why I do not believe anything an eBay buyer tells me:

________made you an offer 6 Nov 2021 at 5:28:20pm PDT
Offer Price:
$300.00 ( 1 x $300.00 )
Buyer's Message:
Best i can do , if it helps, either way thanks.

_______made you an offer 6 Nov 2021 at 6:19:05pm PDT
Offer Price:
$325.00 ( 1 x $325.00 )
Offer Declined6 Nov 2021 at 5:28:20pm PDT

_______made you an offer6 Nov 2021 at 6:19:16pm PDT
Offer Price:
$351.00 ( 1 x $351.00 )

So the best he can do is $300...until fifty minutes later? What changed? Perhaps a sudden inheritance? Maybe found some change in the couch cushions?

And why do these idiots think I care what "the best [they] can do is" anyway? That's a stupid argument. "Yeah, the best I can do is to get to work at 10:00, boss. Whaddaya mean I'm fired?"

The outright lying on eBay has gotten much worse with the hobby boom. Lots of newbies who have no connection with the hobby and no compunctions about flat-out lying to get what they want. That, plus they do not know how to read or simply do not bother. I had one newbie order then cancel on 20+ cards because he was pissed at what eBay's Global Shipping charged him. He told me what he thought was reasonable and since it was a profitable enough sale I offered him a refund to that cost but he still reneged. Another guy thought he was buying a dozen $10 cards for $10 just because they were depicted in a scan, despite the listing stating that he is bidding on one card. His excuse was that he didn't read the description...combined with the accusation that I was doing something deceptive. Yeah, when I don't read something I always blame it on someone else: "Why no, officer, I did not read that no parking sign...but had I read it I KNOW it would have been deceptively worded."

Now, all of you kids get off my lawn!

[iwantitiwinit]

They say best I can do. They mean best I want to do.

[Mark17]

That is not a phenomena unique to ebay.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

That is not a phenomena unique to ebay.

I know, but I was trying to stay on-topic.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

His excuse was that he didn't read the description...combined with the accusation that I was doing something deceptive. Yeah, when I don't read something I always blame it on someone else: "Why no, officer, I did not read that no parking sign...must've been deceptively worded."

Ninety five percent (yes, 95%) of the messages I receive from other ebayers contain a question that is explicitly answered within the listing. When my reply contains "As mentioned in the listing....." the general response is "I just didn't read the listing"????

[ClementeFanOh]

There are plenty of horrid sellers on ebay, who keep those buyers company.
The problems with ebay are parallel to those of highway driving: it's popular,
but you have to hop on with a bunch of idiots who ruin the experience.

Trent King

[mrreality68]

Welcome to the world of EBay

This is also why some sellers will charge over market value.

Because many uneducated collectors/investors will happily pay it.

[ballparks]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Welcome to the world of EBay

This is also why some sellers will charge over market value.

Because many uneducated collectors/investors will happily pay it.

I see this with tickets these days. There is a BOOM in uneducated collectors right now being taken full advantage of. The hobby is in a sad state right now.

[perezfan]

I've bought and sold on ebay, many times over the years. Perhaps the recent card boom has brought out a crappy new crop of buyers. But over the past 20 years, I would say there are a lot more bad sellers than buyers.

So many (countless) sellers hide flaws, lie about condition and conveniently leave things out of their pictures and descriptions. And some of their packaging/shipping methods defy all logic.

On the flip-side, I can't recall ever having a buyer refuse to pay, make a return, or renege on a transaction. Just lucky, I suppose.

[ClementeFanOh]

Mark (Perez Fan)- You are spot on. A couple weeks ago, I messaged an
ebay seller about a raw 52 Bowman Don Newcombe. We hadn't done
past business, so I introduced myself and asked if there were any creases
his photo didn't show, and to expand on the flaws/weaknesses of the card.
I was as polite as could be and told him I liked his card... so, he emailed
back and flatly stated he "didn't want to be held accountable" for any detail
about his card! He also made excuses (poor eyesight) about not being able
to answer very basic questions, and flatly refused to answer. THIS is why I
rarely do business on that site. Trent King

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Mark (Perez Fan)- You are spot on. A couple weeks ago, I messaged an
ebay seller about a raw 52 Bowman Don Newcombe. We hadn't done
past business, so I introduced myself and asked if there were any creases
his photo didn't show, and to expand on the flaws/weaknesses of the card.
I was as polite as could be and told him I liked his card... so, he emailed
back and flatly stated he "didn't want to be held accountable" for any detail
about his card! He also made excuses (poor eyesight) about not being able
to answer very basic questions, and flatly refused to answer. THIS is why I
rarely do business on that site. Trent King

And it is because of internet/online sellers like this that grading and TPGs became such a big deal. Except all the grading and TPGs did was create a whole new and different set of issues and problems. Wish there were more in-person shows and auctions to go to. Always liked being able to hold and examine something before I buy it. A huge part of the fun of collecting to me was going to flea markets, garage/estate sales, auctions, card shops, and such. Sitting at my desk perusing Ebay has never been as enjoyable, and never will be, especially when you never really know what you're getting till it finally shows up at your door.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Welcome to the world of EBay

This is also why some buyers will charge over market value.

Because many uneducated collectors/investors will happily pay it.

Uhhhh... I think you might want to reevaluate your definition of "market value"?

Originally Posted by perezfan

I've bought and sold on ebay, many times over the years. Perhaps the recent card boom has brought out a crappy new crop of buyers. But over the past 20 years, I would say there are a lot more bad sellers than buyers.

So many (countless) sellers hide flaws, lie about condition and conveniently leave things out of their pictures and descriptions. And some of their packaging/shipping methods defy all logic.

This ^^^

So many bad sellers. The annoying thing now is that eBay removes valid negative feedback now. Negative feedback rarely sticks in eBay anymore. They realized that if they just delete all the negative feedback that buyers have more confidence in making purchases on eBay. I had a seller list a card as mint condition that showed up with no less than 3 creases on it. Seller fought me and refused to accept a return. EBay customer service got involved forced him to accept a return. So I shipped it back. Tracking showed delivered but eBay's system had a glitch that wouldn't connect the tracking status to the case number, so seller tried again to keep both my money AND the card now. Had to prove to ebay that it was delivered weeks later after he refused to refund. Let negative feedback. Poof, it was gone a few days later. Dude has 100% positive feedback now despite being the shit of the earth. This is happening in the vast majority of cases now. Ebay just removes negative feedback.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Uhhhh... I think you might want to reevaluate your definition of "market value"?



This ^^^

So many bad sellers. The annoying thing now is that eBay removes valid negative feedback now. Negative feedback rarely sticks in eBay anymore. They realized that if they just delete all the negative feedback that buyers have more confidence in making purchases on eBay. I had a seller list a card as mint condition that showed up with no less than 3 creases on it. Seller fought me and refused to accept a return. EBay customer service got involved forced him to accept a return. So I shipped it back. Tracking showed delivered but eBay's system had a glitch that wouldn't connect the tracking status to the case number, so seller tried again to keep both my money AND the card now. Had to prove to ebay that it was delivered weeks later after he refused to refund. Let negative feedback. Poof, it was gone a few days later. Dude has 100% positive feedback now despite being the shit of the earth. This is happening in the vast majority of cases now. Ebay just removes negative feedback.

Hi

I meant some sellers will charge over market value and some buyers will buy it over the current market value

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I've bought and sold on ebay, many times over the years. Perhaps the recent card boom has brought out a crappy new crop of buyers. But over the past 20 years, I would say there are a lot more bad sellers than buyers.

So many (countless) sellers hide flaws, lie about condition and conveniently leave things out of their pictures and descriptions. And some of their packaging/shipping methods defy all logic.

On the flip-side, I can't recall ever having a buyer refuse to pay, make a return, or renege on a transaction. Just lucky, I suppose.

To the bold part, that is my experience also. We have sellers too lazy to put the correct picture up and they complain about the buyers.

[Jim65]

Sellers do the exact same thing. I've seen many say "thats the lowest I can go" then they end up going lower.

I guess thats Ebay's average seller too?

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I've bought and sold on ebay, many times over the years. Perhaps the recent card boom has brought out a crappy new crop of buyers. But over the past 20 years, I would say there are a lot more bad sellers than buyers.

So many (countless) sellers hide flaws, lie about condition and conveniently leave things out of their pictures and descriptions. And some of their packaging/shipping methods defy all logic.

On the flip-side, I can't recall ever having a buyer refuse to pay, make a return, or renege on a transaction. Just lucky, I suppose.

I agree... sellers have always been a much bigger problem on eBay than buyers. The only people with experience on the platform who think buyers are the problem are sellers - and usually the shady ones. lol

[ballparks]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I've bought and sold on ebay, many times over the years. Perhaps the recent card boom has brought out a crappy new crop of buyers. But over the past 20 years, I would say there are a lot more bad sellers than buyers.

So many (countless) sellers hide flaws, lie about condition and conveniently leave things out of their pictures and descriptions. And some of their packaging/shipping methods defy all logic.

On the flip-side, I can't recall ever having a buyer refuse to pay, make a return, or renege on a transaction. Just lucky, I suppose.

There are a LOT of scumbag sellers that care nothing other than ripping people off. I'm getting sick of it.

[Jcosta19]

Caveat - this was not on a card

I had a seller just last week accept my offer on a new in box item last week.

I paid and the following day they apologized and said the item isn't available because they just tested the last one they had and it doesn't work.
I could wait 15-20 days for new stock or get a refund.

I said I'd wait (since it was a Christmas gift so no rush) but didn't tell them that.
But I also asked why they tested an item that was new in original sealed box?

No answer on the testing
The next day its marked as shipped without tracking.
I asked what changed and they said they have to mark it because ebay asks them to ship everyday.

Long story short...this crap is much worse than trying to get a deal as a buyer in my opinion.
After a few days I requested a refund today, we will see where this mess goes from here.


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Eric72]

I've been selling vinyl records on eBay. While slightly different than sports cards, the similarities with listings/customer interactions/sales are abundant.

They're described accurately, graded conservatively, and listed with numerous (clear, not blurry) pictures.

I am responsive to messages and communicate professionally.

The records are packaged securely and shipped the next business day - without exception.

Perhaps not coincidentally, I have nearly zero issues with any of my transactions.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I've been selling vinyl records on eBay. While slightly different than sports cards, the similarities with listings/customer interactions/sales are abundant.

They're described accurately, graded conservatively, and listed with numerous (clear, not blurry) pictures.

I am responsive to messages and communicate professionally.

The records are packaged securely and shipped the next business day - without exception.

Perhaps not coincidentally, I have nearly zero issues with any of my transactions.

Wish there were more sellers like you, Eric...

There are, of course more good sellers than bad. But the bad ones tend to stick in your memory bank a lot longer, haha.

Needless to say, it shouldn't be nearly as difficult as they make it.

[Snapolit1]

Most basic rule of negotiating is that when you tell the other side "this is my best and final" or "this is as good as I can do" you don't back off that, or you lose 100% of your credibility.

On ebay I've done pretty well with prewar. Modern cards? The wild west. Buyers are scammers and people pulling crap I've seen 100 times before. I assume young guys wheeling and dealing. I laugh at their transparent hijinks and silly stunts. Refuse to let them aggravate me. At the first sniff of trouble we are done. I'd rather sell my card tp an honorable person for less.

[buymycards]

No, the average buyer is not the way that you portray them. I have sold to over 1000 eBay buyers in the past year, and 99% of are smooth transactions, with no problems. No matter what you do or where you sell, there will always be the 1% who are losers, but the overwhelming % of them are good people.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Another guy thought he was buying a dozen $10 cards for $10 just because they were depicted in a scan, despite the listing stating that he is bidding on one card.

Not gonna lie, I've always thought listings like this are at least a little deceptive. If your auction photo and title don't clearly convey exactly what is being sold - that, is you're requiring people to obtain necessary information from the description - you're asking for trouble. And, for a lot of sellers (not saying you), they're hoping to prey on people who don't read descriptions because they expect titles and photos to be complete.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Not gonna lie, I've always thought listings like this are at least a little deceptive. If your auction photo and title don't clearly convey exactly what is being sold - that, is you're requiring people to obtain necessary information from the description - you're asking for trouble. And, for a lot of sellers (not saying you), they're hoping to prey on people who don't read descriptions because they expect titles and photos to be complete.

I disagree but then I remembered that half of all people are of below average intelligence (think about it), so best not to assume average intelligence. Any listings i post now that show a number of cheap cards but are selling them singly says "1 card ONLY" in the title. That way even an idiot reading the title and not bothering with the description will see it plain as day.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I disagree but then I remembered that half of all people are of below average intelligence (think about it), so best not to assume average intelligence. Any listings i post now that show a number of cheap cards but are selling them singly says "1 card ONLY" in the title. That way even an idiot reading the title and not bothering with the description will see it plain as day.

You're assuming the idiots can read and aren't just looking at the pretty pictures

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I disagree but then I remembered that half of all people are of below average intelligence (think about it), so best not to assume average intelligence. Any listings i post now that show a number of cheap cards but are selling them singly says "1 card ONLY" in the title. That way even an idiot reading the title and not bothering with the description will see it plain as day.

Would you care to share an example of your listings like you're describing?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Not gonna lie, I've always thought listings like this are at least a little deceptive. If your auction photo and title don't clearly convey exactly what is being sold - that, is you're requiring people to obtain necessary information from the description - you're asking for trouble. And, for a lot of sellers (not saying you), they're hoping to prey on people who don't read descriptions because they expect titles and photos to be complete.

+1 How much intelligence does it take to only show the item(s) actually for sale. Maybe those sellers are below average.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

+1 How much intelligence does it take to only show the item(s) actually for sale. Maybe those sellers are below average.

Not intelligence, just time. Listing each cheap card singly is a huge time-suck.

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Not intelligence, just time. Listing each cheap card singly is a huge time-suck.

Looks like a you don’t have time they don’t have time situation.

[GrewUpWithJunkWax]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Not gonna lie, I've always thought listings like this are at least a little deceptive. If your auction photo and title don't clearly convey exactly what is being sold - that, is you're requiring people to obtain necessary information from the description - you're asking for trouble. And, for a lot of sellers (not saying you), they're hoping to prey on people who don't read descriptions because they expect titles and photos to be complete.

I'll agree that some of those listings can be misleading. I've clicked on some only to read in the details that only 1 of the items in the picture is for sale.

I might also add that even saying "RP" could be misleading, primarily to someone newer to the hobby. I suppose it comes down to knowing your audience, but it's eBay and the general public.

Another annoyance is finding down at the bottom of the description that the seller found said item in an attic and it may or may not be real, giving false hope to someone.

[FrankWakefield]

Those of whom you complain about are mere Grasshoppers...

Chill, Master Net54'ers... were you not once a Grasshopper as they are now?

Patience, your reward will be in educating, guiding, and nurturing these students.




OK, if you didn't watch Kung Fu as a kid, maybe watch this, and then watch a few season 1 episodes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J37QUZjOjF8

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Those of whom you complain about are mere Grasshoppers...

Chill, Master Net54'ers... were you not once a Grasshopper as they are now?

Patience, your reward will be in educating, guiding, and nurturing these students.

You can't educate, guide and nurture stupid.

[whiteymet]

What gets me is when a seller lists his card for $7.95 with make an offer, thats worth maybe $3 but I need for a not very important variation and I offer $5 and the seller counters at $7.50.

Why even have make an offer if you are only going to discount it 45 cents?

[GrewUpWithJunkWax]

Some people are better negotiators than others. Some enjoy the art of the deal, the back & forth. For some, it's a put off. When in person, it's obviously easier to read each other, but online you can't.

Some sellers price a bit higher, leaving room negotiation. They know that discussion of price goes down, not up.

You can't know everyone's situation. Was the person on a budget, but then convinced their spouse to spend a bit more? Maybe they went and studied comps and realized they'd have to go higher. Maybe they are just being deceitful. Who knows.

[Snapolit1]

Def see some weirdness on eBay. I was selling some silver coins recently and some guy from Poland reached out to me and asked if I could buy him some chemical cleaner that he can’t get in Poland and would pay well for it. I don’t now if it was an honest question from a coin collector or whether the CIA would be at my door tomorrow kicking it down. Certainly weird. Sorry dude.

I agree with someone above that a lot of the stupidity is just inquiries. Can you shut auction down and sell to me. I can get out the money but not will take a few days to get the pay pal arranged. That kind of stuff. I also appreciate people lecturing me about what it’s worth when I can see EBay recent sales perfectly well.

[Gorditadogg]

USPS will only allow a PWE to be 1/4 inch thick. If you put a piece of cardboard in there you are going to exceed that and if so shipping will be charged as a package. I have had to pay postage due many times from a seller who tried to put cardboard in an envelope and mail it with just a stamp.

A PWE is principally used to mail letters, and they are sorted through mechanical feeders. USPS has a special 85 cent stamp you can use to have the PWE hand sorted. My local post office advised that you should also mark the envelope NON MACHINABLE in red on the left side.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[ALBB]

I think its been going on forever...negotiating / bargaining/ try to chew down a price/ whatever you want to call it....buts its not just ebay... it happens in a lot of places ...

.walk into a card show or a card shop to sell a card to a dealer, - what do you want for it ? whats the best you will let it go ?, what are you into the card for ?, I cant go a penny more ..Throw out a number...throw out a bigger number,

seems like nothing new to me

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

USPS will only allow a PWE to be 1/4 inch thick. If you put a piece of cardboard in there you are going to exceed that and if so shipping will be charged as a package. I have had to pay postage due many times from a seller who tried to put cardboard in an envelope and mail it with just a stamp.

A PWE is principally used to mail letters, and they are sorted through mechanical feeders. USPS has a special 85 cent stamp you can use to have the PWE hand sorted. My local post office advised that you should also mark the envelope NON MACHINABLE in red on the left side.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

A Card Saver 1 taped to a folded invoice, then placed in the envelope, qualifies for the new eBay Standard Envelope option and it gives some protection to the card, plus the total weight is under one ounce.

Also, the PO raised the price of non-machinable letters to 30 cents, so you will need one of the new 88 cent stamps for a one ounce non-machinable letter.

In addition, do not mark envelopes that have the printed eBay Standard Envelope postage as non-machinable. These letters are machinable, and if you mark them non-machinable, your buyer will need to pay a postage due charge. These letters are tracked when they go through the letter processing machines at the entry and the destination processing plants. If you mark them as non-machinable, they don't go through the machines and they will not be tracked. The bar-codes on these letters are not able to be scanned by the clerks scanners or the carriers scanners - they are only detected by the letter processing machines. The eBay Standard Envelopes are only meant to be used on machinable letters.

[jh691626]

Originally Posted by buymycards

A Card Saver 1 taped to a folded invoice, then placed in the envelope, qualifies for the new eBay Standard Envelope option and it gives some protection to the card, plus the total weight is under one ounce.

Also, the PO raised the price of non-machinable letters to 30 cents, so you will need one of the new 88 cent stamps for a one ounce non-machinable letter.

In addition, do not mark envelopes that have the printed eBay Standard Envelope postage as non-machinable. These letters are machinable, and if you mark them non-machinable, your buyer will need to pay a postage due charge. These letters are tracked when they go through the letter processing machines at the entry and the destination processing plants. If you mark them as non-machinable, they don't go through the machines and they will not be tracked. The bar-codes on these letters are not able to be scanned by the clerks scanners or the carriers scanners - they are only detected by the letter processing machines. The eBay Standard Envelopes are only meant to be used on machinable letters.

Agree with Rick, we have been putting a card (or several) in a sleeve and holder, taping it to folded piece of paper, and using the eBay standard envelope postage, probably for >100 sales at this point and it has worked great. It's actually great for both sellers and buyers for low-cost cards and I have not had any buyers note either slow shipping or card damage so far.

Jeff

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by jh691626

Agree with Rick, we have been putting a card (or several) in a sleeve and holder, taping it to folded piece of paper, and using the eBay standard envelope postage, probably for >100 sales at this point and it has worked great. It's actually great for both sellers and buyers for low-cost cards and I have not had any buyers note either slow shipping or card damage so far.

Jeff

But you wouldn't ship it in just the sleeve without the (presumably toploader) holder, right?

[jh691626]

Originally Posted by ASF123

But you wouldn't ship it in just the sleeve without the (presumably toploader) holder, right?

Yes, for sure!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

USPS will only allow a PWE to be 1/4 inch thick. If you put a piece of cardboard in there you are going to exceed that and if so shipping will be charged as a package. I have had to pay postage due many times from a seller who tried to put cardboard in an envelope and mail it with just a stamp.

A PWE is principally used to mail letters, and they are sorted through mechanical feeders. USPS has a special 85 cent stamp you can use to have the PWE hand sorted. My local post office advised that you should also mark the envelope NON MACHINABLE in red on the left side.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Yeah, all of that.
A toploader isn't flexible enough to avoid being non-machinable.

Unless they've changed it, there's a pitfall for that 1/4 inch thing.
if it's 1/4 + it counts as a package. Especially if it isn't flexible.
BUT
If it's under 3/4 and isn't going priority the tracking number given through click and ship isn't allowed.

Fortunately the guy who bought the smallish print I sold worked for the government so he totally understood when I explained the delay and why the package was much stiffer and had a single packing peanut inside.
It cost extra but I just paid it the whole thing was complicated enough.

The postmaster and I had a nice discussion about the conflicting regs, and how I'd seen clerks offer the unavailable delivery confirmation on first class flats over the counter. His biggest concern was that whoever made my package be returned for postage had used a rate that had been obsolete for about a year!

[tschock]

Originally Posted by steve B

Yeah, all of that.
A toploader isn't flexible enough to avoid being non-machinable.

I don't think that is true. I've mailed literally hundreds of envelopes with a card (or 2 or 3) in top loaders inside a PWE. I tape the holder to a folded sheet of paper inside the envelope. I also put a piece of packaging tape, wrapped around both ends of the top of the envelope, to avoid the envelope flap catching in the machine. All for a single forever stamp. I've never had anyone come back to me and say they were charged for additional postage (but I deal with great traders so who knows what they aren't telling me ). I've also not had envelopes get destroyed, or if so, no more so than padded envelopes.

That doesn't mean I should NOT do this though. Just that they do seem to be flexible enough to go through when packaged appropriately.

To follow on to another point you made. If you don't like what an PO employee is telling you, ask a different one. They might even tell you how to send a small box of cards using a flat rate envelope.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by tschock

I don't think that is true. I've mailed literally hundreds of envelopes with a card (or 2 or 3) in top loaders inside a PWE. I tape the holder to a folded sheet of paper inside the envelope. I also put a piece of packaging tape, wrapped around both ends of the top of the envelope, to avoid the envelope flap catching in the machine. All for a single forever stamp. I've never had anyone come back to me and say they were charged for additional postage (but I deal with great traders so who knows what they aren't telling me ). I've also not had envelopes get destroyed, or if so, no more so than padded envelopes.

That doesn't mean I should NOT do this though. Just that they do seem to be flexible enough to go through when packaged appropriately.

To follow on to another point you made. If you don't like what an PO employee is telling you, ask a different one. They might even tell you how to send a small box of cards using a flat rate envelope.

Being able to use a rigid TL in a PWE with a forever stamp must vary from USPS branch to branch. If I mail a PWE with a TL with just a forever stamp in my local zipcode, it is as good as returned to me the next day having never left town....CS2 or CS1 seem to be fine with my local branch. Now I have no issues receiving PWE with TLs, just sending them.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Being able to use a rigid TL in a PWE with a forever stamp must vary from USPS branch to branch.

Larry,

That is very likely true. Just like the interpretations of the regulations seem to vary from one PO or PO worker to another. I was noting that the machines could physically process them.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tschock

I don't think that is true. I've mailed literally hundreds of envelopes with a card (or 2 or 3) in top loaders inside a PWE. I tape the holder to a folded sheet of paper inside the envelope. I also put a piece of packaging tape, wrapped around both ends of the top of the envelope, to avoid the envelope flap catching in the machine. All for a single forever stamp. I've never had anyone come back to me and say they were charged for additional postage (but I deal with great traders so who knows what they aren't telling me ). I've also not had envelopes get destroyed, or if so, no more so than padded envelopes.

That doesn't mean I should NOT do this though. Just that they do seem to be flexible enough to go through when packaged appropriately.

To follow on to another point you made. If you don't like what an PO employee is telling you, ask a different one. They might even tell you how to send a small box of cards using a flat rate envelope.

I went looking for the page, and it looks like they removed the requirements on flexibility.
The piece I had was a photo mailer, about 6x9, with a print and two cardboard stiffeners. It was not at all flexible. The old rule for flats (Now large envelopes) required something like more than 1/4 inch of droop when it was held by one end over hanging a countertop.
For letters it was a certain radius it had to go around in the machine. I always sent cards in either a toploader or sleeved and between two pieces of cardboard. And yes, small lots up to about 400 cards went in small flat rate boxes. (And later when they got expensive, a small flat rate box inside a flat rate envelope. Doable with the smallest flat rate box )

That particular bit of mail I did discuss with a clerk first, who basically said my printouts of the appropriate page from the Domestic Mail Manual (The post offices rule book) didn't matter.
The guy I ended up talking to was the postmaster for the entire city, so not much room to ask to see someone else.
He had his own printout of a different section.
Mine was the standards for what was and wasn't a package, his was for what made a first class package qualify for delivery confirmation.

Ebays click and ship system at the time automatically added DC to everything, even if it didn't qualify.

I shipped enough odd stuff that I knew the rules pretty well. But those rules have lots of room for interpretation. Like how I used to send larger lots of cards media mail since it allowed "unbound printed matter" After a couple years the main office opened one and told me I couldn't do that anymore. My argument that cards qualified as educational materials was not agreed with...