T206 backs in scarcity order

[cfc1909]

This list is from my collecting expirience and is very debatable. Also, this is just to obtain one example of each back. If you try to complete a subset you will find several backs much more difficult to complete.

This list will also be different for the six super prints.

1. Old Mill brown
2. Lenox brown
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Drum
5. Uzit
6. Hindu red
7. Lenox black
8. Broad Leaf 350
9. American Beauty 460
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. Hindu brown
13. American Beauty 350 no frame
14. Sovereign 460
15. Cycle 460
16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
17. Tolstoi
18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
19. EPDG
20. American Beauty 350 frame
21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
23. Cycle 350
24. Old Mill south
25. Sovereign 150
26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
28. Old Mill
29. Polar Bear
30. Sovereign 350 series forest green
31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
34. Piedmont 150 factory 25
35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
38. Piedmont 350 factory 25

[Mikehealer]

Hi Jim
Although my experience doesn't compare to yours, my experiences would put
Piedmont fac 42 at #13, Sweet Cap 460 fac 25 at #16, and maybe swap
Sovereign 460 and Cycle 460. Just my opinion.
Thanks again for the list and research.
Mike

[DixieBaseball]

Jim - I noticed the Fact 42 Piedmont slid way down on your list. Interesting... I know there was a thread a few weeks back where dozens of folks were debating if Fact 42 Piedmont fell between #7 or #8 on the toughest backs list. You have it pegged way down to #16 on your list... Obviously know none of this is perfect science, but was curious as to your thoughts on that back. I know you have handled many of these over the last decade.

[cfc1909]

I think this back is overrated but still a difficult back. You can still pick these off ebay if you look hard enough. 10 years ago you could pick up several per week, but as collectors start to hoard these they have become more scarce.

As each collector starts their collection I think the top 8 to 10 and the bottom 8 to 10 will pretty much be the same. All the ones in the middle will have a different ranking depending on what was avalible while you are collecting.

There was a time on ebay when you searched for the more difficult backs, 8 to 10 sometimes even 20 examples would come up and all were a traditional auction. I remember searching for Hindus and 20 auctions were going. Now most of those examples are in collections and not going anywhere.

I know between my 4 or 5 closest collecting friends we have close to 250 Hindus-that is alot of Hindus off the market and makes Hindu much tougher to obtain. Same goes for the backs above Hindu on the list and including Piedmont 42.

There has always been a large number of 206 collectors but now it seems they all also collect the tough backs. In the 90s no one cared about the backs. The goal was to get one of every player crease free. Now The goal is to get every player and at least one example of each advertisement.

Just like I said in my original post this is very debatable. If you took 20 rare back collectors every list would vary. If you started now Piedmont 42 would be higher than 16. I started more than a decade ago and that is where I feel it belongs.

[jp1216]

Jim,
Thanks for the info. The Fact. 42 info is great. Makes sense. (wishing I had started T206s in the 90s....)

[Chicago206]

I like the list as is for the most part. I have a few of my own observations, but with just over 2 months into the hobby, not sure if they are just anomolies. IMO, the blank back needs to be taken down. As a printer's error, it was never intended to be distributed, and therefore isnt really a "variety". I also like the fact that the Cobb was ommited. In fact, about a month ago I printed out the backs list from T206 museum so I could have a checklist of sorts. Before the ink was even dry, I crossed off the Cobb and the Blank back from the list.

[tedzan]

I agree with Jim's list which lowers the scarcity level of this back for most of the T206's from the 350/460 series. The following
data on this page is divided into 3 sections for your complete understanding. It is the result of several surveys over the past 4
years.

Section I

350/460 series (60) cards confirmed with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 back

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow potrait).......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)..........super-print
Chase (dark cap)...............super-print
Cobb (red portrait).............super-print..........DOUBLE PRINT
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky).........super-print
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap).........super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Section II

This survey of PIEDMONT 460/42 backs provides a microcosm of the six major stars in the 350/460 series (the survey was con-
ducted over a 12 month period).
Note that the Red Cobb with a PIEDMONT 460/42 back appears to be a DOUBLE PRINT....relative to the 5 other HOFers


PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 9/17/09


Cobb (red portrait).....15

Cobb (bat).................5

Johnson (pitching)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................7

Matty (dark cap).........7

CYoung (glove)...........7




Section III

The cards in the 460-only series are considerably tougher to find with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back. Only the following 12 cards
from this series of 48 cards have been confirmed.

List of 460-only series cards with PIEDMONT 460/42 cards......

Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Feel free to ask any questions regarding this data.

TED Z

[Potomac Yank]

Jim, when it comes to backs, I listen to what you have to say.

Joe P.

[teetwoohsix]

Thank you Jim!!This is awesome,and just what I've been hoping to see.I think you did a great job on this list,and I will use this for referance.

Thank you for your hard work,and wisdom.

Sincerely,Clayton

[wonkaticket]

1. Lenox brown
2. Old Mill brown
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Uzit
5. Drum
6. Hindu red
7. Lenox black
8. Broad Leaf 350
9. American Beauty 460
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. Hindu brown
13. American Beauty 350 no frame
14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
15. Cycle 460
16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
17. Tolstoi
18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
19. EPDG
20. American Beauty 350 frame
21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
23. Cycle 350
24. Old Mill south
25. Sovereign 150
26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
28. Old Mill
29. Polar Bear
30. Sovereign 350 series forest green
31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
34. Piedmont 150 factory 25
35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
38. Piedmont 350 factory 25


Jimmy,

Great list I'm 99% there with you, I would say that after the recent Drum finds that have come to market. I would say Uzit trumps Drum today. Also I think Brown Lenox is much tougher than Brown Old Mill for what that's worth.

I think today Drum, Lenox (Black) & Red Hindu all fall in the same range....

Cheers,

John

[cfc1909]

I didn't consider the St Louis Drum find that added 41 examples,plus 2 more at the recent Philly show and Hunts 27 probably make Uzit tougher than Drum. 70 Drums in the past few years is enough to change the rankings.

I will have to check how many brown Lenox and brown Old Mills that I know of and rethink this just a bit.

[tedzan]

The only Brown LENOX cards that I know of are Jordan (bat) and Marquard (follow thru).

We know of at least 10 different Southern Leaguer's with Brown OLD MILL backs.


TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
I can think of 2 more off the top of my head.... Cobb and Lajoie with Bat.
I'll check my records for more tonight.
Be well Brian

[E93]

I don't want to raise a ruckous here, but Ty Cobb brand should probably be #3 in the rankings, thus moving everything below it down a notch.

I also have complete trust in Jim's analysis of the relative scarcity of these.
JimB

[DixieBaseball]

Not to raise a further ruckous or derail the thread, where would T213-1 Coupon Back fit into your scarcity order, Jim ? (I just wonder for practical purposes in case at some future point Coupons are recognized as part of the T206 backs)
Thanks,
JJ

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by E93

I don't want to raise a ruckous here, but Ty Cobb brand should probably be #3 in the rankings, thus moving everything below it down a notch.

I also have complete trust in Jim's analysis of the relative scarcity of these.
JimB

With all but 1 or is it 2 Cobb backs displaying a glossy front, and NONE of the other 15 Cigarette companies having ANY glossy fronts, why do you think the Cobb back even belongs on this list at all? Isnt it perfectly clear these cards were produced completely seperate from all other T206's? This card doesnt qualify as a true T206 card IMO.

[tedzan]

1st....In recent times we have established (Macon, GA newspaper advertisement) that this Red Ty Cobb was
printed and issued in 1910. Furthermore, the Senator Russell collection confirms the dating of this card.

2nd....Not all 15 Ty Cobb cards have a glossy front. The very recent one in Bill Goodwin's forthcoming auction
does not have any hint of gloss on its front.

Incidently, I have two regular T206's that have a gloss on their fronts.


TED Z

[E93]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

With all but 1 or is it 2 Cobb backs displaying a glossy front, and NONE of the other 15 Cigarette companies having ANY glossy fronts, why do you think the Cobb back even belongs on this list at all? Isnt it perfectly clear these cards were produced completely seperate from all other T206's? This card doesnt qualify as a true T206 card IMO.

Chicago,
This has been debated extensively here in the past. In a nutshell, "T206" was a designation coined by Burdick (not by the American Tobacco Company in 1909-11) and used in the American Card Catalog to indicate the white border baseball subjects used as fronts for the American Tobacco Company brands advertisements issued from 1909-1911. We know from more than one period newspaper article that Ty Cobb brand was issued by the ATC in 1910. Burdick included it in his book as a T206 brand and it meets his qualifications. Since he coined the taxonomy and defined its parameters, I think it makes perfect sense to go with his evaluation, especially since it still meets his criteria by our knowledge today. Unless one wants to do a complete overhaul of the taxonomy and eliminate American Beauties because of their smaller size, or divide it into sets by brand, or series, or factory, I don't think a partial change to the long established paradigm is advisable. To me, it makes sense to keep the parameters as simple and straightforward as possible. I hope that helps.
JimB

[E93]

Thanks for your comments Ted. I did not see them before writing mine. By the way, I think the appearance of a second example without a glossy front raises interesting questions. From what I hear, the person who consigned one to Goodwin actually found two and is keeping the other. Do you know if the other also does not have a glossy front? If not, that would mean 20% of known examples do NOT have it.
JimB

[tedzan]

I am aware of the 15th Ty Cobb back, but Bill only had one at the show. I compared it closely with a couple of regular Red Cobb's.
The only discernable difference in the fronts was that the Ty Cobb back card had a richer color of red on its front.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

brown lenox examples

cobb-bat off-pretty sure there are 2 examples of this card
lajoie
lake
leach
merkle
jordan
willetts
burch
willis
latham
manning
overall

I think the ranking of 1 & 2 could go either way-I only know of about a dozen examples of each-one thing for sure is there are way less examples of brown old mill and brown lenox then there are of bl 460.

coupon 1 I have not followed long enough to make an accurate ranking but I am pretty sure it would be between 4 to 8-Uzit Drum difficulty maybe just a bit easier-red Hindu -Lenox black

cobb back is like brown old mill and brown lenox with around a dozen examples

[JerryTotino]

Jim,

I did some searching of auction results and also looked at some old net54 threads.

In addition to the Brown Lenox subjects you have already listed you can also add:

Pfeister (Chicago N. L.)
F. Smith (Chicago and Boston)
Cy Young
Chase

There is a good chance there are possibly other subjects and/or more examples of the same subjects already listed.

PS - Even though I agree that the Brown Old Mill is extremely rare I do not think that it should be listed as a standard issue back. Since all the confirmed copies are hand cut this points to this back as never having been officially issued.

Jerry

[cliftons8]

I'm sure these have been shown before, but can someone post a brown and black Lenox and Old Mill side by side to compare.


Also, on the lines of a Coupon Type 1. Would a trade for this and a Red Hindu be equal or would one have more monetary value. Assume both were the same grade of common card.

Thanks,
Mike

[cfc1909]

Brown Old Mill may not have been an issued back but it is on the back of very few t206s and is at the top of the list of most scarce.
There is no question on the top 3 backs and there is a good distance between 1-2 until number 3.
There are about a dozen brown Old Mill and brown Lenox each and there are around 40 Broad Leaf 460s.
Whether they were issued or not, they exist.


Also whoever wants to trade a Red Hindu for a Coupon 1-I have a Coupon 1 to trade you.
Coupon 1 is very tough and I will trade a Coupon 1 for a red Hindu or Lenox black.

[ChiefBenderForever]

If the Lajoie is part of the 33 Goudey set, shouldn't Ty Cobb back be included ? I consider it part of the backs set and it should be !

[Mikehealer]

moved.

[tedzan]

Something to consider......it has been my experience that AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards are a tad tougher than BROAD LEAF 350 cards.

There are only 72 confirmed AB 460 cards, while there at least 150 confirmed BL 350 cards. Therefore, the probability of finding BL 350
cards is somewhat greater than finding AB 460 cards.

Just a suggestion.

Regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

This might should be a new thread, but I was wondering what the experts
thought the toughest 20th century Tobacco issue advertising back is?

Hey Mike
Before we throw this nice thread off track you might want to start a new thread with that question. It's a very interesting and good one. best regards

[teetwoohsix]

Hi Jim-

I was just wondering if you were going to put together the same type of list for the 6 super prints?

Thanks-

Sincerely,Clayton

[cfc1909]

I am pretty sure Ted is working on a list for the six super prints and it should be posted soon and it is different than this one

This list is for the collector that wants to get an example of each 206 back.

it is good you brought that up because they ( the six super prints) are in a class by themselves

[ethicsprof]

Jim R.,
great work!!
now i can finally throw away that old list from the infamous T206 museum site
and replace it with something current and accurate.
i,too, would suggest removing the blank back from the list, moving uzit ahead of drum, and AB460 ahead of broadleaf 350.
top drawer, ole buddy

best,
barry

[JerryTotino]

Jim,

With all due respect you can not assume that only a dozen copies of the Brown Lenox exist. There really has been no detailed analysis of this back type done before. Bill Brown's superset only lists 2 confirmed players. We know that this is obviously not true based on the 16 subjects already listed in this thread. In addition, this number was arrived at without really engaging others to provide input. I'm pretty sure the number of subjects will grow, as well as, the number of known examples per subject will grow.

Thus, I think it should not be stated that only a dozen examples exist until the proper analysis is performed.

As far as Brown Old Mills go I think the argument of including them on a rarity list just because they exist is inconsistent with removing the Old Mill Overprints from the rarity list. Just like the hand cut Brown Old Mills the overprints are also brown and hand cut. The only difference is that the overprints have the extra Factory 649 stamp on them. In my opinion all the Brown Old Mills were errors and/or an experiment. If you are going to include them in a back rarity list you should also put the Brown Old Mill Overprints back in.

Just my 2 cents.

Jerry

[tedzan]

This is not by all means a complete listing of the T206 back scarcity of the 6 super-prints, it is just a start.
We have a complete scarcity listing for the Red Cobb (that is listed here). A completely representative list
that includes the other 5 super-prints requires an extensive survey. Since these cards have as many as 24
different Tobacco advertising backs.





Red Cobb scarcity list......(the other 5 super-prints have not been this thoroughly surveyed....
however, there is some cross-correlation with the Cobb).

BROAD LEAF 460
DRUM
LENOX
SOVEREIGN 460
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
SOVEREIGN 350
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
CYCLE 350
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
TOLSTOI
OLD MILL
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
POLAR BEAR
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25



TED Z

[cfc1909]

Brown Old mill with the red bar I think is an error-I doesn't even cover the original factory number.
I think brown Old Mill is another color variation just like brown Lenox or red Hindu. Maybe they are hand cut and not an issued back but they are the same as an Old Mill south back, just brown.
I feel you need this back if you want to complete a back set.
Also they belong at the top of the list with brown Lenox because there are way less examples of both backs then the next one which is Broad Leaf 460.

I am sure more examples will be found with all three backs.
I do beleive the top three stand alone because the next one, be it Uzit or Drum, numbers are around 200-250 each.

[cfc1909]

1. Old Mill brown
2. Lenox brown
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Uzit
5. Drum
6. Hindu red
7. Lenox black
8. American Beauty 460
9. Broad Leaf 350
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. Hindu brown
13. American Beauty 350 no frame
14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
15. Cycle 460
16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
17. Tolstoi
18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
19. EPDG
20. American Beauty 350 frame
21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
23. Cycle 350
24. Old Mill south
25. Sovereign 150
26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
28. Old Mill
29. Polar Bear
30. Sovereign 350 series forest green
31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
34. Piedmont 150 factory 25
35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
38. Piedmont 350 factory 25

ok-I switched Drum and Uzit-because of the 70 Drums in the recent finds
also switched AB 460 and BL 350 -BL 350 has alot more possibilites because of the series it is in

still willing to listen to any other possible changes-and remember this list will vary for each collectors expirience-this one is just my expirience collecting 206 tough backs
__________________

[Jantz]

Jim

Great info and thanks for posting it

Hope you've been able to get out and wet a line

Bass season began for me on Saturday

Jantz

[teetwoohsix]

Interesting how the Red Cobb Sweet Cap 460 Factory 42 & 42 overprint,Sweet Cap 460 Factory 25,and Sweet Cap 350 Factory 25 prove to be tougher than the Red Cobb Tolstoi and Red Cobb Old Mill.

I hope to see more of the scarcity list for the other 5 super prints,this is fascinating to me.

Great work as usual Ted Z!!!Look forward to more!!

Also,great work Jim R.-will refer to the latest list,for I am one who is trying to obtain at least one of each back type for my collection.

Thanks guys!!!

Sincerely,Clayton

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I think the list is pretty good except the placement of the AB 460. The 10 years I have been buying I have obtained many more AB 460s compared to Broadleaf and I always felt the AB 460 and Cycle 460 were equivalent. For a while I pursued both but couldn't afford to do both. My quest for the Cycle 460s has really hit a major slow down. I rarely see any on ebay and when I have put up a BST for them I only get one or 2 responses.

Has the supply of tougher backs dried up because everyone is hanging on to them?

I don't remember if Scot Reader had a list, if he did was it comparable to Jim's?

Lee

[cfc1909]

great to have your input Lee, I know you have chased these backs for some time. I too have questions about AB 460 and BL 350 and had them reversed in the beginning and still may change it back but as my post says it is very debatable.

This list is way more accurate then the one used by collectors, even myself in the past.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" Interesting how the Red Cobb Sweet Cap 460 Factory 42 & 42 overprint,Sweet Cap 460 Factory 25,and
Sweet Cap 350 Factory 25 prove to be tougher than the Red Cobb Tolstoi and Red Cobb Old Mill. "

That's how the numbers came out in the survey. Although, I'm inclined to think that the SWEET CAP 350,
Factory 25 is not as tough, as say a TOLSTOI.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Lee

I do not agree with you regarding the AB 460 cards. You and I have been collecting "460" backs for at least the past 10 years.
Your CYCLE 460 sub-set is near complete with 100+ cards (out of a possible 109).

My AB 460 sub-set is far from complete with approx. 60 cards (out of a possible 103). Furthermore, to date, only 73 cards with
AB 460 backs have been confirmed. I constantly search several sources to find any new AB 460 cards....they seldom appear.

The significant difference between CYCLE 460 and AB 460 are the Factory #'s. The CYCLE 460 cards are from Factory # 25 (VA),
where most of ATC's tobacco brands were produced in 1909 thru 1910. The AB 460 cards were inserted in AB cigarette packs in
Factory # 42 (NC).

The AB 460 cards were printed in 1911 at the tail-end of the T206 press runs (during the transitionary process of the ATC dives-
titure)....therefore, they were Short-Printed relative to BROAD LEAF 350 (Factory # 25) and CYCLE 460 cards.


Best regards,

TED Z

[scottglevy]

Jim,

I think that this is the best (most accurate) listing of back types. I agree with everything that has been written with one significant exception. I do not believe that AB 460 is nearly as tough as you rank it. Back in the 1980s when my dad and I purchased significant lots (or even entire sets) of T206 cards and before people really cared much about backs, we would always find at least one (many times 2 or 3) AB 460 in the collection. While we would also find at least one hindu (usually more).... other cards like CB and certainly Broadleaf were not always part of the collection.

My opinion based solely on my personal collecting experience is that AB 460 should appear as rarer than Hindu but not as rare as CB.

Regards,
Scott

[cfc1909]

Ted

I think Lee and Scott are right on AB 460-I think you are looking at it as trying to complete the AB 460 sub set rather than just getting an example of AB 460. It surely is more difficult to get 60 or more different examples of AB 460 or Cycle 460 than it is to get an example to complete your back set.

1. Old Mill brown
2. Lenox brown
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Uzit
5. Drum
6. Hindu red
7. Lenox black
8. Broad Leaf 350
9. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
10. Carolina Brights
11. American Beauty 460
12. Hindu brown
13. American Beauty 350 no frame
14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
15. Cycle 460
16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
17. Tolstoi
18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
19. EPDG
20. American Beauty 350 frame
21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
23. Cycle 350
24. Old Mill south
25. Sovereign 150
26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
28. Old Mill
29. Polar Bear
30. Sovereign 350 series forest green
31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
34. Piedmont 150 factory 25
35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
38. Piedmont 350 factory 25

either way AB 460 is tough and it is only moving between 8 and 11 and that is pretty close as each collectors expierence is different.

[Chicago206]

FWIW, I was able to snag a very pretty AB460 in a SGC 50 off ebay as a BIN for $125 about a month ago. You will NEVER see a BL350 in that grade sell for anywhere close to $125. BL350 is tougher than AB460.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250583328186

[caramelcard]

I think the list looks pretty good right now.

It doesn't matter much since they probably shouldn't be in there anyways, but I'd switch the blank back and the broadleaf 350s.

I've had over a dozen Broadleaf backs since 1999 and one blank back while going after and following both.

PS: I have a feeling we'll be having a blank back discussion soon.

Rob

[E93]

Can we add the Ty Cobb brand to the list? I think most people probably also consider the Coupon Type 1 to be a T206, but maybe re-designating is more controversial. I am curious to know where you think it would belong on the list.
Thanks,
JimB

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

A couple other observations about the list. I do believe the Piedmont Fact 42 is tougher than the Cycle 460. I learned early on how to spot a Pied 42 and I was only able to accumulate 3 in my quest of the T206 set. The other back I think is severely is the SC 460 25. When I finished I had only 3 in my collection, I really believe they may be tougher than Cycle 460.

Jim's observations are correct about finding single examples of Cycle, ABs and others. Sometimes it is easy to find a single example but to find certain examples can be very difficult.

I wanted to add my adjustments:

11. Hindu
12. Pied 42
13- 15. Cycle, AB and Sov in any order
16. Sweet cap 460 25
17. AB 350 NO Frame

Lee

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by E93

Can we add the Ty Cobb brand to the list? I think most people probably also consider the Coupon Type 1 to be a T206, but maybe re-designating is more controversial. I am curious to know where you think it would belong on the list.
Thanks,
JimB

Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features just 1 subject? Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features a glossy front surface on 85% of the known cards? Why should the Cobb back be considered a part of the T206 set? Because thats how it was categorized 70 years ago? Things change, they evolve as more info becomes available. Just remember that the same guy who called the Cobb/Cobb a T206 card, also called an Uzit an "Usit".

[ullmandds]

cobb/cobb would be #3...if it were a t206...and I'd place coupon I's at 7 or 8.

[E93]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features just 1 subject? Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features a glossy front surface on 85% of the known cards? Why should the Cobb back be considered a part of the T206 set? Because thats how it was categorized 70 years ago? Things change, they evolve as more info becomes available. Just remember that the same guy who called the Cobb/Cobb a T206 card, also called an Uzit an "Usit".

I suggest you read my response to your initial questions above.

In response to your questions here, Jefferson Burdick is the person who invented the classification scheme that is still used today, including the designation "T206". Nowhere does he indicate the number of subjects that need to be on the fronts of advertising backs. Nor does he indicate that a glossy front would eliminate a card from consideration. He lists all the advertising brands included with the T206 designation and the one quality they all have in common is that they all advertised American Tobacco Company products between 1909-1911. A typo on the spelling of Uzit is hardly evidence that the Ty Cobb brand should be disqualified. There was debate a few years ago about wether the Ty Cobb brand was a brand issued by the ATC and if so, when it was issued. That debate was resolved last year with period newspaper articles and other evidence that Ted Z produced about a period collection. FYI, the recent find of two new examples also appeared within a larger period collection of T206s.

If you want to change the classification system and establish your own criteria for designation, more power to you. If it is convincing enough, I am sure the collecting world will follow you. You should use a term other than "T206" however because T206 includes brands like Ty Cobb and American Beauty that have physical qualities that differ from the other brands in most cases. And you might want to consider the exclusion of Polar Bear since that was the only brand where the cards were placed with loose tobacco as opposed to cigarettes.
JimB