American Caramel E121 series of 80 survey revisited

[brianp-beme]

I thought it was just about time to dig up and combine a couple of threads I had posted last year and got good response from all you fellow collectors. It involves both cards listed in the SCD for this E121 series of 80 set which I believe may not exist, and cards that are listed for this set that might only exist with the back (first line ends in 'eighty') variation.

After collecting these cards for a while and watching when they come up for sale, I am convinced that some of the cards listed in the catalogs for the E121 Series of 80 set are either incredibly tough to come by or non-existent. I have come up with a list of cards in this set that I have not personally seen, and in the previous postings by fellow collectors, was not able to cross off the list. I would appreciate hearing back, either here or by email, from collectors on any they might have or have positively seen for sale. Keep in mind that most of the cards listed below are variations, so all the noted information about the card needs to be exact.

Cards that possibly do not exist in the E121 series of 80 set:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Pat Shea (no quotation marks)
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)

The original list I created to verify the existence of certain E121 cards did not include any card that I only possessed an 'ends in Eighty' variation example. I thought I would list those cards now to see if any of you collectors out there can verify the existence of the normal back of each of the following listed below. My thinking is that we can verify some other tough, possibly 'ends in eighty' only cards. After previous input from collectors I have narrowed down the list to what is seen below, however I did add three cards to the list (Causey, Ryan and Earl Smith) because I realized I had left them off the original list and I suspect their existence in anything but the first line ends in 'eighty' variation.

E121 series of 80 cards that possibly are only available with first line ends in 'eighty' back variation:

Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
M.J. McNally
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Jack Quinn
John Rawlings
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith

Your assistance will be greatly appreciated!


Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, I am fairly sure that I owned a Pat Shea (no quotes) with a regular Series of 80 back in the past (I could be wrong though), also I have found a "Pat" Shea, and Jack Quinn with the Type 3 back as well.

Also, SCP just had a Frank Baker in their last auction and (surprise, surprise) he has a "ends in eighty" back. Also, I think there are quite a few more people that are only found with the tougher backs as well (George Ruth, Aaron Ward, Robert Roth, Roger PeckinPaugh(correct), William Fewster, and some others--all of which are NYAL and NYNL guys).

It has long been my theory that the "ends in eighty" series was produced later than the regular "eighty of the" series and included a huge number of new NY players that were about to play each other in the upcoming world series. Many of these "ends in eighty" players were then also featured in the Koesters set (with some notable additions) and some were then carried over to the series of 120.

-Rhett

[rhettyeakley]

Also, another tidbit I have recently uncovered is that the "ends in eighty" subset was apparently produced at the same time as the Gasslers Bread set. That set also has an extraordinary # of NY guys in it and many of those that are only found in the "ends in eighty" subset.

I knew there was a Frank Baker in the Gasslers set for some time but after seeing the E121 one in SCP it really confirmed that theory that I had. Also, I have seen "Phil" Douglas with the Gasslers back so I am pretty confident that a E121 "ends in eighty" of him will be found (a la the Baker card)

-Rhett

[ErikV]

Brian,

I think I have the Douglas card. While it's not a great
sample, you can clearly make out the quotes and the
"eighty" on the back. Hope this helps with you research.

ErikV

[t213]

Brian,

I have both versions of Pfeffer. The Brooklyn one has the "eighty of the" back and Cardinals has ends in "eighty" back.

Andy

[nolemmings]

don't know how this fits in, but for your research you can note that this Leader Theatre back Pat Shea lacks quotation marks:

[rhettyeakley]

Todd, the Leader Theatre cards correspond with the E121 Series of 120 as to their timeline (as do the Lou Gertenrich cards) so all the Shea cards shouln't have the quotes in those series.

BTW, thanks for shoving that card in my face again! I am still kicking myself for not going higher on that lot in H&S w/ that card and the M101-6 Hornsby! Also, I still need a Leader back so when you get sick of Mr. Shea he will feel more comfortable here w/ me!

[Brian Van Horn]

I don't mean to spin this thread in another direction, but can we confirm that the only three poses that are strictly related (as far as E121 80 and 120 series) to the first line ending in "eighty" are the following:

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, If you are talking about POSES ONLY then you can add Robert Roth w/ his arms outstretched to the list, also I have only seen the Jack Quinn with the 2 rarer E121 Series of 80 backs (the sample size of type 3 backs is too small at this point to say with 100% certainty that any your 3 or the Roth can't be found w/ that back as they may). Also, please note that all of these players are theoretically found w/ blank backs (W575-1) although I still have to confrim that "Rip" Collins can be found that way (although I suspect he can as I have personally seen all of the others).
-Rhett

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

Thank You for the information. I was excluding any sets outside of strictly E121s with 80, eighty or 120 backs.

[brianp-beme]

Hooray...a virtual floodgate of info. Due to the input (thanks Rhett, Erik Brian and Andy), I will revise/expand the lists below to reflect this new information. Thanks for the scan Erik...this card has shifted lists because of you. As is obvious if you check out his website, Rhett has studied this set quite extensively, and I will defer to his knowledge. Some great theories about the New York player angle...it makes a lot of sense. I will not consider the type 3 backs as discussed by Rhett as of yet, so that things don't get too confusing. And as corresponds to what Rhett mention, the two Gassler Bread cards I own are Causey and Ward, both of which are listed below as potentially issued only with the ends in 'eighty' back variation.
A question for Rhett--are there two versions of the Roth card? I have never seen the Roth, so don't know what other pose there is besides 'arms extended', which I haven't seen either.
Here are the updated lists.


Cards that possibly do not exist in the E121 series of 80 set:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121 series of 80 cards that possibly are only available with first line ends in 'eighty' back variation:

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
M.J. McNally
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith
Aaron Ward


Thanks again everyone,

Brian

[old-baseball]

I have both of these cards in my collection and I do believe that Aaron Ward is one of the tougher cards but I did pick up this second copy (second one shown) at the National this past summer knowing it was I tough card and hoping I could trade it. I didn't even look at the back until I was in a conversation with Rhett at his both and he was explaining his theory on the two backs, that is maybe the "eighty or the" version is more rare in some cases.

[rhettyeakley]

Kevin, the two Ward's you have shown have the two rare backs (as I would have suspected). Even though the lower one looks "regular" he has the Type 3 back I mentioned earlier--see the last line on back vs. a normal E121 and you will see the difference. The sample size of those backs is still pretty small (as they are the rarest of the 3 backs), but what I have documented of them the checklist will look a lot like the "ends in eighty" subset. I would be surpised to find a Ward with a regular Type 1 back.



**Just as a refresher, here are the known back variations at this point (the reversed back isn't a true back variation, just a printing variation)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Kevin for showing your Ward cards, and Rhett for posting the different backs for our fellow collectors to reference. I have updated the list below to reflect the new data.

Cards that possibly do not exist in the E121 series of 80 set:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121 series of 80 cards that possibly are only available with first line ends in 'eighty' back variation:

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
M.J. McNally
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith
Aaron Ward -- also seen with 'type 3' back


Brian

[brianp-beme]

As Rhett pointed out, the Type 3 backs are pretty tough to come by, probably more so than the ends in eighty backs. I think, however, that there are more out there unnoticed because of the subtle differences between it and the normal back...you have to be rather font-conscious to notice.

I have listed what I own...if nothing else to aid Rhett in his uncanny pattern deciphering ways.

Bancroft-fielding
Eddie Collins (have both type 3 and regular backs)
Donovan (type 3 and regular)
Frisch
Heilman-running (type 3 and regular)
Judge-batting
Kerr
Vitt


Brian (not type 3, nor regular)

[rhettyeakley]

I have not seen a regular back of each of these Series of 80 players (some probably do exist that way but I have only seen the "ends in eighty" for these guys, I have checklisted roughly 50 guys with this back at this point so I still need some players from the suspected 80 or so they probably produced during that print run...

William Fewster
Miller Huggins
Emil Meusel
Arthur Nehf
Robert Shawkey
Frank Snyder

so, check your E121 Series of 80's and let me know if you have regular backs of these guys (not Type 3 backs).

***************************
Also, here are my Type 3's that I have seen over the years (some of which I own)...

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
W. L. Gardner
Harry Heilman
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young

[wrapperguy]

Brian,
I have a Causey with an "eighty of the" back. Sorry, my scanner and new Mac do not get along.

[rhettyeakley]

Check your Causey and let us know if the last line on back "Lancaster and York, PENNA." is in the block writing or in the more ornate writing as seen in my earlier scans (Type 1 or Type 3 backs). A scan would be nice.
-Rhett

[wrapperguy]

Also found a Type 3 back for Causey and E. Meusel.

[rhettyeakley]

Jeff, so I am assuming the Causey you mentioned was actually a Type 3 (not a Type 1) as I would have suspected.

This thread is getting pretty exciting because it is confirming a lot of theories that I have long had regarding the E121 set. Timeline is roughly, Regular E121 Series of 80, then came the "ends in eighty" back and the Type 3 back.

I would theorize that the last back (of the 3) produced was the Type 3, as if you look at the next E121 set they made (the Series of 120) it has the same style writing on that last line as the Series of 80 Type 3's--something I immediately suspected when that type was first discovered a few years back when I was looking over my E121's.

Good stuff!
-Rhett

[sreader3]

I believe this E121-80 back type has not yet been discussed. The first line ends in "eighty of the" but the font is smaller than the other types (or possibly the difference is center rather than full justification like the difference between the two Holsum Bread types), such that "the" ends above the "U" in "LEAGUES." Comments welcome. Also, if anyone has an idea of the premium (if any) that would attach to this back type I would be interested in knowing.

Scot

[yomass]

I went to find a Cobb throwing facing front series of 80 card, as I had that one checked off from Lipset's list. Instead, I found that I simply had two variations of the same looking right throwing pose- Manager and Mgr. Both these have the "eighty of the" type 1 back, so there must be more than one printing with that back.

Is the Lipset Encyclopedia checklist the source for these catalogued cards that perhaps don't exist? In the case of the Cobb, the Mgr variation is not listed (unlike the Evers variations listed separately as #45 and 46 in his list). Perhaps it could just be a minor error that went unnoticed.

[yomass]

I have a Cecil Causey "eighty of the" back, but it is type 3, consistent with Rhett's theory.

[rondiamond]

I am 100% positive that there are NO Alex Gaston cards. I've been collecting this set for 20 years and have completed what should be a complete set and after 500 shows and a half dozen nationals...and after a dozen reply letters from the major dealers in this country...NO ONE has seen this supposed player for this cataloged set. PSA says they graded one, which was put up on Ebay recently but was a 1922 E121...not a 1921. I've tried several times to get PSA to change it's list of players for this set but they are too busy and don't care.
Thanks for bringing this question up.
Ron Diamond('ariev' 2nd highest and soon to be #1 1921 E121 80 set on the PSA registry)

[brianp-beme]

Hi Ron...thanks for bringing back this post. Maybe others can chime in about the various mysteries of this issue mentioned in this thread. Your point about the Alexander Gaston card is duly noted. I would be surprised if any of these were to pop up, considering how long you have looked.

Since you seem to have quite a nice collection of the E121 80 series cards, I would like you (or anyone else out there) to help us out with possibly narrowing down the 'Might not exist' list. Here is how it currently stands:

E121 80 series checklisted cards that might not exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


Let us know if there are any of these out there, and if so, which type of back (type 1, 2, or 3) it has.


Thanks,

Brian

[rondiamond]

FIRST...is the 80 without variations? Then..
You are correct...I have never seen any of the cards which are on your list.
You are much more of a purist than I. And I thought I was serious about this
set! It was my first and still is my favorite(due to 20+ years of collecting).
Not sure how to handle PSA and SGC when they are too 'busy' to get things
straight....they say they use the major catalogs(for card investigation) but
no 'catalog' company has ever decided to grace my email page with any
explaination of their process for placing names on sets.

Good luck to all others(except when it concerns me completing this set)!!!

Best of health

Ron

[brianp-beme]

I thought I would update and consolidate some of the evolving E121-80 lists based upon recent finds and additions. Let us know if there any errors, omissions or additions. See Rhett's previous post on this thread (post # 14) for examples of the varieties of backs:

E121 80 series checklisted cards (no matter what variation of back) that might NOT exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121-80 cards only currently known with Type Two back (first line ends in 'eighty'):

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
William Fewster
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Miller Huggins
M.J. McNally
Emil Meusel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
Robert Shawkey
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder
Aaron Ward


Known cards with Type 3 backs (fancy print on Lancaster and York line). This list is in its infancy...let us know what you have:

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Eddie Collins
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
William Doak
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
Frank Frisch
W. L. Gardner
Harry Heilman
Joe Judge
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct spelling, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
Oscar Vitt
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young


Thanks of course to everyone and especially Rhett for most of this great info.

Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, here is an updated list of my non-Type 1 holdings as of right now, (the "NNO" below is just part of my spreadsheet so don't pay attention to that)...

1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Dave Bancroft (Leaping)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Geo. J. Burns
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Cecil Causey
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Eddie Collins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Rip" Collins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Phil" Douglas
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Urban Faber (White Uniform)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Frank Frisch
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO W. L. Gardner
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Mike" Gonzalez
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Harry Harper
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Wm. C. Jacobson
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Hugh Jennings
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO M. J. McNally
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Emil Meusel
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO R. Meusel
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Arthur Nehf
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO John Rawlings
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Robert Roth
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Ed. Roush (C.F.)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Bill" Ryan
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Slim Sallee (No glove shows)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Robert Shawkey
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Pat" Shea
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Earl Smith
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Frank Snyder
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Milton Stock
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Aaron Ward
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Jake Daubert
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Urban Faber (White Uniform)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO William Fewster
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO W. L. Gardner
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Alexander Gaston
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Harry Heilman
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Waite Hoyt
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Miller Huggins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Elmer Miller
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Arthur Nehf
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Jack Quinn
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO George Whitted
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO "Pep" Young
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 4 NNO Walter Johnson (Hands chest)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 4 NNO Ray Schalk (Batting)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Rhett,

I have integrated your info on the Type 3 cards into its list, and have started a baby "Type 4 cards known to exist" list as well--personally I believe that these were not a real separate run, but more of a printing error.

Brian


E121 80 series checklisted cards (no matter what variation of back) that might NOT exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121-80 cards only currently known with Type Two back (first line ends in 'eighty'):

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
William Fewster
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Miller Huggins
M.J. McNally
Emil Meusel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
Robert Shawkey
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder


Known cards with Type 3 backs (fancy print on Lancaster and York line). This list is in its infancy...let us know what you have:

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Eddie Collins
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
William Doak
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
William Fewster
Frank Frisch
W. L. Gardner
Alexander Gaston
Harry Heilman
Waite Hoyt
Miller Huggins
Joe Judge
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct spelling, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
Oscar Vitt
Aaron Ward
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young


Type 4 "Reversed Back with condensed first line" cards known to exist (example of this back on post 22):

Walter Johnson (hands at chest)
Joe Judge
Ray Schalk (batting)
George Sisler (throwing)

[old-baseball]

Brian / Rhett - Just want to make sure we're all talking the same language...

Type 4 - is the newly discovered (couple of months ago) reverse were the first line of printing has the tight spacing between the words. Type 1 (normal most common back) on the left and Type 4 (tighter spacing on first line plus in this case reversed) on the right.



What are we calling "reversed" back? Is it just "reversed" or Type 5? I think Brian is refering to it as Type 4 in his last post.

Anyway here's what I can offer:

I have a bunch of Type 2 cards - if you want me to identify them for you just let me know.

I have "Pat" Shea and Aaron Ward in both Type 2 and Type 3 in my collection.

Type 4 - tighter printing on first line
Sisler - Throwing (also reversed)

"Reversed" Backs
Bancroft (Batting)
Bush
Carey (Hands at Hips)
Daubert
May (no "S" at end)
Murphy
O'Neill
Pfeffer (Brooklyn)
Pipp
Toney (No Trees)
Veach (Arms Crossed)
Wingo

[rhettyeakley]

Kevin, you are correct about the "Type 4" back we are referring to. It has the condensed first line. It remains to be seen if these are more or less common than the Type 3's as it has only really come to light recently. My first inclination is slightly tougher than Type 3 but the sample size is pretty small.

About the "Reversed" back... I have seen the reversed back on Type 1, 3, and I think every Type 4 I have seen. I do not consider the "Reversed" back a variation at all just a printing goof of sorts. I haven't seen a Type 2 with the reversed back though even though it is the second most common of the backs. (Interesting isn't it?)

-Rhett

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Kevin and Rhett for getting me up to speed on what truly constitutes a Type 4 Reverse. I am pretty sure the Jennings and Milan I listed previously as Type 4's are just plain reversed backs, so I removed them from the list. I have corrected/updated that list to reflect Kevin's Sisler example as well. I have also updated the "Type 2 exclusive" list to remove the two cards that Kevin indicates he has Type 3 examples. Thanks for the info Kevin, and, as always, I appreciate the knowledgeable input of Rhett.

Brian

[Cat]

Here are two reversed backs. Only the Judge is somewhat rare?

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Mr. Cat for showing the two reversed back cards. The Judge has made its way to the 'reversed back with condensed first line list', and thanks to your posting of the Kerr reversed back on the same posting we can quickly see the difference between the two. The reversed back as seen on your Kerr definitely seems more readily available than the condensed line version, but still is fairly uncommon.

Thanks for the input...any more E121 uncommon back info out there to share, anyone?

Brian