Provenance of a Vintage Card - Share another Story

[frankbmd]

A T206 card caught my eye recently and began to tell me its story. I dug a little deeper and asked a few questions. The ownership thread of this card, I’m convinced, has been established. Provenance was the motivation for my purchase of the Rube Waddell portrait version of his T206 card. The card’s back has three features that are the key to establishing the history of this card:

A stamp with the name Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Gordon Soutter.

Nelson Tisdel stamps have been seen on more than a few T206 cards. Nelson was born around the turn of the century growing up in Missouri and was a young teenager when the T206 cards were produced. Other examples of Tisdel stamped T206 cards exist and some of them have been signed by him as well. I was unable to determine whether he was smoking in 1910 or whether he got the cards from his father, probably the latter as he was quite bright.

In 1920 he is pictured on the Phi Beta Kappa page of the University of Missouri yearbook (see below), where he received an AB degree. In 1922 he earned a MBA from Harvard and has a thesis recorded on “Capitalization” in the Harvard archives. In 1925 he was married and in 1933 he fathered a son Donald in 1933.

Donald Tisdel was a boyhood friend of Gordon Soutter and before 1945 Donald had received some of his father Nelson’s T206 cards including the Waddell card. A trade was made between the boys and the new owner thought it appropriate to sign the card as well to document the transfer of ownership. This trade was completed before Waddell’s election to the Hall of Fame in 1946, a good deal for Gordon one would think.

Donald passed away in 1981, but Gordon is still living with his wife, who recently listed the card on Ebay. I was curious to know if the seller was or knew Gordon Soutter. Mrs. Soutter was kind enough to confirm that Gordon was her husband and he confirmed the trading of cards with Donald.

Some research on Nelson Tisdel was hijacked from Tim Fritz on this board from a prior post on back stamps about a year ago. I was able to confirm the sites he found, basically the yearbook and wedding date. I was able to confirm Donald birth date from an obituary, and Nelson’s dissertation info from the Harvard Archives. Gordon and his wife confirmed the trade and the fact that he was the owner of the card from 1945 until today. Gordon’s Facebook page is consistent both in terms of his age and location, which is the same town from which they sent me the card, Bountiful, Utah.

I feel confident with this information and the fact that I am the first person to actually purchase this 100 + year old card, apart from the original cigarette purchase by young Nelson or his father. Like Mr. Fritz this card will occupy a special place in my collection with this provenance. What is the card worth (recent thread)? I have no idea, Leon, as I bought it with my heart and not my brain. Hopefully none of our experts will question the authenticity of the signatures. I only regret that I will not be able to keep it for 67 years like the prior owner, unless I find the Fountain of Youth. Perhaps someone will be able to purchase it in the future from one of my sons, who currently could care less about my collection.

A poor copy of the Tisdel Yearbook photo (Tisdel, upper right) is included as well as the text of Tim’s original post.

Other stories of provenance of vintage items hopefully will keep this thread alive. I think it would be worthwhile and interesting. Each card has its own story, if only more of them would talk.

Text for the 1920 U of Missouri Yearbook Page Photo:

SAVITAR
PHI BETA KAPPA
FOUNDED WILLIAM AND MARY COLLEGE DECEMBER 8, 1776
ALPHA OF MISSOURI CHAPTER FOUNDED 1901
FREDERICK M TISUEL PRESIDENT - ???? SECRETARY - GEORGE LEFEVRE VICE-PRESIDENT
CORWIN D EDWARDS (upper left), NELSON C TISDEL (upper right), ADA E BRAINARD (center), DWIGHT DONAN (lower left), BEN S ELY (lower right)

Sorry for the poor image

Fritz: original Tisdel post

I also have a T206 (Bender with trees) that has the Nelson Tisdel stamp on the back. Mine also has his sig on the back border and had been glued, but still had the backing on it. Got that off and was at first disappointed to find the stamp, but then googled the name.

Some info I found was someone with the same name came to the US with his family in the early 1900s (1906/7? - I've lost the geneaology web site link) and grew up in Missouri. Graduated from the University of Missouri in 1920 and married in 1925. Got most of that from a few google searches. There's a site that has his 1920 yearbook with class picture.

It's now my favorite T206 card. I picture a kid just coming to the US, learning about baseball and collecting T206 cards. I've seen others on ebay for sale over the years. I thought it was kinda fun to put a story together to go with the stamp. Might not be the same kid, but I'd rather not ruin my mind's picture of the story.

[soxinseven]

Great story! Congrats on a beautiful card with a great deal of provenance....

[CW]

Nice card with a GREAT story behind it! I can see why it's now your favorite T206. The true collector value of that card transcends the monetary value. I'm sure many of us have wondered about the path a certain card may have taken on its way to our collection, but it's rare that we ever learn the story. It's very cool to see that at least one collector was able to figure it all out.

[mrvster]

The Great Gatsby!!

I always wanted one.....and now i have it.....

[T3s]

Hi Frank,

Thanks very much for your post. Really a pleasure to read and certainly interesting. Your efforts were worth it, right?

As another example, several months ago I was lucky enough to have a beautiful T3 Turkey Red find (search older posts). A few of the cards have writing on the back. A handful note "Reid Pleasant Drug" across the top. My assumption is that was a local drug store - several ways the cards could be attached to the store.

Best of all, one of the cards carries the signature of "Elias Beasley". Mr. Beasley was the original collector as a very young man. I purchased the cards from Mr. Beasley's grandson. During our negotiations for the cards, we talked a fair amount about the family and the story about how the cards were kept, owned, etc. I was very interested and wanted to find a way to preserve the collection (before some headed out to all corners of the earth) and document the provenance.

I went online to Walmart.com (not a plug) and created a beautiful photo book. Full color, full-sized scans of every card with brief commentary on each page, additional pictures and information on the set itself and it's provenance. Bound in black leather, about 50 pages, back and front on glossy paper. My point being that it is very classy looking and just as important, it was cheap! Provenance and original collection preserved.

I gave the seller two copies, one for each of his sons, and kept one for myself.

If anyone comes across a find of any size, I think it would be cool (and important) to document it as well as possible. Years from now, there will be collectors even more fanatic than we are who be thrilled to find this information.

Happy Collecting,
Craig Diamond

[frankbmd]

Thanks Craig, other stories like yours is what I was hoping to see. I asked my seller if they had more Tisdel cards, but the only response I got was "We only sell on Ebay, keep watching our auctions." At least I tried.

Thanks for your album idea.

[T206Collector]

I recently soaked a T206 card to remove a scrapbook scrap, and voila.... Nelson Tisdel's stamp was hiding underneath. Card was sold, but still think it was a neat discovery.

[Leon]

Here is an interesting thread if you want to read about my Trucker Boy find and a few other guys finds....

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=trucker+boy





.

[rp12367]

Originally Posted by T3s

Hi Frank,

Thanks very much for your post. Really a pleasure to read and certainly interesting. Your efforts were worth it, right?

As another example, several months ago I was lucky enough to have a beautiful T3 Turkey Red find (search older posts). A few of the cards have writing on the back. A handful note "Reid Pleasant Drug" across the top. My assumption is that was a local drug store - several ways the cards could be attached to the store.

Best of all, one of the cards carries the signature of "Elias Beasley". Mr. Beasley was the original collector as a very young man. I purchased the cards from Mr. Beasley's grandson. During our negotiations for the cards, we talked a fair amount about the family and the story about how the cards were kept, owned, etc. I was very interested and wanted to find a way to preserve the collection (before some headed out to all corners of the earth) and document the provenance.

I went online to Walmart.com (not a plug) and created a beautiful photo book. Full color, full-sized scans of every card with brief commentary on each page, additional pictures and information on the set itself and it's provenance. Bound in black leather, about 50 pages, back and front on glossy paper. My point being that it is very classy looking and just as important, it was cheap! Provenance and original collection preserved.

I gave the seller two copies, one for each of his sons, and kept one for myself.

If anyone comes across a find of any size, I think it would be cool (and important) to document it as well as possible. Years from now, there will be collectors even more fanatic than we are who be thrilled to find this information.

Happy Collecting,
Craig Diamond

Craig, I had a T206 with just Elias on it which makes sense now As soon as I saw the hand writting I knew it was the same. T206's are alot smaller, guess he didnt want to mess up the back to much and squeezed it in, I have since sold the card, but I may still have a scan, I will look and if I do i will post it for you.... Ralph

[ethicsprof]

great story!!!
I have wondered for some time about Elias written on the back of
one of my T206s and am pleased to know the story now, thanks to you.
Like Ralph, mine is just the Elias but is a definite match for the one you provide.
all the best,

barry

[T3s]

Ralph & Barry (and others?),

Very interesting information. Any scan would be great, as I'd really enjoy reaching out to the seller again with this new information about his grandfather. Post them here, or feel free to email me directly at mackeyd@mailcity.com

Best,
Craig

[frankbmd]

Craig,

I'm checking for Elias on my cards, so I can continue to be a part of this thread. Hopefully other stories will follow.

Frank

[Tsaiko]

Of course, my grandmother's collection (www.themaconpeach.com), but I've discussed it before in The Macon Find thread.
Still finding out things about her to add to her site.

Since I never received a reply about the backwards D card (Here: http://www.freewebs.com/thegreatt206...ct/gallery.htm), that I think belonged to my grandmother, I thought I'd try two other stamped back cards that were traded to my grandmother, bearing the initials of someone she probably traded with, to see if anyone recognizes them.

They were on the back of an Old Mill cabinet and a T3. Can anybody identify it? If so, then maybe we can figure out the provenance.
(Hope this isn't too OT)

[Runscott]

Here's a Plank story that I really enjoyed:

Lionel Carter's T206 Plank

[keating3620]

i have diamond stars that my dad collected in 1935 when he was 12. One day my uncle was mad at my dad and took a hole punch to his Luke Appling card. In my world this increased the value since every time I see the holes it makes me laugh.

[sandmountainslim]

I wish someone would solve the mystery of who stamped Purple Stars on their T206 cards

[Matt]

This PC with "Moonlight" (back row 3rd from left) was sent from his manager Hank Ramsey (also in photo) to Bill McCabe. Ramsey & McCabe were founders of the Hudson River League and managed together in the Hudson River League from 1903-1906. In 1907 Ramsey left to coach Scranton and the league folded mid-season.

In 1903, one of the more prominent citizens of Poughkeepsie, New York, was William A. McCabe. McCabe, the Chief of Police and "tenement" investor, had been a professional baseball player with the 1886 Poughkeepsie team in the old Hudson River League, primarily at second base, and had sponsored semi-professional teams in Poughkeepsie since the mid-1890's. McCabe had been acquainted with J. H. Farrell, President of the New York State League and Secretary of the National Association, for many years. In mid-March, McCabe and Farrell called a meeting "for the purpose of forming a league."

Working closely with these men was Henry D. Ramsey, a long-time minor league player and manager, who had been retained by the Kingston stock company as its manager for 1903. On March25 and again on April 1, meetings were held which resulted in forming the Hudson River Baseball League for 1903. Franchises were taken up by Ossining, Newburgh, Hudson and Saugerties, as well as Kingston and Poughkeepsie. Elected President was McCabe, Secretary was Ramsay, and Treasurer was Col. H. D. Claflin of Saugerties. Application was made to the National Association for the Class C classification; admission was received on May 5.

Ramsey's place in baseball history is for a player with a slightly more accomplished career then Graham (source):

Ramsey was born in 1869 at Paterson and was a manager of various minor league teams during a long and successful baseball career.' It was Ramsey who aided Hans Wagner to attain baseball fame and many critics have credited him with being the real discoverer of the great Honus.
It was said that Hank, as he was familiarly known, gave Wagner's brother, Al. Wagner, a baseball job in Paterson, and he in turn asked for a chance for brother Hans, which was given.

[iggyman]

I have a couple, but my W554 providence "do the cards talk to you(?)" story will always be my favorite:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=w554

Lovely Day...

[mybuddyinc]

We've seen a few "Theo V. Temple" exhibits over the years, but this *may* be his signature:

temple sig.jpg




Once, again, if S. Aff is on-line, I have your card:

sapp.jpg

[Howe’s Hunter]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...howe+mccormick

Now the collection stands at an even 200. Also found out through business records that the address was not only a home, but the address of grocery store owned by McCormick's dad and his business partner, whose last name was Howe.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by StuckInOmaha

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...howe+mccormick

Now the collection stands at an even 200. Also found out through business records that the address was not only a home, but the address of grocery store owned by McCormick's dad and his business partner, whose last name was Howe.

Ed, could it be that the owner of the store stamped them and handed them out as advertising? If they were the kid's, I would expect him just to scribble his name on the back.

[Howe’s Hunter]

Business records from the county say that Howe had a partner named McCormick, but the partners name was not part of the store name.

Also wouldn't explain the one card that has Howe McCormick as an agent for the Saturday Evening Post, with the same address. No, they belonged to the kid named Howe.

[frankbmd]

Same story, same source, but some paper loss and a lot of scrapbook paper on the back ........ yesterday .

With two cards, I now consider myself a Tisdel collector.

[g_vezina_c55]

Nice story Frank .... i love the history of ownership etc behind card.... like many said, the historical value is better than the money value sometime...

I love to own pedigree card or a card with a special owner or history....

When i bought my T206 Plank i had to choose between 2 T206 Plank card. The fact i had the chance to afford the
L. Carter copy of Eddie Plank had a biggg influence in my choice...

nice story Frank ! thanks for sharing.

[T206Collector]

It is comforting to know that Eddie P. has found an appreciative home!

I recently posted about my T201 Leifield auto with Burdick provenance here:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....hlight=Burdick

I really love learning about the travels of our old cardboard over the past century...

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

A stamp with the name Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Gordon Soutter.

A trade was made between the boys and the new owner thought it appropriate to sign the card as well to document the transfer of ownership.

Frank,

I'm curious. Will you now sign the Waddell card as well to document the transfer of ownership?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

Frank,

I'm curious. Will you now sign the Waddell card as well to document the transfer of ownership?

If requested by the next owner, I would happily comply. Rest assured that I will ask.

If this was a common practice, I imagine some of these little cards would be quite crowded with sigs.

[philliesphan]

is owning a card that was once owned by Burdick, who sold the card to Sir Edward Wharton Tigar (in the 1940s)...and a few decades later, it is now in my humble collection

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

If requested by the next owner, I would happily comply. Rest assured that I will ask.

I would think you would want to sign the back to document the transfer of ownership from Gordon Soutter to you.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

I would think you would want to sign the back to document the transfer of ownership from Gordon Soutter to you.

+1

Totally appropriate.

[Exhibitman]

This card has a nice history: Con Dempsey [PCL/MLB player] got it as a kid in SF, gave it to collector Dave Eskenazi. From Dave it went to Mark Macrae, and I got it from Mark at a National.

[z28jd]

I remembered this thread from earlier this year. This is the first one I've seen, stamped and signed. Just listed on ebay(not mine and don't know the seller)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item27ce7198a3

[paul]

Here's my Zeenut Paddy Driscoll. It has what I believe is Buck Barker's writing on the back, documenting his baseball and football careers. Then, at the bottom there is a note that Dick Dobbins acquired the card in 1973 and apparently traded or sold it to someone named Hauser in 1978. At least, that's what I guess the note means.

[cyseymour]

From the personal collection of Billy Sunday. Was auctioned off by his granddaughter in 1973, purchased by Keith Mitchell.



Nice to know that the Rev. also saw a Kelly card as a great personal keepsake.

[frankbmd]

also with the two sigs of Tisdel and Soutter.

[ullmandds]

love that sunday kelly...great card and story!

[Jay Wolt]

Nice Mike Kelly/Billy Sunday

Here's a Mayo that Casey Stengel once owned

[Harliduck]

Bought a few 1954 Topps cards from an elderly person at a recent show, including a nice Warren Spahn. After getting to talking with the gentleman, he informed me he bought these out of packs at a local store in Lower Queen Anne in Seattle near where I live. Neat to know I am only the second owner of 60 year old cards. Not quite the age and coolness of some of these stories, but pretty cool none the less. Really cool to get the details...

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by T3s

Ralph & Barry (and others?),

Very interesting information. Any scan would be great, as I'd really enjoy reaching out to the seller again with this new information about his grandfather. Post them here, or feel free to email me directly at mackeyd@mailcity.com

Best,
Craig

Hi Craig,

I have always wondered who this Elias was and have seen quite a few "Elias" T206s over the past 7 years. Levi/707 Sportscards had a few on his website years ago. He still owns 2 that I saw while searching for some info for you. On one, the Elias has been erased, but the other still has it there. (see scan below). I see them every now & then on Ebay, but most of them look like someone has tried to remove the "Elias" from the back. If my memory serves me correct, most of the "Elias" T206s were Piedmont 350 backs.

Hope this helps you

Jantz

[RCMcKenzie]

t206tisdale.jpg

t206tisdaleb.jpg


Thanks to Corcoran guy for pointing to this one on ebay.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Attachment 84081

Attachment 84082


Thanks to Corcoran guy for pointing to this one on ebay.

I saw this listing but knew there is at least one Tisdel collector so I kept on scrolling, even though I need this card.

[RCMcKenzie]

Mike,

The Griffith only went for $43. I had placed a marker bid of $50 because my ebay watchlist was full and I ended up winning the card.

I mostly look for Buck Barker backs so this Tisdel Griffith will probably end up in an auction in the near future.

There was a Zeenut on ebay yesterday that had a Barker-style write-up on the back that I was about to snipe when my computer froze, probably a good reason to bid earlier.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Mike,

The Griffith only went for $43. I had placed a marker bid of $50 because my ebay watchlist was full and I ended up winning the card.

I mostly look for Buck Barker backs so this Tisdel Griffith will probably end up in an auction in the near future.

There was a Zeenut on ebay yesterday that had a Barker-style write-up on the back that I was about to snipe when my computer froze, probably a good reason to bid earlier.

It IS a nice lookin' card.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Attachment 84081

Attachment 84082


Thanks to Corcoran guy for pointing to this one on ebay.

Nice, I'm known by my quirky collection

I'm just glad you won and Frank didn't. I don't like hoarders and that is what he was trying to do...

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Nice, I'm known by my quirky collection

I'm just glad you won and Frank didn't. I don't like hoarders and that is what he was trying to do...

I just read this entire thread. Does three examples qualify as hoarding?

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I just read this entire thread. Does three examples qualify as hoarding?

I didn't say he was doing a good job, just said he was trying. You gotta cut him off early before the sickness sets in. Don't need to see him get up to, say 35 of them, then it is officially hoarding. 34 is fine though if you stop there

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I didn't say he was doing a good job, just said he was trying. You gotta cut him off early before the sickness sets in. Don't need to see him get up to, say 35 of them, then it is officially hoarding. 34 is fine though if you stop there

Oh I'm sorry, my "tongue in cheek" filter was on. I understand now

[frankbmd]

Ed,

So Howe McCormick played the trombone. Great discovery.

Sifting through the archives of musical history. I have been unable to verify Nelson Tisdel's musical instrument or preference, but I have discovered that Scott Tisdel is the principal cellist for the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra.

http://www.mso.org/about_mso/meet_th...r/scott_tisdel

Certainly the resemblance to Nelson is unquestioned.

Obviously musical talent and a propensity to stamp vintage cards must be located on the same gene. I will try to find out what Scott is stamping these days other than his foot in time with the music.

[Howe’s Hunter]

our son went to Augustana College/Rock Island on a music scholarship. His instrument? Trombone.

[ScottFandango]

nice addition to your growing collection...

have your boys become more interested in your collection since you started this thread a year or so ago?

have they ever been to a card show with you?