T206 Wagner proof strip now in Philly...

[brass_rat]

Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but the T206 Wagner proof strip is now available for viewing at Citizens Bank Park in Philly...

It appears that it will be auctioned off at the FanFest this summer.

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/spor...#axzz0oLpvXTPH

Have a good one,
Steve

[FUBAR]

hopefully there will be some coverage of the auction.... i've never heard of this proof strip but would love to see it and watch the auction action

[irishdenny]

i wondered if one of the card doctors performed their work on this Wagner(in secret ofcourse, Like the PSA 8 and SGC graded it a 9, what the outcome would look like?

i saw this strip last time around, still can't believe it only sold in $200,000 range?

Yes, at this time in auction market, i can't wait to see the outcome!

[teetwoohsix]

Even though the strip isn't in the best shape,it is a true one of a kind.Imagine that in your collection!!!

Clayton

[usernamealreadytaken]

Is the backs(s) blank on the test strip?

[teetwoohsix]

I've never seen the back of it,but I'm almost 100% sure it's blank.

Clayton

[Uriarte69]

I'll be there for the phestival on Monday. Guess I'll bring a couple hundred grand extra with me.

[judsonhamlin]

Has anyone seen an off-center version of either of the surrounding cards that has a sliver of Wagner (or a replacement card) at the edge?

[fkw]

[gnaz01]

Rumor has it that Wagner used to carry this around in his back pocket. Don't know how true that is. But I have known about this "card" for at least 25 years now.

[E93]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Rumor has it that Wagner used to carry this around in his back pocket. Don't know how true that is. But I have known about this "card" for at least 25 years now.

I don't know about that, but it was found in the attic of a home formerly owned by Wagner. It was probably given to him to try to encourage him to sign on to the project.
JimB

[Jay Wolt]

I remember seeing an ad for this in SCD about 15 years ago and the seller was asking a million for it.
Anyone remember who the seller was?

[barrysloate]

Was it Leland's?

[drc]

I believe Solomon Cramer auctioned it a number of years back.

[tedzan]

these proof cards look to me as having been pasted together on a horizontal strip. The reasons for my skepticism are as follows......

(1) The Wagner's colors are complete, while the colors of the other 4 subjects are incomplete (this is a printing impossibility).

........Wagner's collar is blue, but the other 4 collars are not.

........CYoung's uniform has no color and his background is a pale green (it's missing the final blue ink to darken it)

(2) There are NO lines between cards on an uncut sheet, panel, or strip....what you see here are 5 individual cards.


No siree, this is not a production type uncut strip of five T206 cards.



TED Z

[thegashousegang]

great observations, Ted. Wish I could see them in person to get a firsthand look - but I won't be heading down to a Phillies game for a little while this season.

[M's_Fan]

Its very likely that this was a test strip, in which they were experimenting with different colors, and the final T206 colors were very different from this test/experimentation piece. So the colors don't bother me. And I don't think you could paste together several cards without there being some evidence of an actual seam, real T206's dont' have this line, but pasted cards would have a seam, so this is clearly one piece of paper with test markings on it. And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards? It sold for only $200k, a strip card is probably less valuable than a stand alone Wag. That theory doesn't add up. This is a legit T206 test strip. It has its oddities and we'll never know its full history, but it isn't fake or manufactured IMO.

[drdduet]

Good call Ted, albeit an easy one. I agree totally. What gave it away to me were the lines, your keen observations on the colors make it completely obvious!

once again great job

[tedzan]

Sorry to disagree with you, but those vertical lines between the cards are seams. This improvised strip was done in 1909
for whatever purposes. Bill Zimplemann discovered it in Wagner's estate near Pittsburgh several decades ago..

And, the inconsistent colors should bother you, because each inking phase of the 6-color process in printing these cards
was applied simultaneously on all cards on a given sheet, panel, or strip.

Finally, your.."And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards?"..is laughable. In 1909 a T206 Wagner
was no different than a T206 Wilhelm.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

I can't explain the lack of color,or the seams,but I can see what M's Fan means by it appearing to be one piece of paper-when you look at the wear between the Young and the Kling,it appears to be one piece.Wouldn't the wear be peeling away down the middle,exposing a paste job?

I've not yet seen any other example of uncut T206 sheets to compare this to,has anyone else?

Clayton

[dstudeba]

As I recall it was found in the pocket of a pair of pants in Wagner's home. I think that is probably where the "carry it around in his back pocket" came from.

I also believe it is a single sheet of printed cards, I do not believe that they are 5 seperate cards pasted together.

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to disagree with you, but those vertical lines between the cards are seams. This improvised strip was done in 1909
for whatever purposes. Bill Zimplemann discovered it in Wagner's estate near Pittsburgh several decades ago..

They don't look like seams to me, but I haven't examined the card in person. Does anyone have a scan of the back?

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, the inconsistent colors should bother you, because each inking phase of the 6-color process in printing these cards was applied simultaneously on all cards on a given sheet, panel, or strip..

Again, that is assuming the normal printing processes of T206. I'm just saying that it is quite likely that this test strip was an experimentation piece, where all bets are off. The printer could have been experimenting with all sorts of color processes and sequences.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Finally, your.."And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards?"..is laughable. In 1909 a T206 Wagner
was no different than a T206 Wilhelm. TED Z

I was thinking that someone wouldn't have done this in modern era, I wasn't considering that someone would have done this in 1909. I was thinking that in the modern era, someone with a valuable Wagner wouldn't risk everything to gain so little by attaching it to a sheet. It doesn't make the card more valuable, based on its recent auction. It doesn't add up to me, but I'm admittedly just going on my gut feeling here.

But I really can't see why someone would have done it in 1909 either now that you mention it for the reasons you stated, nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? That someone did this back in the early 1900's is even more unlikely, and actually quite laughable, to borrow a phrase...

[aelefson]

Hi-
I was able to look at this strip a number of years ago when Steve Verkman owned it (or was holding it for the owner). I examined it at one of the Shriner's Wilmington MA shows. I do not recall it feeling/looking like it was made up of several cards pasted onto a strip, but my memory is not the greatest. Perhaps an email to Steve might clear up some of the confusion (or start it anew).
Yours in collecting,
Alan Elefson

[tedzan]

FYI....this so-called strip is blank-backed.

Upon magnification, you will find that the vertical lines between the cards are actually seams.

Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the
T206 market launch.

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.


TED Z

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

TED Z

I should have phrased my comment better, the cards were popular, but certainly not considered valuable back in 1909-1911. Many people threw the cards away, many gave the cards to kids (who would beg for them outside tobacco shops). So the cards were popular (especially with kids), yes, but not valuable enough for someone to go to the great lengths of creating a fake strip card in hopes of monetary gain. I admit that this is just my opinion, its always possible that someone did that, I'm just saying it seems highly unlikely to me.

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the T206 market launch.

This is possible, but it seems highly unlikely to me that someone would go to the trouble of making a strip card and hiding the seams. Even if you have the skill to do this, why would you? Wagner won't care if there are seems on his sample. And why even bother to cut cards and then make a strip for Wagner? Why not just easily paste them on a sheet of paper side by side? It just doesn't add up to me that someone would go to this effort, there seems to me no reason to do so. But maybe there is a reason they did it that we don't know of.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.

TED Z

Let us know how it looks in person, wish I could take a look at this curious piece!

[canjond]

Ted- I've seen the card in person, too, and not sure I can agree with you on this one... at least to the point it is pasted together. What I recall, and what is somewhat evident in the scan, is that the crosshairs on the cards side stretch into each other, overlap, and I believe one is double struck. In order for the pasting theory to hold water, the cards would have needed to be pasted together, then re-run through the printing process in order to get the cross hairs to line up perfectly and overlap each other. Individually printed cards would not create this same effect. Again, while I could see it would be plausible to get all of the crosshairs to line up if cards were individually printed and then pasted together, it would be impossible to get the overlapping crosshairs unless they were printed after the cards were reattached.

[onlychild]

(1) The Wagner's colors are complete, while the colors of the other 4 subjects are incomplete (this is a printing impossibility).

........Wagner's collar is blue, but the other 4 collars are not.

I dunno Ted...compared to the other Wagner's it certainly seems to be missing some or all of the blue.

The seams or lines are sure strange. it would be great to see up close and in person.

[camlov2]

I have never seen the piece in person, however there are a few things that stand out to me-
It seems like there is chipping between the Bowerman and Young cards (upper half) right along where the two cards would come together. The crease to the right of the Young card also seems to follow perfectly where the two cards would meet. I would guess seperate cards due to those two items and the difference in colors.

unrelated question- Why does it appear if there are lighter circles underneath all of the printers marks?

[Abravefan11]

Edited to change my opinion.

Looking really closely at the cards below and other examples of the Wagner, it appears the underlying color of the collar is black and not white or gray like the others. So at first look it appears that Wagner's collar has had the color application and the others have not, but it is missing the blue as well.

The images could have been printed simultaneously.

[barrysloate]

I saw the strip in person on a regular basis- it was part of the Halper Collection and when I was a cataloguer at Sotheby's during that time it was there. My memory is it was one continuous strip, but it has been over ten years since I last saw it.

[jeffshep]

Here's a link to it selling at Mastro/Oser back in Aug. 2002 for over $78k. I recall some T3 proofs having a different look than their standard issue counterparts - slight variations in color, perhaps a crisper image.

Now if Bowerman and Wags had only switched places, lookout!

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=27422

[Abravefan11]

Here's a large image of Wagner's collar where you can see the underlying color is black with a blue layer applied on top.

[jmk59]

Tim - very nice layout of the strip and the individual cards in the same order. Thanks for putting it together - makes it very easy to compare and think.

J

[steve B]

Without getting into wether it's a pasteup or not - And I'm on the fence about that- I can point out why someone would make a pasteup like that.

It's an old sales tool to drop names, even if the names dropped haven't signed or bought yet. Some old sales letters will mention well known personalities or companies that use the product, and yes it's underhanded, but some of those people or companies didn't ever buy the product.

So lets say you're trying to get Wagner to sign so you could use his image.
You send a letter saying something like "all the greatest players have agreed to be in the set". And along with that you send a sample. That sample can go a couple ways depending on the individual. Someone with a big ego that was very public say Reggie Jackson? You'd probably just include his own card. For most people you'd want to include their card plus a few others. Just like on this strip. Young is a good choice unless Wagner doesn't like him personally. Brown is also a good choice, one of the better pitchers, and also a national leaguer. Both those choices play to the ego, if Young and Brown are in the set most guys would want to be there as well. Bowerman and Kling seem like odd choices, maybe there were more sample strips and the better players got used up. OR maybe Bowerman and Kling were guys that were friends with Wagner or players he respected for some reason. I don;t know enough about Wagner or Bowerman and Kling to feel at all sure.

What doesn't quite fit this idea is Wagner being anywhwere other than the center of the strip. That's where I'd put him if the strip was a pasteup targeted towards him.

Totallly unsupported guess? If it's a pasteup maybe it was Bowermans and Wagner got it from him when he heard about the cards that he hadn't agreed to be on?

Pasteups like this would also be used to arrange the final sheet layout once all the designs had been approved either by the player portrayed or the printers art department. or both. I think modern cards have a whole crew of approvals required.

Steve B

[jeffshep]

Great observations Steve!

[carrigansghost]

I too have seen this strip and the printers marks do cross over. I believe it to be not made made a talented craftsman from any era.

Rawn

[tedzan]

This was my understanding and what I stated regarding this 5-card strip back in post #24......

"It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the T206 market launch."

Your story is an excellent elaboration on what has been rumored about this Wagner strip. Thanks for posting it.


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

It doesn't look like any sort of normal proof to me.

I see the cross marks, and it is obvious that all of the color isn't there. Those features seem consistent with proofs.

What looks wrong to me are those lines that Ted mentions. If card stock had been used to print proofs there would be no vertical lines where the cards would have been separated. In looking at the places where it looks like the cards have lost their surface, it makes me think that what was printed there was printed on paper, not on card stock. Then, those pieces of paper were assembled onto a piece of card stock.

I do think it is something that would have come out of the shops of American Lithograph. But it looks assembled because of those lines. If it was just a proof on card stock, then there would be no vertical lines where the cards would be cut, there would only be the proof cross marks.

[botn]

I saw the strip back in 1999 and I too believe it is one continuous strip of cards but I was not inspecting it for that purpose.

[barrysloate]

Maybe when Wagner was asked his permission to appear in the set, he simply asked them to send a sample so he could see what they looked like before he made up his mind. And then the printers hastily sent him something.

[tedzan]

FYI....here are some examples of pre & post-war Salesman's Samples. Such BB card promotional samples (throughout the years)
have preceded new issues. And for obvious reasons, they are always standard production examples of the actual BB cards.

This 5-card (Wagner) "strip" in no way represents a standard production of T206's. In my opinion, it was hastily cobbled together
with individual FRONTS of T206's to provide Wagner a sample of his card.... prior to the T206 production run in the Spring of 1909.
And, as Steve B alluded to, 4 other players were discretely selected from American Litho's T206 proof pile and added to compose
this strip.....perhaps, in order to sway Wagner to grant them the rights to include him in this set.

From what we know about how T206's were printed, a true production uncut horizontal strip of T206's would comprise of at least
6 cards.....and, without lines between these cards, or the alignment cross-hair markings.

No one here has yet presented a plausible argument regarding this "strip" to convince me (and some others), otherwise.







TED Z

[Abravefan11]

I'm skeptical of the theory that American Litho made or sent this strip to Wagner for his approval or to sway him into being included in the set.

If you were trying to sway Wagner would you send him an incomplete product? Or would you run the additional colors and send him an example of a finished product?

[JamesGallo]

I think the fact that several people who have seen it in person think it is a strip means something.

Ted have you not seen this in person.

I know something about the prodruction process and I can tell you that there are times when there is one or a few things done differently from everything else.

Also if this was not a strip I don't know why it wouldn't be removed and sold as single cards. This has always sold for less then single Wagners and I think as a single card the Wagner would sell for more then the strip has.

James G

[tedzan]

1st......the story says this strip was in Wagner's estate until it was discovered in the 1970's..............Do you accept this ?

2nd...."off the bat", Wagner claimed he did not want to be any part of these tobacco cards. But, he was one of the most
popular BB players in that era; and, ATC wanted to include him in their new set of premiums....I think we know this is so ?

3rd.....this strip has all the makings of a HASTILY conceived attempt to persuade Mr Wagner to sign onto ATC's designs.
Again, I have to repeat what STEVE B has very astutely suggested......

"For most people you'd want to include their card plus a few others. Just like on this strip. Young is a good choice unless
Wagner doesn't like him personally. Brown is also a good choice, one of the better pitchers, and also a national leaguer.
Both those choices play to the ego, if Young and Brown are in the set most guys would want to be there as well."

Finally, Tim regarding your........
"If you were trying to sway Wagner would you send him an incomplete product? Or would you run the additional colors and
send him an example of a finished product? "

ATC was ready to go into production with these cards in the Spring/Summer of 1909 and this was a pre-production "selling
sample" that they cobbled together at the last moment....at least Wagner's picture is virtually complete.


In any event, I personally feel that if we can date this piece to being a pre-production T206 artifact, it should garner a value
equal to (or greater than) any similar Wagner card.

However, to date it has not, nor will it....until it is professionally SLABBED....this is too bad !



TED Z

[E93]

The lack of blue looks to be uniform across all five cards. But color variations from proof to final versions do not bother me. They probably had not yet made final decisions on colors, etc. But they were close enough to use this to try to entice Wagner to sign on. It is evident that this would be a high quality set with a nice depiction of him, were he to agree to be a part of it.
JimB

[E93]

I tend to think it is a strip, not pasted together, but honestly I don't think it really matters. It is five proofs, including Wagner, with provenance tracing back to Wagner himself!!! I have always been surprised that it has not sold for more. Condition must be the major factor in lower than anticipated pricing. That may change some day.
JimB

[tedzan]

As I said......

" In any event, I personally feel that if we can date this piece to being a pre-production T206 artifact,
it should garner a value equal to (or greater than) any similar Wagner card.
However, to date it has not, nor will it....until it is professionally SLABBED....this is too bad ! "


Watch it's value rise to Big, Big $$$$$$, if some one convinces a Grading Co. to SLAB it.


TED Z

[drc]

From the pic, it looks like a pasted up item to me. However, that doesn't mean it isn't genuine. By definition, proofs are pre-final production tests and are apt to be different than normal.

[Abravefan11]

Ted -

Yes I agree with the points you have made. It's a fascinating piece and I also agree that once it's slabbed by a grading service the price will go way up.

[Tex]

Ok I don't have nearly the knowledge of some of you in this thread, but I gotta ask: How is a proof strip supposed to convince Wagner to sign on?

I realize there are all sorts of theories about the motive of Wagner's opposition, but the assumption that this strip was a negotiation dangle probably could use a check.