Red Hindu's more rare than Uzit?

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Posted By: Jerry

Based on very recent auction results the T206 Red Hindu back appears to carry a higher back premium than Uzit. A few examples are the SGC 40 and PSA 4 samples in the REA auction going for approx. $3,000 and $4,000 respectively including the buyers premium. On the other hand, an SGC 70 Uzit in the Mastro auction just went for $3,000 including the buyer's premium.

Based on perceived expectations I don't believe many collectors would have expected an SGC 40 Red Hindu to sell almost in line with an SGC 70 Uzit.

Just curious what others think about this observation. Have collectors come to realize that Red Hindu is in fact more rare than Uzit or is this just an anomaly?

Thanks,

Jerry

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Posted By: MVSNYC

IMO, it's an anomaly...UZIT is definitely rarer than Red Hindu...from what i've been seeing, over the last few years, REA commands the most ridiculous prices imaginable...there were tons of lots that went thru the roof, and i think alot of that has to do with "addicted" collectors getting wrapped-up in the auction and wanting a "piece" of the action...so they OVERBID on items...

there is no other explanation for red hindus going for such lofty prices...i know that i even got a little caught-up in the excitement and overbid on MANY lots, and was outbid on all but ONE.

i am very happy for Rob, prices realized were simply astounding...

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Posted By: Sean

I also think in the past year Red Hindu's have come to be accepted has being rarer than originally though, so it's kind of the new hot back.

It's soo hot that Hermes will be making a Red Hindu Birkin!

sdbh
I might have made up that last part

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here is a current list of confirmed Red HINDU cards from a previous post on this forum. The 46 cards listed here are
exceeded by the known 51 - T206's having UZIT backs. However, UZIT cards appear to be somewhat tougher to find.

Possible total = 110 Subjects....however, unless we find some more, I am beginning to think that a fair number of the
remaining 64 subjects are "No-Prints". Also, since 5 of the 6 super-prints are available with Red HINDU backs, I expect
that the 6th super-print (Matty-dark cap) will eventually show up with a Red HINDU back).

46 confirmed Red HINDU's

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chi)
Burch (fldg)
Chance (port-yellow)....super-print
Chase (blue)...............super-print
Chase (dark cap).........super-print
Cobb (red)..................super-print
Cobb (bat off)
Crandall (cap)..............460-only
Davis (A's)
Devore.......................460-only
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Duffy..........................460-only
Elberfeld (Wash-fldg)
Evers (Chi-bat).............super-print
Ford...........................460-only
Gandil.........................460-only
Geyer.........................460-only
Griffith (bat)
Hummell.......................460-only
Johnson (pitch)
Joss (pitch)
Kleinow (Boston)............460-only
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitch)
McGraw (glove hip).........460-only
O'Leary (hds/knees)
Pfeffer..........................460-only
Pfeister (throwing)
Rucker (throw)
Seymour (throw)
Sheckard (glove)............460-only
Snodgrass (fldg)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fldg)
Sweeney (NY)
Tannehill (Chi-throw).......460-only
Wagner (bat/right)
Wheat...........................460-only
Willis (throw)
CYoung (glove)


TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"It's soo hot that Hermes will be making a Red Hindu Birkin!"

Sean- my guess is that i'm one of just a few people on here who got this reference...

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Posted By: Sean

I figured that much.

How was Mexico City? Fancy Hermes store there!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks for asking...my last month was filled with travel (mostly for work), Paris, LA, Mexico, Nicaragua, North Carolina...Mexico City was one of my favorites, very cool (eurpoean) vibe. amazing food as well!

i'll be home in NYC for awhile now, so i'm looking forward to relaxing and playing with cards.

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Posted By: Sean

We (my wife and I) love Mexico City, and are heading down for a couple of weeks. Nothing like staying at the W for 10 days.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

we stayed right on the Zocolo in the Majestic Hotel...it is a very old and historic hotel...

you must eat at (if you haven't already) Cafe Tacuba & Opera Bar

enjoy!

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Posted By: Jerry

Maybe this can be explained if you look at the T206 Museum back scarcity rankings vs. the back multipliers. Red Hindu ranks 9th on the back scarcity chart right after Uzit, but yet the Red Hindu back multiplier is a 17, which is the same as Lenox. I think we can all agree that the 17 multiplier is way off. It appears that the Red Hindu back multiplier is becoming more in line with the Uzit multiplier which is around a 30.

One other related topic I also wanted to get feedback on is relative scarcity of Red Hindu's in high grades (i.e. ex and above). I believe the highest graded example is a PSA 7. I only aware of a handful of Red Hindu's that grade a 5. Do others feel that this back is super tough in EX and almost impossible in EX+ condition?

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Posted By: barrysloate

The red Hindus I've gotten over the last few years were no higher than VG, and some were Good.

And while we are on the subject, I think two red Hindu Hall of Famers are currently on the auction block.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i have been collecting rare backs in high-grade for years...relatively speaking, i have a difficult time finding ultra high-grades of certain brands...Hindu, Uzit (even tho i did once own a PSA 7 Marquard), Lenox, Drum, etc...i have most of those in mid-grades, but they become exponentally tuffer above VG-EX.

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Posted By: Sean

Did Hindu's come in cig packs or pouches? One reason Drum's are hard in VG/EX+ has to do with packaging.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Michael - there has to be a reason why certain backs are never found in high grade. Do you have a theory? Were they made with inferior quality paper?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Barry- i don't have a theory, but if i had to formulate one, i would say that it is the same reason that T206 Wagners are almost always found in lower grades: rare cards were usually handled more over the years, changed hands alot, were simply physically held and handled by many people, thus creases, rounded corners, etc.

for the record, they all were printed on the same stock.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It is interesting how every time a Wagner is found in an old family collection it is always in very low grade. I think if you were collecting T206 at the time of issue (no, they weren't called that), and you had a Wagner, you were the only one on the block who did. So it became a conversation piece of sorts, and everyone wanted to see (and handle) it.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

There just seems to be a lot of "HYPE" on Red Hindus right now, and has been for nearly a year as best I can tell. Someone sold a real beater ungraded on the BST forum the other day - what they sold it for I don't know but they asked $800. It might be the same one on ebay right now - not sure.

Uzit just doesn't seem to have any "hype" going for it at the moment. I'd like to have the 36 card back set but you have to find one that isn't hyped to make it reasonable. Maybe Barry's...I'll be watching.

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Posted By: John

I would say there’s nothing to debate here I think both backs are 100% equal in rarity I really don’t think one is more rare than the other.

Just looking over the super set list we have actually confirmed more of the possible Uzit players than we have Red Hindu players. Then taking into consideration all of the cards surveyed about 16k cards the numbers for Red Hindu and Uzit are almost neck and neck with 28 Uzits and 33 Red Hindus.

Both are very scarce backs that are tough to find, I would say that I have seen more VGEX-EX Uzit’s over the years vs. Red Hindu’s.

My theory on condition of these cards is simply time, all of these backs were printed in much lower quantity than any of the main stream backs such as Sweet Caporal or Piedmont and many were really printed towards the middle or tail end of the ATC project. Take lower numbers, collectors mishandling and almost 100yrs of cards getting tossed around and destroyed and the numbers will show lower grade surviving examples as compared to higher grade examples. If Sweet Caporal was as short printed as Uzit or Red Hindu then we would be asking the same questions on why it was so tough to find a nice Sweet Caporal back.

Now with Polar Bear that’s a different story packed with moist loose tobacco no wonder so many examples have stains and are creased as they were pouch vs. boxed, you really want a challange try to find a NM7 or NMMT8 Polar Bear ultra clean with no stains etc.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If you are patient, you can find a sharp looking Red HINDU card.

I acquired the Red HINDU Donlin in the mid-1980's.....for a mere $20.

I acquired the nicer Red HINDU McGraw in 2000.....for a nice price of $150.






T-Rex TED

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Posted By: MVSNYC

John- guess i'm a show-off at heart...

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Posted By: John

Mike I'd be telling a fib if I didn't have that card in the back of my mind when I typed that final line...LOL

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I wonder if some of the rarer backs (excluding color variations) and overprints were printed as a result of the impending breakup as opposed to being truncated when the dissolution of ATC was ordered, or at least expected. If ATC knew the dissolution was coming even though the verdict had not yet been reached and perhaps knowing all the Piedmonts and Sweet Caps going to major factories had been shipped out already, using up a fraction of a normal run of sheets with poor selling brands on the back was a way to burn off excess card stock.

I sometimes wonder if a final run of PB's were actually the very last backs to be printed "on purpose" (i.e. a redesigned sheet with Demmitt and O'Hara variations were just the beginning of the next phase of changeouts on the sheets) and some of the rarer backs were just using up already (obversely) printed stock when the trust fell apart.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Sean - to answer your question, both Hindus and Drums came in cigarette pack configurations. Out of the T-206 issue, only Polar Bear came in tobacco packs... all of the rest were packaged inside cigarette boxes.

Follow-up:
In your original post above, you stated "One reason Drum's are hard in VG/EX+ has to do with packaging." I am not sure if you are refering to the Drum loose tobacco pouches you sometimes see but if so, they were not part of the card distribution. The Drum tobacco pouches were produced by the ATC and the brand (ie, Drum) was the same brand as the Drum backs, but the T-206 cards were packaged in Drum cigarette boxes, not tobacco pouches. If you refer to the OCB article I wrote on T-206 packs, you will see a photo of the only Drum cigarette pack (albeit only part of it) I have ever seen.

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Posted By: Scott B.

Jon,

I have checked your T206 tobacco pack book, the image of the "Drum cigarette pack" doesn't seem to be from an actual tobacco pack. It looks like an cut out ads. I found an image of a Drum pouch booklet that shows a pack of Drum pouch and a statement "For Pipe or Cigarette" which matches what T206 Drum back refers as "Drum cigarettes". I do believe Drums came in Drum pouches similar to Polar Bear pouches and not from cigarette pack configurations. Keep in mind it is very difficult to find clean Drum backs as well.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

The Drum pouches are too small to have ever contained the cards. Also, the pack image from the book resides in a board member's collection and I hope he chimes in since I believe the image was from the front of the box that was cut out to make it more symetrical. I am 99% positive Drum's never came with the pouches although I could be wrong.

Just from an advertising perspective, why would the back of the cards advertise Drum Cigarettes when, in fact, the cards were packaged with tobacco? Furthermore, having found proof of a Drum cigarette product just lends more credence to this theory.

Edited to add: I don't have a scan of the Drum image I am referring to above on hand, however if you go to Trae's site, www.t206.org and look at "galleries" and then "Drum", you will see the image I am referring to. Note that on the "ad" or "box top", whichever is your belief, the image states "20 for 5 cents". This is clearly, without question, a reference to the number of cigarettes packaged within the cigarette back. Even if this is an ad, it shows that there was a Drum cigarette product aside from the tobacco pouch. The "20 for 5 cents" could, in no way, be referring to tobacco. Also, note that the font on the image matches that of the Drum back almost identically. Again, I feel completely comfortable in my belief that Drum t206's were not packaged in a tobacco pouch but rather Drum Cigarette packs.

Also, I don't find it odd that Drum cigarette packs have not surfaced to date. As a rule of thumb, the rarer the back, the rarer a surviving pack. In fact, I've never come across a Hindu pack although we know what they look like from the ads. Also, Broadleaf's are exceedingly rare in which I have only confirmed 2 that exist from the proper time period.

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Posted By: Scott B.

I don't believe the Drum pouches were too small to fit tobacco card(s) in it. Take a look at the 10count Piedmont pack that they have on T206 Museum site. The card was barely fit inside the pack too.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_16.html

I was also on your side thinking Drum backs can only be found in cigarette packs until I found that Drum pouch card that indicated the tobacco was referred to use for pipe or cigarette.

I guess we can't rule out the chance of pulling tobacco card(s) from Drum pouches. Similar to no one can be 100% certain whether Cobb backs were once packaged in Cobb Tin or not.

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Posted By: Trae R.

I'm posting this on behalf of Jon Canfield.






---
"There ain't much to being a ballplayer, if you're a ballplayer."
-Honus Wagner

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Posted By: Art M.

First to answer the main question of this thread - I believe that the Uzit backs are tougher than the Red Hindu's. Both are very difficult but the Uzit back is tougher.

Second topic is the Drum tobacco/Drum cigarettes discussion. I own the Drum cigarettes label pictured above and also pictured in the Jon Canfield book. The T206 cards were issued with Drum "cigarettes", not in the tobacco pouches. The Drum tobacco pouches pre-date the Drum cigarettes. Like Jon, I have never seen a Drum cigarettes package. My Drum cigarettes label is a large 6" wide by 3" high and I believe was a label from a case or carton of Drum cigarettes packs.

Art M.

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Posted By: Scott B.

What do you mean by "The Drum tobacco pouches pre-date the Drum cigarettes."?? As far as I know those Drum pouches has 1910 tax stamp on them and some of those even have 1910 or 1911 overprint on the tax stamp.

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Posted By: lindwayjc

I'm wondering why Drum only put cards in their brand for less than two years total between the 206 and 205 sets without a single non-sport issue?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Anytime the rare back topic comes up, I get an image in my head that Uzit, Hindu, etc, were the 1910 equivalent of Virginia Slims Light Menthol 100's today- meaning- nobody smoked them, hence the relative scarcity. (I'm sure this isn't a new revelation).

I use this logic to intellectualize myself away from the rare backs (I was, briefly, fanatical about them). I have convinced myself that because none of the cool people smoked Uzits in 1910, I shouldn't try to get their discarded cards.

Please feel free to use this rationale to talk yourself out of pursuing rare backs...