T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's

[tedzan]

Most T205 collectors consider the HINDU's tougher than the DRUM's. To date, there are 25 subjects confirmed with DRUM backs. While there are
19 subjects confirmed with HINDU backs. DRUM and HINDU checklists will follow.
And, this I can state with certainty: T205 DRUM and HINDU cards are mutually exclusive.

How many more T205's yet to be found with HINDU backs is not easily discernable, given the existing back patterns associated with T205 HINDU's.

However, I have a theory regarding the predictability of DRUM cards in the T205 set.

Theory...... the A=B=C=D equation




Apparently, American Lithographic printed American Beauty (Black)...Broad Leaf...Cycle...Drum backs simultaneously on certain T205 subjects.
Research suggests, as many as 32 subjects were possibly printed with DRUM backs in the T205 set.
The key factor in this A=B=C=D equation is the Black American Beauty back. Conversely, a T205 subject with a Green American Beauty back
will NOT be found with a DRUM back.


Here's my original list of 11 predictions Since I proposed these predictions, 4 of them have surfaced with DRUM backs (marked confirmed on list).
So, I'm 4 for 4 (Batting 1.000). Therefore, I'm feeling very confident that my theory is valid.

The remaining 7 guys have been confirmed with the A=B=C pattern. So, I expect these 7 subjects eventually will be discovered with the DRUM
back (completing their A=B=C=D connection).

1......Bates.........confirmed
2......Becker
3......Bergen.......confirmed
4......Evans
5......Herzog
6......Huggins
7......Leach.........confirmed
8......Lobert
9......Paskert......confirmed
10....Phelps
11....Wheat


Having said all that, the intent of this thread is twofold....to inform....and to encourage more worthwhile T205 discussions. Especially, regarding
the tougher front / back combinations (i.e: HINDU's....AMERICAN BEAUTY....BROAD LEAF....CYCLE....DRUM's, etc.).


So, feel free to post your T205's of any variety.....and/or, to chime in with some interesting stories regarding your T205 set or cards.


TED Z
.

[T205 GB]

Ted the Cycles don't follow the pattern like they do on 206's. I also have a list of Hindu confirmed/possibles I can post of your interested. I have some where a list of the same for Drums but having issues with my desktop where I believe it is.

[tedzan]

List of the 19 subjects currently confirmed with HINDU backs (with respect to their Team affiliation)......


New York Giants
-------------------
Leon Ames
Josh Devore
W. R. Dickson


Chicago Cubs
----------------
John Kling
John Pfeister


Cincinnatti Reds
-------------------
Robert Bescher
Richard Egan
Harry Gaspar


Detroit Tigers
----------------
George Simmons
Oscar Stanage


Philadelphia Phillies
-----------------------
Fred Jacklitsch
Sherwood Magee


Washington Senators
-------------------------
Walter Johnson
GeorgeMcBride


Boston Red Sox
-------------------
Clyde Engle


Boston Rustlers
------------------
Bayard Sharpe


Brooklyn Superbas
----------------------
Edgar Lennox


Pittsburg Pirates
--------------------
Albert Leifield


St Louis Browns
-------------------
William Bailey




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Ted the Cycles don't follow the pattern like they do on 206's. I also have a list of Hindu confirmed/possibles I can post of your interested. I have some where a list of the same for Drums but having issues with my desktop where I believe it is.

I realize that the patterns of the T205 CYCLE's are different than they are with the T206 cards.

But, when the CYCLE's are in partners with the black American Beauty and the Broad Leaf cards for a given T205 subject, then a Drum
will inevitably follow.

And, by all means, please list all of the Drum and Hindu confirmed/possibles you have.


Thanks, ole buddy

TED Z
.

[EvilKing00]

Love all the recent t205 threads! If anyone had a hindu or drum they are looking to sell i could be interested

[Steve D]

I have a T205 Jake Stahl (Boston Amer) with a Hindu back.

Steve

[tedzan]

Steve

Your T205 Jake Stahl is a new HINDU card. This is the 20th confirmed HINDU.

When you can, please post front & back scans of it.


Thanks for this important input,

TED Z
.

[Wite3]

Ted is spot on in his evaluation...the matrix can be further seen at t205resource.com

Drum used to be tougher than Hindu but I suspect the print runs were probably similar. There was a couple of "large" Drum finds (around 20 cards total) a few years back that allowed much of those into the hobby.

I can tell you that there were at least three press runs for Hindu as I have have seen three different Hindu Ames sell during my time. As for Drum, I have only confirmed duplicates of Brown and Quinn...still waiting to confirm a triplicate of those two.

Joshua

[tedzan]

Team affiliation of the 25 subjects currently confirmed with DRUM backs......

New York Yankees
----------------------
James Austin
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Jack Knight
John Quinn
Harry Wolter


Philadelphia Phillies
-----------------------
John Bates
Patrick Moran
George Paskert


Chicago White Sox
----------------------
Russell Blackburne
Frederick Olmstead
Fred Payne


Boston Rustlers
-------------------
George Graham (blue signature)
David Shean


Brooklyn Superbas
----------------------
George Bell
William Bergen


Chicago Cubs
-----------------
Mordecai Brown
Lewis Richie


Cincinnati Reds
------------------
Thomas Downey
Richard Hoblitzell


New York Giants
--------------------
Albert Bridwell
A. Latham


Philadelphia A's
------------------
Briscoe Lord


Pittsburg Pirates
-------------------
Thomas Leach


St Louis Browns
-------------------
George Stone


St Louis Cardinals
---------------------
Frank Corridon




TED Z

[peterb69]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I have a T205 Jake Stahl (Boston Amer) with a Hindu back.

Steve

Thanks Steve, great find

[whelenfan]

Loving this thread!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Ted is spot on in his evaluation...the matrix can be further seen at t205resource.com

Drum used to be tougher than Hindu but I suspect the print runs were probably similar. There was a couple of "large" Drum finds (around 20 cards total) a few years back that allowed much of those into the hobby.

I can tell you that there were at least three press runs for Hindu as I have have seen three different Hindu Ames sell during my time. As for Drum, I have only confirmed duplicates of Brown and Quinn...still waiting to confirm a triplicate of those two.

Joshua

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment.

Regarding the relatively recent two finds of T205 Drum's, that I think you are alluding to. Ron Oser and I were set-up at adjacent booths at
a Philly Show when Ron discovered those cards on his trips to St. Louis. Ron and I were like two kids sorting thru all these T205 (and T206)
Drum cards (which altogether totaled approx. 70 Drum cards)......what a "blast".


TED Z
.

[T205 GB]

Ted I remember sitting at the Hilton bar with you in 2010 and talking t205's and this back pattern link and also some other card back list and connections. Hope we can repeat that again this summer. Here is the Hindu list I made about 2 yrs back. I deleted it off the board along with some of my other research. Anyways here's what I have:

I have been researching this set for what seems yrs now. I was leaning towards a theory about the Hindus a while back but needed a few more back confirmations to make the connection factual. Hindus were printed at the 649 Fact, as well as the Hassan 649 back. After a lot of research I noticed that NO Hindu players were found with Hassan Backs even though they were printed in the same factory as each other. I then realized there was another neat thing that all Hindus have the SC black backs only. So if it has a Hassan back then there will be NO Hindu or SC Black back from either factory. None of the AB, BL, Cycle, Drum, or Pied 42 cards can be found with the SC black back from either factory either, but can have SC red fact 25.

These may have not been printed, but they meet all the criteria to be a Hindu print, and there is a list of Confirmed backs below. Also you will see a few Variations listed. I believe the 2 variations listed are the correct card for the back to fall on. This is due the card listed as being the primary card containing the SC Blacks from both factories and the other variation being a type of misprint or correction later on.

Possible
Abbaticchio
Archer
Ball
Birmingham
Bransfield
Ciotte
Daubert
Doughtery-Red Sox Emblem
Duffy
Ford Black Cap
Fromme
Goode
Gray-No Stats
Griffith
Groom
Hoffman
Hummel
Jennings
Killian
LaPorte
Lang
Livingston
Lord
Lush
Maddox
McElveen
McIntyre
McLean
Mitchell
Moriarity
Mullin
Rucker
Schmidt
Scott
Stahl
Thomas
Young

Confirmed
Ames
Bailey
Bescher
Devore
Dickson
Egan
Engle
Gaspar
Jacklitsch
Johnson
Kling
Leifield-A on Front
Lennox
Magee
McBride
Pfiester
Sharpe
Simmons
Stanage

I do hope this will help out in some way and hope to cross off a few in the future to the confirmed list. I would be happy to hear any questions or comments.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Ted I remember sitting at the Hilton bar with you in 2010 and talking t205's and this back pattern link and also some other card back list and connections. Hope we can repeat that again this summer.

The Hilton in Baltimore, I remember that well. I wish all the future National Shows were in Baltimore. Anyhow, we talked T205's quite late
into the night. I think we finally ended talking about our Daughters....your Kadence and Melody, and my Zoe and Debra.
The Good Lord willing, we can continue our conversation this forthcoming Summer.


Thanks for posting all this good stuff regarding T205 HINDU's. I will certainly give it some serious thought.

Incidentally, on your possible list is Stahl, and yesterday Steve D (post #6) identified Stahl with a HINDU back.


TED Z
.

[Steve D]

T205 Stahl Hindu back:



Steve

[dog*dirt]

Stahl Hindu back:

Very cool!

[whelenfan]

That is one great card

[tedzan]

List of the 22 subjects currently confirmed with HINDU backs (with respect to their Team affiliation)......


New York Giants
-------------------
Leon Ames
Josh Devore
W. R. Dickson


Cincinnatti Reds
-------------------
Robert Bescher
Richard Egan
Harry Gaspar


Chicago Cubs
----------------
John Kling
John Pfeister


Detroit Tigers
----------------
George Simmons
Oscar Stanage


Philadelphia Phillies
-----------------------
Fred Jacklitsch
Sherwood Magee


Washington Senators
-------------------------
Walter Johnson
GeorgeMcBride


Boston Red Sox
-------------------
Eddie Cicotte
Clyde Engle
Jacob Stahl


Boston Rustlers
------------------
Bayard Sharpe


Brooklyn Superbas
----------------------
Edgar Lennox


Chicago White Sox
--------------------
Hugh Duffy


Pittsburg Pirates
--------------------
Albert Leifield


St Louis Browns
-------------------
William Bailey




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

So, you have completed a 208-card set. Your T205 challenge is over with. Or, is it ? No, it's not....the "hunt" must continue, as you become obsessed
with the various T205 backs.
This occurred to me with the T206's many years ago, when I realized a pattern of backs that I refer to as the A-B-C-D connection. Check out this link
for more info on this sub-set. And, for example, here is my A-B-C-D "quadruplicate" sub-set of my favorite T206 Minor Leaguer....Frank Delahanty


.



Recently, I started similar A-B-C-D sub-sets for these four T205 guys.


.


I currently have the AB's for these guys....and, the additional backs shown here. Any help in acquiring the remaining Broad Leaf, Cycle. and Drum
backs to complete the A-B-C-D sub-sets of these 4 subjects is greatly appreciated.

Bergen & Wolter are confirmed with Drum. Huggins & Lobert have yet to be found with the Drum back. However, I firmly believe that they will be.


Hey guys......this is just a alternative sport in the fun of collecting Tobacco cards that I thought may interest some of you.


TED Z
.

[Leon]

Hey Ted
Small world. That Wolter Drum used to be my type for the mfg for many years. Nice research and thanks for sharing!! I have shown these so often folks will think they are commoners....

[tedzan]

That's pretty cool.....it is a small world.

So, maybe your Johnson Hindu will soon be mine


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Some Net54 collectors of T205 cards have in the past complained that there are too many threads on T206's
and very few threads regarding T205 cards. Well, I started this thread in order to "gin up" some interesting
discussions on these cards.
Apparently, there does not seem to be any interest in my suggested "Quadruplicate" sub-sets. So let's switch
over to posting T205 printing errors. Perhaps, that may keep this thread active.

I'll start with my Eddie Collins card with a mis-printed back.

What is quite interesting about this particular card is that it reveals to us that this Collins card was Double-
Printed (horizontally) on its sheet.

.



OK guys.....how's about showing and/or telling us of your T205 anomalies.....or anything T205.


TED Z
.

[EvilKing00]

1 - Archer - Hard to tell from the bad scan, but hes got 4 eyes
2 - Tannehill - has a sunburn
3 - Bailey - pink baseline
4 - Ball - missing red ink


001.jpg

[Econteachert205]

Paddy and Howie are missing gold at the top. Wish I could help with the ABCD stuff!

[dog*dirt]

That LaPorte is great Dennis.

[tedzan]

Steve and Andrew

Thanks for posting your T205's.....very interesting.

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

Paddy and Howie are missing gold at the top. Wish I could help with the ABCD stuff!

Dennis

I haven't seen "missing gold" T205's in ages. Thanks for posting your's.

The ABCD stuff.... Dennis, I think I'm probably the only dude on this forum that finds such esoteric back combinations interesting.

I'm picking up a CYCLE back for this Lobert A-B-C-D combo. And, although the DRUM version of Lobert is unknown, I'm certain it will appear.

I'm happy that I have the BROAD LEAF back, because in my opinion the BROAD LEAF (black) backs are as scarce as the DRUM backs.



................




TED Z
.

[AddieJoss]

Austin in a PSA 3

[AddieJoss]

Latham..With a drum

[AddieJoss]

Hindu

[AddieJoss]

Hindu

[tedzan]

Hi Cory

Great cards....thanks for posting your DRUM's and HINDU's.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Here's another mis-print, this one tells us that John Titus and Tony Smith were adjacent cards on this printed sheet.






TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Knowledgeable T205 collectors believe that the T205 Minor Leaguers were printed late in 1911 (or 1912) based on the bios of 8 of these subjects. According to my T205 Exclusive 12 theory
there is a high probability that these 12 subjects were printed on a sheet of their own separate from the other 196 subjects in the T205 set.







However, the aesthetic design of these 12 cards is very similar to American Lithographic's (ALC) non-sports cards of 1911....such as the Military Series cards depicted here.

T80 examples
. .
. .

We have actual proof from an ALC ledger that the T80's were issued as early as Feb 1911. And, a T80 and a T206 were both inserted in Cigarette packs in that timeline.
Furthermore, was the artwork for the Minor Leaguers created by the same artist that created the T80's early in 1911 ?

But, for whatever reasons the Minor Leaguers were then shelved until very late in 1911, when these 12 guys were printed and issued.

Personally, I favor the design of these Minor Leaguers over the design of the 196 - T205 Major Leaguers.


TED Z
.

[Econteachert205]

Since the t206 sheet threads have been so huge I was wondering when the 05s would get some love. I especially would want to know because of the nature of the sp's and how the sheets were put together. Thanks for all the work Ted!

[bn2cardz]

It would be a great help if PSA would start showing love to the t205 set. They still just label them as Gold Border (same as t207 being listed only as 'brown background'). They don't indicate back advertisements not alone factory like they do with t206. That would really help. For this reason I wouldn't get any t205 or t206 graded with PSA anymore.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

Since the t206 sheet threads have been so huge I was wondering when the 05s would get some love. I especially would want to know because of the nature of the sp's and how the sheets were put together. Thanks for all the work Ted!

Dennis

I appreciate the compliment.

Regarding printed sheet arrangements, illustrated here is my hypothetical simulated sheet of 48 cards of the Minor Leaguers. I could expand this format to as many as 108 cards
that would fill-out a standard 18" x 24" size sheet that was used by American Lithographic for their small size lithographic projects in that era.

Note that this arrangement is only 48 cards due to the 18 image limitation on Net54 posts.















TED Z
.

[EvilKing00]

That handford card still bothers me, with the red background. Why is he the only one? Some responded cause of the team. Hes the inly jersey guy, could be. Where there supposed to be more jersey guys? Probably. Love the mystery as well as the beauty if the set.

[tedzan]

The following is a list of the Black ink AMERICAN BEAUTY subjects that I'm aware of in the T205 set.

I have 32 confirmed listed here....however, I have been informed that there are 33.
Please check out this list and tell me who the 33rd guy is.

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert
Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter


Thanks much,

TED Z
.

[T205 GB]

Ted I have 32 on my list also. Not sure who said there are 33. I may be wrong though.

[CW]

Interesting thread on a great, underrated set. Thanks for posting all the cards, guys.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The following is a list of the Black ink AMERICAN BEAUTY subjects that I'm aware of in the T205 set.

I have 32 confirmed listed here....however, I have been informed that there are 33.
Please check out this list and tell me who the 33rd guy is.

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert
Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter


Thanks much,

TED Z
.

I apologize if that was from my signature. It was a typo I noticed after reading your post. My spread sheet has 32.

[tedzan]

I was told of a possible 33rd AB (black ink) card from an old T205 collector friend of mine.

Also, I had noticed that you had "33" noted in your signature, so I was wondering if there are 33 - T205's with this back.


Andrew W. and Andy N.

Thanks for confirming the 32 number.


TED Z
.

[AddieJoss]

Are there also a total of 32 total Broadleaf backs?

[tedzan]

The following 32 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF back.

Note that this list is exactly identical to the previously listed black ink AMERICAN BEAUTY backs (in Post #38).

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert
Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

You can call me a "nut", but here is another challenge. If you have achieved the aforementioned "quadruplicate" sub-set for a given T205 subject (Post 19), then extend it
to a "Quintuplicate" sub-set by adding a moderately tough SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #42) card to this group to achieve this 5-card series.
All 32 subjects that are possible with DRUM backs will invariably be found with this red colored SWEET CAP back.


-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------



Of course, it goes without saying, the real challenge in this game is to find Jack Quinn's BROAD LEAF and DRUM cards.



I first started collecting this pattern with my T206's. My favorite T206 image is the blue Chase; and, I have been searching for 34 years for the DRUM
to complete this Quintuplucate sub-set. However, no DRUM card of the blue Chase has ever been confirmed. I'm beginning to wonder if this Hal Chase
card was ever printed with a DRUM back.







TED Z
.

[T205 GB]

Just got out my miscut fronts and ghost today

Paskert ghost
Stone MC front top w/AB back
Gaspar/Gaspar
Bescher top MC
Street/Bresnahan mouth closed
Richie vert MC
Titus/Beck vert MC

[bn2cardz]

Since there are some errors showing up, here is what I have retained:

[Econteachert205]

The 32 cards previously mentioned... would they be considered as to have been printed more than the others in the set, or does their having been printed with so many different backs not effect production runs as they simply had smaller numbers with more backs?

[tedzan]

Typically, for any one of these 32 subjects, the total sum of their AB + BL + CY + DR backs is approx. 10 % of the total card count of a given subject.
Therefore, my answer to your question is that these 32 were not printed more than any of the other 176 subjects in the T205 set.


................... tough ..................................... rare ....................................... tough ...............................…. very rare





TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

That handford card still bothers me, with the red background. Why is he the only one? Some responded cause of the team. Hes the inly jersey guy, could be. Where there supposed to be more jersey guys? Probably. Love the mystery as well as the beauty if the set.

Hanford should have been captioned with Montreal (instead of Jersey City). It's an error card, both in Team and in color.









TED Z
.