OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sounds...

[the 'stache]

I searched to see if this idea had been done on Net 54 before, figuring that everything sports (or, more specifically, baseball) related has been discussed at one time or another. While the Mt. Rushmore of baseball, and baseball cards, immediately popped up, imagine my surprise when I did not find this particular idea expanded to all sports.

So, here's my question to you fine folks of Net 54: who would you put on your personal Mt. Rushmore to represent the very best of sports? This does not necessarily mean the greatest player in any particular sport, but men (or women) that achieved excellence in their sport, either as a player, or a coach (or, maybe both). Maybe these men and women never stepped on a field, but changed their sport (and their country) for the better with their vision. There are many ways we can take this. If baseball is in your blood, to the exclusion of all sports, you can choose four legends associated with the diamond. But, if you're like me, even though baseball will always be my first love, I am an enthusiastic fan of several sports. Including all sports in the selection process makes it infinitely more difficult, in my opinion, to choose only four. You can include professionals, as well as those that achieved their fame in the college ranks. Maybe a broadcaster, or a sports journalist might make your list. Do you make this a list of excellence from a performance standpoint, or do you choose men and women who led by example. Many great men and women have roamed the sidelines, their names synonymous with the word class. There have also been athletes who have made great sacrifices.

This should be a very interesting discussion. When you select the four people you would honor, tell me why you choose them above the others you might have considered. Just have fun, and remember, there is no right or wrong answer.

[iwantitiwinit]

Eddie Lee Whitson, Kei Igawa, Carl Pavano, Hideki Irabu

They got PAID!!!!

[EvilKing00]

ruth, gretzky, Jordan, Payton Manning

The first 3 were easy, the best ever in their sports, no one will ever be better.

As for football, that was hard. not easy to pick the best from so many diff positions. Manning / Montana / Elway / marino / rice / taylor / munoz / there are so many diff players in so many diff eras, but I think when its all said and done mannings numbers will be the ones that look the most mount rushmoric.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

ruth, gretzky, Jordan, Payton Manning

The first 3 were easy, the best ever in their sports, no one will ever be better.

As for football, that was hard. not easy to pick the best from so many diff positions. Manning / Montana / Elway / marino / rice / taylor / munoz / there are so many diff players in so many diff eras, but I think when its all said and done mannings numbers will be the ones that look the most mount rushmoric.

Did you ever hear of a guy named Brady?

[bnorth]

Ted Williams, Earvin Johnson, Muhammad Ali, Emmitt Smith

I picked those 4 because Ted is the best player to ever play baseball and the other 3 are all-time greats and my favorite players in their sport that I watched growing up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ruth, Ali, Pele, Jordan.

[jbhofmann]

Babe Ruth- mythical
Usain Bolt- 9.58 and 19.19 in the 100M/200M may never be broken...we may look back and realize that he pushed the human body to its absolute limits. All this and he never really competed in his "best" event, the 400M.
Tiger Woods- I know about Jack and his 18 majors, but this guy made golf what it is today. The sheer number of guys that are threats every single week on the tour is a direct result of Tiger's influence on the game. His dominance and ability to just embarrass fields is unreal.
Michael Jordan- I'm a Lebron guy. I think Lebron is a better "player". He understands the game better, plays more positions, defends more guys, and went many years without the cast that Michael had. That being said, Jordan is a juggernaut. The legacy that he will leave on athletic footwear alone may be enough to put him on this mountain.

[chipperhank44]

Ruth, Thorpe, Jordan, Pele

[gawaintheknight]

You absolutely have to have Jackie Robinson. After that we can argue.

[sandmountainslim]

[jcarlylep]

Babe Ruth, Jim Thorpe, Bobby Jones, George Vezina Pre-World War II

Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Jim Brown, Ted Williams Post-World War II

[KCRfan1]

Great topic Bill!

My four are, in no particular order: Jackie Robinson, Oscar Robertson, Jim Thorpe, and Gordie Howe.

Each player stands on their own merit, and has their place in history in their respective sport.

Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in MLB.

Oscar Robertson is the only player in the NBA to average a triple double for a season, and has a trophy named after him given to the top college player by the US Basketball Writers Association.

Jim Thorpe has been recognized as the greatest athlete of the 20th Century. He won 2 gold medals in the olympics ( pentathlon and decathlon ) and played professional football, baseball, and basketball.

Gordie Howe is the " Babe Ruth " of hockey.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Did you ever hear of a guy named Brady?

lol brady is a great player, on many great teams with probably the best or top 3 best coach ever. Manning put up numbers on some bad teams overall, the guy I think is the best QB ever - its too bad he didn't have a better team around him. And im a giant fan

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

lol brady is a great player, on many great teams with probably the best or top 3 best coach ever. Manning put up numbers on some bad teams overall, the guy I think is the best QB ever - its too bad he didn't have a better team around him. And im a giant fan

Coach!? I don't think you've heard of Brady...


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

lol brady is a great player, on many great teams with probably the best or top 3 best coach ever. Manning put up numbers on some bad teams overall, the guy I think is the best QB ever - its too bad he didn't have a better team around him. And im a giant fan

Nine one and dones. There is really nothing to discuss.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013...ne-dones-fault

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

ruth, gretzky, Jordan, Payton Manning

The first 3 were easy, the best ever in their sports, no one will ever be better.

As for football, that was hard. not easy to pick the best from so many diff positions. Manning / Montana / Elway / marino / rice / taylor / munoz / there are so many diff players in so many diff eras, but I think when its all said and done mannings numbers will be the ones that look the most mount rushmoric.

If you're looking purely at statistics for football, nobody has ever dominated the game like Don Hutson. He played 11 years, led the league in catches eight times, in yards receiving seven times, in touchdown catches nine times. He led the league in all three categories at once five times. The record of 99 receiving touchdowns he scored stood for 44 years until Steve Largent broke it in 1989. Hutson scored 99 times in 116 games. It took Largent 198 games to score 100. Don Hutson was the Babe Ruth of the NFL. Besides catching 488 passes for 7,991 yards and 99 TD, Hutson ran for 284 yards and 3 TD, kicked 172 extra points, 7 field goals, and intercepted 30 passes for 389 yards and a TD. He was first team All Pro each of his last eight seasons!

Cold Hard Football Facts nicely summarizes why Hutson, not Rice, is the best receiver to ever play the game.

[packs]

I would argue Jim Brown was much more dominant than just about anyone at any single sport with the exception of perhaps Babe Ruth.

[Sean]

I'm limiting my picks to team sports, and American sports, so no Pele:

Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan (easy choices), and Jerry Rice.

[jbhofmann]

Originally Posted by packs

I would argue Jim Brown was much more dominant than just about anyone at any single sport with the exception of perhaps Babe Ruth.

Tiger from 2000-2008?

However, Dick Schaap once called Brown the greatest Lacrosse player ever too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I would argue Jim Brown was much more dominant than just about anyone at any single sport with the exception of perhaps Babe Ruth.

8 titles in 9 years, and I believe he still is the all time leader in yards per carry.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Bonds... A Roid... Lance Armstrong... Rosie Ruiz....on the backside of Rushmore...

[Bruinsfan94]

Ruth, Jordan, Brady,Gretzky .

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If you're looking purely at statistics for football, nobody has ever dominated the game like Don Hutson. He played 11 years, led the league in catches eight times, in yards receiving seven times, in touchdown catches nine times. He led the league in all three categories at once five times. The record of 99 receiving touchdowns he scored stood for 44 years until Steve Largent broke it in 1989. Hutson scored 99 times in 116 games. It took Largent 198 games to score 100. Don Hutson was the Babe Ruth of the NFL. Besides catching 488 passes for 7,991 yards and 99 TD, Hutson ran for 284 yards and 3 TD, kicked 172 extra points, 7 field goals, and intercepted 30 passes for 389 yards and a TD. He was first team All Pro each of his last eight seasons!

Cold Hard Football Facts nicely summarizes why Hutson, not Rice, is the best receiver to ever play the game.

looking at manning I saw and still see a guy who not only is a grate player but makes his whole team that much better. If im not mistaken the season he was out with injury his team that finished 10-6 previous season, went 2-10 without him then when he came back went 11-5.

A quick comparison to bradyin 2008 they went 11-5 with brady out for the season and mat cassell in at QB. That team was solid and with a great coach. Manning was the whole team more often than not

[bbcard1]

If you don't start with Ruth/Jordan, you're just being argumentative. I think I would fill out with Thorpe and then probably Jackie Robinson. I have some reservations about Jackie as he is clearly not among the greatest athletes, but is one of the most influential people in American history...and often gets less than his due because he was an athlete.

Others I strongly considered:

Billie Jean King
Wayne Gretzky
Jim Brown
Richard Petty
Vince Lombari / Bear Bryant
Mark Spitz

[Rookiemonster]

Polar bear I did not ignore the pitching I just countered it with the fact he could not field or run bases . Making less of player in right field . The stats of what people made does not show what people really did . And that was go to work for there family because baseball was not considered a job . Or there was a family business that had to go in to . Most people did not allow there son to grow up and play baseball ( Lou Gehrig ) ( joe DiMaggio) were all told not to play imagine is the listened . And imagine how many did or didn't have a chos. After war world one there was a way lower population in America . There was not this a big pool of people to choose from . It came down to men that took it upon them self to play just a example let says you have to fill you teams out of a pool of guys that were just the guys that decided that had nothing better to do . Or in the 50s with a booming population of white , black , Spanish to choose from . And I'm sure little league teams were a lot better at bringing up kid to play ball . Mays would have most beat the HR if it wasn't for the Korean War . Then if you put him in Yankee stadium who know what he could have done . Yankee stadium was made for Ruth to hit home runs out of . And polar bear it's not arugeing it's a debate . And most players had to get a job in the off season lol wasn't the 1919 black sox incident caused the low pay ?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

looking at manning I saw and still see a guy who not only is a grate player but makes his whole team that much better. If im not mistaken the season he was out with injury his team that finished 10-6 previous season, went 2-10 without him then when he came back went 11-5.

A quick comparison to bradyin 2008 they went 11-5 with brady out for the season and mat cassell in at QB. That team was solid and with a great coach. Manning was the whole team more often than not

I'm not saying that Manning wasn't a great quarterback. Far from it. I would be hard pressed to come up with a top 5 list of all-time quarterbacks, and not have him in it. But one thing needs to be kept in mind about Manning. He played at least half of his games indoors, every year. From 1998-2001, he played at least 8 games at the RCA Dome. From 2002-2010, he played at least 9 of his 16 games every year indoors (with an away game at Houston every season). That was a huge advantage as far as passing statistics are concerned. No wind. No precipitation whatsoever. No cold hands to drop passes. He played a majority of his games in a climate controlled dome. Now, these numbers aren't exactly indicative of his home/road splits while in Indianapolis (because he's now played a few seasons at Denver), but his career QB rating at home is 100.6, and it's 93.4 on the road. Still excellent in both places, and his 96.9 QB rating is the third highest of all-time. But he clearly benefited from playing in perfect conditions. Compare his numbers to those of Aaron Rodgers. Yes, the rules have changed even more in favor of offense in recent years-that's why it's hard, in my humble opinion, to compare great passers from different eras. But if you look at what Rodgers has done in Green Bay, it's mind boggling. He has a 106.3 career QB rating, and he will usually play 3 games each year indoors (Detroit, Minnesota, and at least one non-divisional opponent like Atlanta, or St. Louis). But his career QB rating--away from Lambeau, which is supposed to be this huge advantage, is 100.2. He has thrown 108 TD passes and only 35 INTs. If you took away all of his home game statistics, and took only his numbers from the road, he'd still be the highest rated QB in NFL history.

Why am I gushing about Rodgers? I'm trying to reinforce how hard it is to extrapolate a few numbers, and pick "the best" in any sport, especially football where there are only 16 games a season. Do I think Rodgers is the best passer in NFL history? It's hard to say, though he belongs in the conversation, as is a first ballot Hall of Famer if he retired today. But do I look at the career passer rating list, and say that Dan Marino is the 19th best quarterback to ever play the game? Is Joe Montana 10th best? Bart Starr is tied for 56th, and Johnny Unitas 77th best.

While Manning has put up some huge numbers, I think the guys I just named, had they played in today's NFL, would have put up the same eye popping numbers, if not better.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Manning was the whole team more often than not

Wait, I missed this before. Manning was the whole team more often than not??

Between 1999 and 2005, Manning had one of the dominant running backs in the NFL in the back in Edgerrin James. James ran for 1,553 yards in 1999, 1,709 yards in 2000 (leading the NFL both seasons), 1,259 yards in 2003, 1,548 yards in 2004, and 1,506 yards in 2005. He ran for 9,226 yards and 64 touchdowns in seven seasons, and would have easily cracked 10k yards if he had not missed 12 games in 2001 and 2002. He's probably a Hall of Famer, with 12,246 yards rushing, 80 TDs, 3,364 yards receiving and 11 TD.

Then there were his receivers. He had Marvin Harrison, a future Hall of Famer, for nearly his entire time in Indy. Between 1998 and 2008, Harrison caught 965 passes for 12,878 yards and 114 TD catches. Harrison made the Pro Bowl eight times, and was first team NFL All-Pro three times. And, starting in 2001, he also had Reggie Wayne. From 2004-2010, Wayne was a superstar for Manning, too. From 2001-2010, Wayne caught 787 passes for 10,748 yards and 69 TD. The duo combined for 2,172 receptions, 28,925 yards and 208 TD catches. Between them, they made 14 Pro Bowls, and were 4 times NFL All-Pro. Three Hall of Famers Manning had on offense with him for the vast majority of his career.

How many Hall of Famers were on offense for Brett Favre? Any? Sterling Sharpe would have been, but he was forced to retire in 1994, Favre's third season. He had some really good players-Robert Brooks had a huge season, and a second 1,000 yard season after blowing out his knee. Antonio Freeman made a Pro Bowl, and had a few 1,000 yard seasons. He had Donald Driver for the second half of his career. None of those guys are going to Canton. What about running backs? The best he had was Ahman Green, who became a star in Favre's ninth season. Before that, he had Edgar Bennett and a couple of good seasons from Dorsey Levens (one Pro Bowl appearance). None of these guys are all timers. Yet Favre won three MVP Awards, won a Super Bowl for the Packers, and broke most every passing record. Did Manning do more to make his team better than Favre? Food for thought.

[uniship]

Ruth
jordan
gretzky
tiger
ali

[rats60]

Babe Ruth
Michael Jordan
Johnny Unitas
Muhammad Ali

The first two are pretty obvious. Johnny U and the 58 nfl championship game was the transcendent event in football's rise to the #1 sport. Ali is the one athlete who transcends beyond sport itself.

[TUM301]

Ruth, Ali, Jordan, Jesse Owens.

[granite75]

Ruth, Jordan, Brady, Gretzky

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[bbsports]

Babe Ruth, Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Thorpe, & Vince Lombardi. The football choice is the toughest one, so I went with the greatest coach in the game. There were so many great players. Jim Thorpe was I feel overall the greatest athlete. Ruth & Chamberlain changed the game in their sports. Honorable mention to Bobby Orr, Ali, & Jordan. They are great players that changed their sport as well.

[jason.1969]

How about Greg Brock, Todd Van Poppel, Ben McDonald, and Brien Taylor?

Get it? We're carving busts of athletes into a mountain. Busts!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

How about Greg Brock, Todd Van Poppel, Ben McDonald, and Brien Taylor?

Get it? We're carving busts of athletes into a mountain. Busts!

Then you missed Mark Lewis. I still have a stack of his cards.

[Rookiemonster]

Ruth did not face any good pitchers he face the same guys over and over . The only pitcher he faced was lefty grove . The pitchers he face were worn down over worked and were not the best of the best . Because it was only whites in baseball .

Mays faced the best pitchers of all time Koufax , Gibson , Spahn , drysdale Etc
He played in the polo grounds . , seal stadium , candlestick the biggest and windiest park in the majors you can't say Ruth would have any better success . He faced racism . He have prime years to the Koreanwar efforts . Ruth could not field even a quarter the mays could . Run or steal bases I don't think there is any argument there that mays was the man . Bottom line mays was the best there was . Or at very least nothing to laugh at .

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Ruth did not face any good pitchers he face the same guys over and over . The only pitcher he faced was lefty grove . The pitchers he face were worn down over worked and were not the best of the best . Because it was only whites in baseball .

Mays faced the best pitchers of all time Koufax , Gibson , Spahn , drysdale Etc
He played in the polo grounds . , seal stadium , candlestick the biggest and windiest park in the majors you can't say Ruth would have any better success . He faced racism . He have prime years to the Koreanwar efforts . Ruth could not field even a quarter the mays could . Run or steal bases I don't think there is any argument there that mays was the man . Bottom line mays was the best there was . Or at very least nothing to laugh at .

These are great points. As freakish as the Babe's numbers were and as genuine as his talent was, I have to imagine Mays would have dominated that same era even more.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Ruth did not face any good pitchers he face the same guys over and over . The only pitcher he faced was lefty grove . The pitchers he face were worn down over worked and were not the best of the best . Because it was only whites in baseball .

Mays faced the best pitchers of all time Koufax , Gibson , Spahn , drysdale Etc
He played in the polo grounds . , seal stadium , candlestick the biggest and windiest park in the majors you can't say Ruth would have any better success . He faced racism . He have prime years to the Koreanwar efforts . Ruth could not field even a quarter the mays could . Run or steal bases I don't think there is any argument there that mays was the man . Bottom line mays was the best there was . Or at very least nothing to laugh at .

It's pointless to compare player eras. The best argument you have with that is Mays would have been as good a hitter as Ruth in the 1920's or Ruth would have lost 50 batting average points and 100 home runs playing in the 50's. Doubtful on both counts. (and by the way, you conveniently left out the fact that Ruth faced Johnson, the BEST pitcher in MLB history).

Was Mays faster than Ruth? I'm sure he was. How much did that really matter though. Not much. Mays had 338 stolen bases, 120th place on the career list, right ahead of Joe Tinker. Mays wasn't exactly a superstar threat on the base paths.

However, you're forgetting my main point about Ruth. Like I said, when Mays coughs up 100 wins as an MLB pitcher, we can discuss how he's a better overall player than Ruth.

I'm not saying Mays wasn't a great player, even a top tier HOFer. I'm just saying that Mays, or anyone else, can't come close to Ruth as the best overall player in MLB history. Ruth was good at everything, not just chasing down fly balls in the outfield.

[Touch'EmAll]

Babe Ruth - was the best at what he did, hit home runs
Nolan Ryan - was the best at what he did, throw fastest and strikeouts
Satchel Paige - My wild card, who really knows the wonders of Paige
Michael Phelps - was the best at what he did - win Olympic Gold

[Rookiemonster]

Ruth was not good at running bases or fielding if there was a gold glove award he would not have won 1 . Walter Johnson was already 31 years old in 1919 . And it is not pointless to compare eras . He only played against whites and it wasn't even the best white players because most didn't want to play ball because there was no money to be made . I think mays in the 20s in Yankee stadium would have Put the most ridiculous numbers ever . Even if mays was not the best he sure was close as we will ever get .

[robw1959]

Here's an interesting fact: In a span of 25 years, modern statisticians measured the distance of every MLB home run and discovered that there was only one instance in which a batter hit a homer that traveled 500 feet. In 1920, the first year that Ruth became a full-time batter for the Yanks, he hit a 500+ foot home run in EVERY single ball park he played in! There never has been and never will be another batter with more power than Ruth.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

How about Greg Brock, Todd Van Poppel, Ben McDonald, and Brien Taylor?

Get it? We're carving busts of athletes into a mountain. Busts!

You forgot The Boz

[jason.1969]

One approach is to honor great players who were also great people. If I were taking my son to Mt Sportsmore, I'd want to be able to tell stories that showcased character rather than just athletic talent. Some candidates--

Jackie Robinson - racial justice
Roberto Clemente - humanitarian
LeBron James - sending thousands of kids to college and funding GEDs for their parents
Bob Feller - First to enlist after Pearl Harbor
Muhammad Ali - Protested unjust war

I would rather my son see these guys as heroes than Jordan or Brady, guys I see who used their fame and wealth to buy toys and feed their egos.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

One approach is to honor great players who were also great people. If I were taking my son to Mt Sportsmore, I'd want to be able to tell stories that showcased character rather than just athletic talent. Some candidates--

Jackie Robinson - racial justice
Roberto Clemente - humanitarian
LeBron James - sending thousands of kids to college and funding GEDs for their parents
Bob Feller - First to enlist after Pearl Harbor
Muhammad Ali - Protested unjust war

I would rather my son see these guys as heroes than Jordan or Brady, guys I see who used their fame and wealth to buy toys and feed their egos.

I didn't know that about LeBron. I don't think of him as a candidate for "best ever" but that he funds college and GEDs does change my overall opinion of him.

Steve B

[jason.1969]

Hard to agree that Jackie was not one of the greatest athletes. I assume the statement is based solely on his MLB stats. I think he was arguably at the ELITE level in football, basketball, track, baseball, and even tennis. He was probably the most gifted athlete of the 20th century. Keep in mind that he wasn't able to make his MLB debut until the age of 28 for reasons well beyond his control.

[jason.1969]

One thing that puzzles me about Ruth...I think it was in my 1955 Sports Illustrated with Alston on the cover that a bunch of old baseball men were asked to name the best baseball player ever. I remember Cobb chose Wagner, as did a couple other guys. A few guys chose Cobb. And I think only one guy chose Ruth.

I suppose you could argue these guys were purists who thought the home run ruined baseball, but it did make me wonder.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

One thing that puzzles me about Ruth...I think it was in my 1955 Sports Illustrated with Alston on the cover that a bunch of old baseball men were asked to name the best baseball player ever. I remember Cobb chose Wagner, as did a couple other guys. A few guys chose Cobb. And I think only one guy chose Ruth.

I suppose you could argue these guys were purists who thought the home run ruined baseball, but it did make me wonder.

Or maybe because they were all better overall players than Ruth except in the HR/power dept and pitching category.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Or maybe because they were all better overall players than Ruth except in the HR/power dept and pitching category.


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Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play? Oh and he only hit .342. And led the league in walks nearly every year.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play? Oh and he only hit .342.

Oh so sorry, guess I should have made it clearer he can hit.


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[jason.1969]

In chaos theory, we would say the dynamical system that is this thread has made its way toward the two attractors of "Manning v Brady" and "Ruth v Mays." We could come back in 30 more posts and see the same debates in their same unresolved states...or just recognize that ALL these folks already have a HOF to enshrine their legacies. So if we're building an alternate shrine, how about Rose, Shoeless Joe, Bonds, and Clemens?

[jason.1969]

Here's a headline of the future:

"Billionaire sports fan creates Mt Rushmore of sports greats; Jordan sues over use of his likeness."