Love me some paper thin (T213-1) Coupons

[buymycards]

My only Type 1.

[tedzan]

1910 COUPON


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TED Z
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[tedzan]

After you "complete" a T206 set (or two), you then start collecting various patterns of T206's because The Monster has you "hooked".
With me it's this Quintuplucate sub-set of my favorite T206's subjects. In this case it is the blue Chase. I have been searching for 36
years for the DRUM. However, no DRUM card of the blue Chase has ever been confirmed. I am beginning to wonder if this Hal Chase
card was ever printed with a DRUM back.


........v




TED Z
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[tedzan]

Hey Jeremy

I've run out of 1910 COUPON cards to post, so I'm posting this COUPON card for laughs, so I can give this thread a friendly bump.



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TED Z
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[ullmandds]

my engle

[ullmandds]

and possibly my last

[deadballfreaK]

Here's the 13 I have all raw and in poor-g condition.

[ullmandds]

NICE...ken!!!

[RCMcKenzie]

Great cards, Ken. I sent you a PM about Hickman...Thanks, Rob

[deadballfreaK]

A couple of guys have asked for back scans so here they are.
top row: Lentz, Hart, Becker, Hickman, Carey
middle: Mowrey, Dubuc, McBride, Fritz
bottom: Doolan, Donovan, Dunn, Chase

[asoriano]

This has been fun to watch in the last few minutes:

http://sterlingsportsauctions.com/Lo...entoryid=33994

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by asoriano

This has been fun to watch in the last few minutes:

http://sterlingsportsauctions.com/Lo...entoryid=33994

Damn; I guess I should have gone for the AO Jordan that ended 9 days ago on ebay. It went for $372 and change

Steve

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Damn; I guess I should have gone for the AO Jordan that ended 9 days ago on ebay. It went for $372 and change

Steve

Steve, That Starr Type 1 Coupon is uber rare. 2 graded. Final price didn't surprise me at all. I was missing the Starr card in my near complete set of Type 1's before I threw in the towel. Never saw one come up in 10 years. Boom. There it is now! I think $1K is a bargain for the 16th T206 Brand!

BTW - See post #1 in this Thread...

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Steve, That Starr Type 1 Coupon is uber rare. 2 graded. Final price didn't surprise me at all. I was missing the Starr card in my near complete set of Type 1's before I threw in the towel. Never saw one come up in 10 years. Boom. There it is now! I think $1K is a bargain for the 16th T206 Brand!

BTW - See post #1 in this Thread...

funny...because if t213-1 were considered t206's...yes...each example would sell in the thousands like uzits or lenox. i find it amusing that since the lucky seven find it seems generally accepted all of a sudden that the cobb/cobb IS...t206.

maybe we need a t213-1 "find!"

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

funny...because if t213-1 were considered t206's...yes...each example would sell in the thousands like uzits or lenox. i find it amusing that since the lucky seven find it seems generally accepted all of a sudden that the cobb/cobb IS...t206.

maybe we need a t213-1 "find!"

Pete,
Yes, a possible small find might up the ante a bit, but I think time is all we need as to me there is more information and indication these are one of the brands that Burdick simply missed when he established 15 brands as T206. I think Leon's post with Burdick's "T213" information is even more viable to the debate b/c he addresses T213 as only 2 Types. "name in brown" and "name in blue". In 1960 he made no mention of the Type 3 Blue letter Coupon from 1919. I think that is one bit of information that is key in analyzing how much he really knew about them, and then to pour more water on his knowledge of Coupons, he didn't even know how many cards were in the Type 1 or Type 2 set as indicated with no number given (See below image/info Leon posted earlier in this thread) when he clearly gives a number for other sets like T209 Type 1 "16 known" and Type 2 "213 known" He didn't put any number beside the Coupons because he didn't have enough information and the rarity of Type 1 Coupons... (He didn't have a handle on 68 known subjects, nor did he even wager a "known" guess like he did with Type 1 and 2 T209s.) Totally understandable as these rascals are simply super rare. One other bit of information I have discovered about his "travels to the South" were he may have never stumbled upon many Type 1 Coupons b/c from what I have read about his Card find travels, he spend most of his travel in retirement areas of Florida and up and down the East coast. He even makes mention in one of his letters to Lionel Carter he was generally not too pleased with the amount of material available on his trips South. (Perhaps South only meant Florida and he actually didn't make it over to New Orleans area where the Coupons were probably more prevalent. He certainly has documented his trips and it seems he viewed going South as going down to Florida. (Not Louisiana) Totally understandable. With the rarity of the card, there probably were not a whole lot of cards that moved around the U.S. back in the day. Times have certainly changed. UPS for example was just setting up service in the South in the late 60's. (65-69 in Tennessee, Alabama, Louisiana, etc.) so basically the mail was it. No internet, limited communication as well as folks wrote letters. Limited phone use... I think there is way more evidence of Coupon simply being a brand he missed and I think the Type 2 and 3 were the reason as it threw him off with the blue lettering, date of release, etc. Anyway - The debate rages on. I think T206 folks have to at the very least recognize its possible. I see more evidence that its one of the 16 ATC brands, and belongs, than it's own separate brand and should be not part of the other 15 brands. Common sense...

[DixieBaseball]

And a quick bump for simply an image of these beautiful paper thin cards as my last post was certainly long in the tooth and most folks don't care and would rather just look at the card! Here ya go...

[Leon]

Burdick knew about T213 and cataloged them correctly. As much as anyone, this is a general statement to T206 guys, wants to twist and turn his thinking on the subject, it is clearly laid out in his ACC. All anyone really has to do is read what he wrote and not read anything else into it. I am of the understanding Burdick knew he made mistakes, knew he didn't know a fraction of what there was about cards, but he knew T213 well enough to separate them from T206. He should be commended instead of questioned, on this series, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Pete,
Yes, a possible small find might up the ante a bit, but I think time is all we need as to me there is more information and indication these are one of the brands that Burdick simply missed when he established 15 brands as T206. I think Leon's post with Burdick's "T213" information is even more viable to the debate b/c he addresses T213 as only 2 Types. "name in brown" and "name in blue". In 1960 he made no mention of the Type 3 Blue letter Coupon from 1919. I think that is one bit of information that is key in analyzing how much he really knew about them, and then to pour more water on his knowledge of Coupons, he didn't even know how many cards were in the Type 1 or Type 2 set as indicated with no number given (See below image/info Leon posted earlier in this thread) when he clearly gives a number for other sets like T209 Type 1 "16 known" and Type 2 "213 known" He didn't put any number beside the Coupons because he didn't have enough information and the rarity of Type 1 Coupons... (He didn't have a handle on 68 known subjects, nor did he even wager a "known" guess like he did with Type 1 and 2 T209s.) Totally understandable as these rascals are simply super rare. One other bit of information I have discovered about his "travels to the South" were he may have never stumbled upon many Type 1 Coupons b/c from what I have read about his Card find travels, he spend most of his travel in retirement areas of Florida and up and down the East coast. He even makes mention in one of his letters to Lionel Carter he was generally not too pleased with the amount of material available on his trips South. (Perhaps South only meant Florida and he actually didn't make it over to New Orleans area where the Coupons were probably more prevalent. He certainly has documented his trips and it seems he viewed going South as going down to Florida. (Not Louisiana) Totally understandable. With the rarity of the card, there probably were not a whole lot of cards that moved around the U.S. back in the day. Times have certainly changed. UPS for example was just setting up service in the South in the late 60's. (65-69 in Tennessee, Alabama, Louisiana, etc.) so basically the mail was it. No internet, limited communication as well as folks wrote letters. Limited phone use... I think there is way more evidence of Coupon simply being a brand he missed and I think the Type 2 and 3 were the reason as it threw him off with the blue lettering, date of release, etc. Anyway - The debate rages on. I think T206 folks have to at the very least recognize its possible. I see more evidence that its one of the 16 ATC brands, and belongs, than it's own separate brand and should be not part of the other 15 brands. Common sense...

[ullmandds]

cue the broken record!

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Leon

Burdick knew about T213 and cataloged them correctly. As much as anyone, this is a general statement to T206 guys, wants to twist and turn his thinking on the subject, it is clearly laid out in his ACC. All anyone really has to do is read what he wrote and not read anything else into it. I am of the understanding Burdick knew he made mistakes, knew he didn't know a fraction of what there was about cards, but he knew T213 well enough to separate them from T206. He should be commended instead of questioned, on this series, in my opinion.

Leon,

To question Burdick is not to disrespect him. It's simply a discussion. He's an amazing person who contributed to the hobby in a tremendous way.

What did he specifically write about T213's? Perhaps I have glossed over something.

Thanks, J

[Leon]

You already re-posted all that needs to be. Thanks!!

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Leon,

To question Burdick is not to disrespect him. It's simply a discussion. He's an amazing person who contributed to the hobby in a tremendous way.

What did he specifically write about T213's? Perhaps I have glossed over something.

Thanks, J

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Leon

You already re-posted all that needs to be. Thanks!!

Thanks Leon - Nice touch.

[Jobu]

One question and one addition to the T206/T213-1 conversation:

Question: Jeremy, do you have a list of the tougher T213-1s? Is it based solely on the pop reports?

Comment: This has also been pointed out in previous threads, but Burdick also listed T213 as being issued in 1914-1915. Had he known the T213-1s were issued in 1910 he may have done things differently.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Steve, That Starr Type 1 Coupon is uber rare. 2 graded. Final price didn't surprise me at all. I was missing the Starr card in my near complete set of Type 1's before I threw in the towel. Never saw one come up in 10 years. Boom. There it is now! I think $1K is a bargain for the 16th T206 Brand!

BTW - See post #1 in this Thread...

[RCMcKenzie]

I know the Rhoades is difficult, even if it's only anecdotal. Here's a T213-1 Starr...

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Jobu

One question and one addition to the T206/T213-1 conversation:

Question: Jeremy, do you have a list of the tougher T213-1s? Is it based solely on the pop reports?

Comment: This has also been pointed out in previous threads, but Burdick also listed T213 as being issued in 1914-1915. Had he known the T213-1s were issued in 1910 he may have done things differently.

Hey Bryan,
The Type 1 Coupons are much like the pattern of Red Sun's, but even more rare. They are all extremely difficult, and depending what 20 year period you start collecting them, you will get a different pattern of rare for the cards you do and don't acquire. I collected them hard for 15 years and little pattern emerged because they just hardly ever came up for sale. The Pop reports are a nice guide and do give indication of some that have about half the known examples of others, but there are as much raw as graded out there so who knows... I think the Red Sun's exists in that 6-15 range of each card raw and graded per player and believe the Type 1's are in that 3-9 range with perhaps a few players having a few more examples over that range estimate. This is my own semi-scientific idea based off tracking raw card sales and graded pop reports.

Rob, may be able to add some more color to the conversation....
Great Starr btw - Rob! Congrats on the Hickman pickup. The whole collecting Coupon world will keep an eye out for your Rhoades. You are almost there and will be the 2nd person known to complete the 68 card mini-monster!

Cheers -

[DixieBaseball]

I found this article very interesting that just came out by Sports Collectors Digest and some nice added pics to take you through the 19th century era of tobacco.

One part of the article I found particularly interesting and supports my theory about Burdick and how he labeled Coupons Type 1,2,3 and potentially lumped Type 1's in with Type 2 and 3's incorrectly is how he labeled Four Base Hits. Here is the excerpt from their article :

Four Base Hits The Four Base Hits are listed as type two N690 cards but are not a Charles Gross Co. product. No tobacco package that carried these cards is known to exist. Their likeness to the Kalamazoo Bats cards would suggest a similar sales box. It is also possible that these cards were produced by The August Beck Co. One card from this set is shown for identification.
- See more at: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...he-tobacco-era

Again, respectfully Burdick is a Hobby icon and I am not challenging what he means to our collecting world with his catalog system, but updates will eventually be made and adopted.

[edjs]

Wow, the Marquard in Sterling last night! I thought I might make a run at it, but that thought didn't last long! I hope mine go like that, if I were to ever sell.

[DeanH3]

I noticed the ending price as well. It's a nice looking 3 for such a tough issue. Are these rare beauties set to skyrocket?