Addie Joss auto?

[michael3322]

Hey everyone,

Belated happy new year, as I haven't posted in a while.

I noticed that in Lew Lipset's Old Judge April auction there is a listing for a "Rare 1905 Raymond Kahn postcard with Addie Joss addressed to “Norman Joss” in his handwriting with COA"

The description notes that "Kevin Keating has verified that it is Joss’ incredibly rare handwriting and has provided a COA."

Has anyone seen a Joss auto? I scoured the web but couldn't find an image of his signature. If anyone has one, could you kindly post a scan on Net54? Given the era when Joss played and his untimely early death, his may be one of the rarest of HOF autos.

Thanks,
Michael

[CMIZ5290]

Extremely rare autograph, especially when you factor in that he died either 1910 or 1911.....

[michael3322]

"Joss' playing career was cut short when he died suddenly from tuberculous meningitis on April 14, 1911."

Wikipedia

Scott Langert wrote a great SABR-published bio on Joss called King of Pitchers.

Later this year, Joss' writings as a newspaper reporter/columnist will be published as a volume (Addie Joss on Baseball: Collected Newspaper Columns and World Series Reports, 1907-1909).

But the question remains, have Joss-signed cheques or legal documents (or frankly any cut auto) survived and ever made it to the auction block?

Thanks,
Michael

[Fred]

I'd have to figure that IF it's a real Joss signature and someone can really prove this then that thing is going to sell for $$$$$

So, 5 year old Norman gets a post card with his dad's picture on it and he his dad decides to sign it within the next 4 years because he's afraid his son won't recognize him? I don't get it. Why would Joss sign it and comment that it's himself standing on the left? He would have known it was himself and so would his son.

Does anybody else feel this same way?

[nolemmings]

It's not being sold as an autograph. It's offered as Joss' handwriting to his son--someone else added Adrian's identification later.

[tbob]

How did Kevin Keating verify the handwriting was Joss'? What did he compare it to? It could be someone in Cleveland who was a friend of the family who saw Joss' picture and thought that it son would like to see it. I'm skeptical. Hope it's genuine.

[michael3322]

I also wondered how Kevin did the authentication.

A quick Google search produced the following article on Keating on the PSA website: Catching Up with Kevin Keating

Apparently Keating who runs Quality Autographs, graduated from the US Military Academy at West Point with a 4.0 GPA (with a major in Chinese and Far East Studies) and later earned a master's degree from Johns Hopkins.

Unfortunately, Google didn't reveal any other specimens of Joss' handwriting...

[jtschantz]

I have searched long and hard for a Joss autograph with no luck at all. I live in Toledo OH and have visited Addie's grave site (Woodlawn cemetary) and driven by his house (it sold for $800 a few years ago!). A friend of mine visited with his grandaughter for an article he was writing for the Toledo Blade 25 years ago. The grandaughter gave the writer a panoramic picture from the Addie Joss Tribute (all star) game that was originally presented to Addie's wife. I have never been able to find anything that had his signature.

[packs]

It seems like a stretch to attribute the postcard to Joss. Without running a census report, who is to say that there wasn't more than one Norman Joss in Toledo? If there is a complete and fully verified Addie Joss handwritten note that the authenticator compared the handwriting to I would love to see it. I bet it's a beauty.

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . that Kevin Keating acquired a Joss signed legal document (deed, loan document, will?) for inclusion into his own personal baseball HOFer autograph collection.

I could be mistaken, but I thought a Joss handwritten letter had also surfaced over the past 10-15 years too.

[sago]

Originally Posted by packs

It seems like a stretch to attribute the postcard to Joss. Without running a census report, who is to say that there wasn't more than one Norman Joss in Toledo? If there is a complete and fully verified Addie Joss handwritten note that the authenticator compared the handwriting to I would love to see it. I bet it's a beauty.

I searched for the name in all databases on ancestry.com. Only one Norman Joss in Toledo, born in 1902.

[michael3322]

Sago: that's some great, swift net research. Thanks.

It settles whether this could conceivably be a postcard to Joss' son. I think the point remains though that it is impossible for us to verify that this is Addie's actual writing without exemplars.

Since Joss was also a journalist, I wonder why drafts of his articles or any checques or legal documents bearing his signature have not surfaced.

[packs]

Wow. One Norman Joss. Was Addie listed as the father? Now I'm dying to see some Joss notes.

[Fred]

Yes, Norman was Addie's son.

The following is an an excerpt from an article about Addie's death. Note the Fulton street address is also the address on the post card:

Adrian (Addie) Joss, a Toledo resident and star pitcher of the Cleveland team, had died suddenly on April 14, 1911, at the age of 31. He left behind his wife Lillian and their two children, eight year old Norman and four year old Ruth, in the family home at 2440 Fulton Street in Toledo. After the funeral the Cleveland team determined to hold a day to honor the pitcher and raise money for the family, but the management soon became bogged down in on-the-field problems and the idea was put on the back burner.

[michael3322]

Actually, it is kind of a sad story.

Norman Joss died on Nov 21, 1977 at the age of 75. Two months later, on January 30, 1978, his father was finally elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

See: Joss Kin Happy, Sad with his Election (The Blade Toledo, Feb 1, 1978)

There is a nice remembrance of Norman in the Blade's April 27th edition, where he is described as a "modest man", "a soft-spoken fellow."

This article also mentions that Norman gave photos and momentos to the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.

Does anyone here know anyone on the staff at the Baseball HOF who might be able to tell us more about their Joss memorabilia?

[Tom Hufford]

Actually, there was a second fellow named Norman Joss, although I haven't found him in the US Census records.

The Social Security Death Index and the Florida Death Index show that a Norman Joss died November 17, 1971 in Pinellas County. He was born on April 16 1906. Social Security records list him as a resident of Michigan when he obtained his SS card, before 1951.

I have no idea if he was kin to Addie and Addie's son, Norman.

[michael3322]

A scrapbook surfaced last November that included a photo of the Joss family, including young Norman and his sister Ruth.

See the photo.

[michael3322]

I just exchanged emails with Lew Lipset. He very kindly gave me permission to post on Net 54, the higher resolution scans of the postcard, as well as the COA from Kevin Keating who certifies the handwriting as Joss'.

[drc]

I'm no Joss autograph expert, but will note that people sign and note family photos and pictures in different ways and know that many families wish relatives would have specifically named 'the obvious' of who's who in a photo as no one knows who are those people in the photo in the family album anymore. What may be obvious today may not be in 50 years. So, if anything, Joss noting which one he is for posterity was a prudent move, and many would do the same.

I have an elderly aunt who labels all photos-- which often is essential for the family in identifying who's who. In a class photo of my grandmother that already had all the classmates' names printed at the bottom, my aunt circled my grandmother's head and wrote in her name. Obviously redundant information, but that's they way my aunt did things. My dad liked her labeling but tried to convince her to write these things on the backs of the photos, not the front images!

[canjond]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Keating hasn't said Joss identified himeself on the postcard... instead Joss' handwriting is the address (addressing the card to his son). So, the "partial" signature is the fact that he and his son share the same last name; i.e., there is an authentic "Joss" signature. I don't think Kevin has indiciated who may have added the identification.

[canjond]

I just saw Todd said the same thing above...

[michael3322]

Does anyone know if PSA or JSA has ever authenticated a Joss signature?

[Rob D.]

It appears that the speculation posted in this thread has had quite an effect. The postcard is at only $11,000-plus with a couple of hours to go.

[Bicem]

Wtf?!

[michael3322]

Rob - Given the extremely high final auction price, I think it is hard to imagine that this thread had any impact. In fact, I started it to try to ascertain whether or not the postcard could be linked to Addie Joss in a way that could be independently corroborated. I couldn't find a signature of Joss' and Lew emailed me the higher resolution scans of the postcard and Kevin's COA (all of which I posted). Apparently Kevin has seen Joss' hand-writing, however none of this is posted in a publicly viewable format on Kevin's website. I would still love to see an authenticated Joss auto, and despite the 1900+ views of this thread, no one chimed in to present an image of one.

[MiracleBraves1914]

Hi guys, I'm new to the site and joined it after reading this thread. I apologize for the length of this post, I just wanted to give proper back story to the picture I'm about to share. I'd imagine I'm one of the younger folks registered here (27), but I've been actively collecting pre-WWI baseball memorabilia since I was around 13, when someone in my small North Carolina hometown found a beautiful Joss t206 card in an old book and my mom managed to get it for me for my birthday. Joss became the main focus of my early collecting and, over the years, I feel like I've amassed a fairly decent Joss collection, between cards, premiums and newspaper clippings (many of which I've never seen elsewhere).
Naturally, as my interest grew, I began to investigate, like many of you, whether or not an autograph of his actually existed. In late 2006 or early 2007, I was fortunate enough to get to participate in an estate sale of a prominent Texas card and memorabilia dealer. Among his personal items, under glass in a nailed-shut old box, was the piece of paper you see in the picture.
The estate had not taken steps to authenticate it (as many auctions will simply look online for a comparable item for price considerations and, as we know, internet searches for "Addie Joss autograph" are rather fruitless), but as the story went, this was the old man's pride and joy and he swore up and down it was Joss's signature. Being that I also had nothing to compare it to, I bought it at a very, very reasonable price on good faith and a hunch.
Over the past few years, I've searched often for any comparison (I can't really afford the PSA system and I would be very uncomfortable putting this in the mail), and until the Old Judge auction listed the postcard a few months ago, I was beginning to wonder if I'd ever get to put more than a "maybe" on this signature.
Earlier in the summer, I downloaded the high quality images of the Norman Joss postcard and waited with baited breath to finally have something to compare handwriting to. I fully expected to be disappointed. However, after looking once, shaking my head and looking again, I saw similarities in the handwriting I never would have dreamed possible. I think I may have found one of baseball's Holy Grails. Inscribed on a roughly 2x4 corner of what appears to be an old shopping list is "Addie Joss, Cleveland '11" in pen.
I'm really interested to see what you guys think about it. Most of my "baseball friends" have never even heard of him. I'm not trying to sell it, at all, but after reading this thread and seeing so many people looking for something that I'm fairly sure I've finally found, I couldn't not share the joy. Can't wait to see what you guys think!

[gnaz01]

WOW!!!!!!!!!! If this is a real Addie sig, you just won the lottery my friend!! It sure bears a VERY strong resemblance to the postcard he wrote to his son!! Good luck!!

[packs]

Man. That is something.

[Leon]

this thread is copied from the card side of the board for some comments from the autograph guys.....

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by MiracleBraves1914

this was the old man's pride and joy and he swore up and down it was Joss's signature.

Can't say I know anything about Addie's handwriting, but I hope for your sake it's genuine!!! That would be an unbelievable find! Then in about 60 years, someone can say the same above quote about you

[Scott Garner]

WOW! Boy, I'll tell you, that's one heck of a way to introduce yourself to net54!

Very interesting post, indeed! Good luck in your quest to have this authenticated.

BTW, there is a book that is soon to come out, which will address the autographs of all the members of the baseball Hall of Fame. I wonder if there will be another exemplar provided of Joss in the book?

Whose estate did your Joss autograph originate from, just out of curiousity?

[novakjr]

You could always compare it to this CC/Morales Joss

http://www.myccsa.com/lot/235/addie-...signature.aspx

[tbob]

I think you need to have the signature you have authenticated because there are some dissimilarities in "Joss" between the postcard and the "Joss" in your signature. Also if Kevin Keating has an authentic Addie Joss signature on file he can examine the "A" in Addie which in your example is very distinctive. I wish you the best and hope you strike gold.

[MiracleBraves1914]

Scott, I don't remember offhand the name of the man. The auction may have just been listed as "A prominent Texas...etc" but I honestly can't recall. Apparently he was involved in the hobby for around 60 years, I'll let you know if I can dig it up. Obviously, it's something I'd need to have authenticated/disproved eventually.
I'd never seen a picture of the "Respectfully yours" signature before so thank you to the user that posted it. It's great to finally have examples to compare it to, regardless of outcome, after all these years of looking. Thanks guys! This site is amazing.
-Matt

[bender07]

This is great and I hope it's genuine. The "J's" have drastic slant variations and that "A" is very unique so we'll see if Keating has one. Who wrote that book again that's coming out in the Fall? Maybe contact him?

[bender07]

He was kidding regarding the Coach's Corner link. They're a very well known proprietor of fake autographs.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by bender07

He was kidding regarding the Coach's Corner link. They're a very well known proprietor of fake autographs.

Sorry, forgot he was a new guy...I should've been a little less subtle about that...

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by bender07

This is great and I hope it's genuine. The "J's" have drastic slant variations and that "A" is very unique so we'll see if Keating has one. Who wrote that book again that's coming out in the Fall? Maybe contact him?

In comparing both the scripted words "Addie Joss" in Matt's scan to the Norman Joss postcard, there are also marked differences in the "d" in Addie and the "d" where Addie wrote out his address in Toledo, OH.
Having someone more with more expertise look at the autograph would definately be a good idea.

BTW, the person that is coming out with the book on HOF autographs is autograph expert Ron Keurajian.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by tbob

I think you need to have the signature you have authenticated because there are some dissimilarities in "Joss" between the postcard and the "Joss" in your signature. Also if Kevin Keating has an authentic Addie Joss signature on file he can examine the "A" in Addie which in your example is very distinctive. I wish you the best and hope you strike gold.

I noticed the slant difference and the o in Joss on the signature connects to the first s like a cursive o usually does while the postcard's o is more like a cursive lower-case a, sort of like how Mel Ott connects his O with his t.

[JimStinson]

I just spoke on the phone with Ron K. (author of the book), the example of Joss that he is using in his book is one which originated from the family of Nap Lajoie as part of an autograph album that sold back in the 1980's. I know of only two examples generally believed to be authentic, one of them being the one referenced above (that will be in the book) and one which was obtained directly from Addie Joss widow which is cut from a legal document. They are both slightly different but I believe both are authentic. The cut from the legal document matches almost exactly letter for letter the autographed postcard addressed to his son referenced in this thread that was authenticated by Kevin Keating. The version that is to be in the book resembles slightly the example the fellow posted here that he obtained from the long time Texas autograph dealer. I think I know who he is speaking about but can't remember the dealers name, Was it Conrad Barker ? If I recall he was based out of Dallas and died about 20 years ago and he had been a dealer with a good reputation for about 60 years. Maybe a hobby veteran could help with the name. If its the same guy he called his company something else and it was taken over after he died and honestly can't say if they are still in business or not, I'm thinking not.

Two factors to take into consideration with Addie Joss is
a) The variance in his signature probably due to the fact that he was a very sick man the last few years of his life
b) raritiy of known examples
So being able to track and confirm provenance is vital in determining authenticity perhaps even more important than what the autograph itself actually looks like. I've never had an Addie Joss or been offered one so I have no dog in the fight. Hope this helps.

[chaddurbin]

we need a "like" or "+" feature for posts...jim's always a wealth of knowledge on autos and willing to share.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I just spoke on the phone with Ron K. (author of the book), the example of Joss that he is using in his book is one which originated from the family of Nap Lajoie as part of an autograph album that sold back in the 1980's. I know of only two examples generally believed to be authentic, one of them being the one referenced above (that will be in the book) and one which was obtained directly from Addie Joss widow which is cut from a legal document. They are both slightly different but I believe both are authentic. The cut from the legal document matches almost exactly letter for letter the autographed postcard addressed to his son referenced in this thread that was authenticated by Kevin Keating. The version that is to be in the book resembles slightly the example the fellow posted here that he obtained from the long time Texas autograph dealer. I think I know who he is speaking about but can't remember the dealers name, Was it Conrad Barker ? If I recall he was based out of Dallas and died about 20 years ago and he had been a dealer with a good reputation for about 60 years. Maybe a hobby veteran could help with the name. If its the same guy he called his company something else and it was taken over after he died and honestly can't say if they are still in business or not, I'm thinking not.

Two factors to take into consideration with Addie Joss is
a) The variance in his signature probably due to the fact that he was a very sick man the last few years of his life
b) raritiy of known examples
So being able to track and confirm provenance is vital in determining authenticity perhaps even more important than what the autograph itself actually looks like. I've never had an Addie Joss or been offered one so I have no dog in the fight. Hope this helps.

Jim,

Great information-thanks!

Has Ron K. ever told you from what time period he believes that the autograph from Nap Lajoie's album was signed?

Also, I know that Joss died from Tubercular Meningitis, but I was unaware that he was ill for a long period of time. I do know that the TB Meningitis that Joss ultimately died of struck him suddenly in April of 1911 and he died within a few days, shocking the baseball world at the time.

Did Joss suffer from other major ailments as well? It's amazing that he was able to throw a perfect game in 1908 and a no-hitter in 1910 if he did.
Just wondering....

[David Atkatz]

Conway Barker, Jim.

I've still got some of his old price lists. Man! Those prices! Still it was too much money for me when I was twelve or so.

[RichardSimon]

I would agree that the autograph of Joss should be authenticated. However, the one person whose opinion I would trust on this is not a formal authenticator.
Ron Keurajian would be the one person I would trust to give an opinion on this autograph.
I know him but it seems that Jim knows him much better then I do.
Perhaps he can help out here.
Jim, would you want to ask him if he will help?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

we need a "like" or "+" feature for posts...jim's always a wealth of knowledge on autos and willing to share.

+infinity

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

+infinity

From one of my favorite movies.. "Billy! You're so stupid, you were were supposed to say infinity+infinity!!!"

[JimStinson]

There is a really good book on Addie Joss that used to be available through SABR, that details his chonic health problems. His obituary from 1911 reads "PITCHER JOSS DEAD, ILL ONLY FEW DAYS" he died from tubercular meningitas, but as was customary if a player was sick he didn't play so his condition of course was kept quiet plus a team would be less likely to sign a player with a fatal illness to a lucrative contract. News accounts of the day reported "arm problems" and the like especially in 1910.

The Lajoie scrapbook that contained the Joss if I remember correctly was signed around 1908. In addition to some Hall of Famers it also had the autographs of many 19th century non-famers. Several buyers were fighting over the book back then and I think what happened is a few dealers partnered in on it and bought it and broke it up. I ended up with a few signatures from the book that I needed at the time for my own collection. I don;t know where the Joss ended up

As for Richard's suggestion asking Ron K. about authenticity I can almost predict what his evaluation would be , And I say that only because even though I believe both the signature from the Lajoie book and the document signature I mentioned from the widow are legit. We disagreed slightly on the examplar that was obtained from Joss's wife. So much so in fact that I provided a copy for the book but he chose not to include it.

[jeffmohler]

Jim - if I recall correctly, the Texas dealer you reference was Conway Barker. William Van Buskirk used to consign material to Mr. Barker to sell.

[JimStinson]

I believe thats the guy, he was pleasant and knowledgible and honest.

I culled this from wiki but the SABR book goes into alot more detail. Joss was a seriously frail man

Of his 160 Major League wins, an astonishing 45 were shutouts. Joss's 1.89 career ERA is ranked second all-time (behind that of Ed Walsh), while his 0.97 WHIP is the lowest career WHIP in MLB history. His lifetime wins total suffered because he missed portions of several seasons due to injury and illness

[Scott Garner]

Jim,
Thanks again for providing all of the terrific information.
You are an awesome resource and and it's great to have you as part of the net54 community!