Did everyone catch this story, I missed it when it aired

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Posted By: George L

http://videos.espn.com/m/video/20920180/outside_the_lines_card_games.htm?pageid=13901&seek =239.319>



I must be working too hard lately, I hadnt seen this til tonight, always entertaining to watch this story.

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Posted By: George L

finding the original discussion when these guys were battling about their Honus card. Could anyone post the original thread for me.

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Posted By: Adam

Thanks for posting that George, what an entertaining T206 Wagner story/clip.


ps- There is no way on earth that card is real . . . it is so obvious even from the video shots of it.

Edited to add: Why doesn't PSA just get some great, free press from this and allow a one time exception to the rule of no one being present when a card is graded. Have the owners there in the room, have that antique guy from upstate New York there, have the paper and ink experts there, and have as many media folks as possible, all with news cameras rolling, and let every single PSA grader give their opinion on the card.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Oh God, not these guys again...

Joe Orlando should just let them into the grading room, so they can physically see it get rejected (without getting "scratched")...

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

The first ever Honnnus Wagner....card! I think I hear Bootsy Collins calling. Go jam with the Rubber Band!

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Posted By: Scott Levy

I've never seen this story before....it's interesting though. It would be even more interesting if the card had been a better repro. While we all know that this card is without question a reproduction, it is curious to see paper and printing experts stating their opinions of this being from around the time of T206.

Does anyone know when the first reproductions of Honus were produced and do people think it might be an early copy or simply a run of the mill 1970s or later aged one?

-SGL

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Posted By: David McDonald

Here's a couple of links to old threads about these jokers. There may be other, earlier threads but the search function sucks greatly and this was all I could come up with.

Leon: How about Cobb and Edwards for after-dinner speakers at the next Net54 National dinner!

http://tinyurl.com/6evatd New Wagner Find July 31, 2006
http://tinyurl.com/6pv7nb T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont August 8, 2006

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Posted By: Donavon Arabie

Anybody else notice the Hassan triple folders reprints in the background of Cobb during the interview? LMAO. Here's a hint....If you're going to try to pass a fake Wagner as real, don't have reprints from the same era looming behind you in the interview.

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Posted By: leon

Scott- it is thought that the back of this fake Wagner is actually a real back and the paper experts tested the back and not the front. So that part of the card might be real....Obviously it's a poor fake but they might have got the back paper testing right.

David M. - I think it would be interesting to have them speak at our Net54 Dinner. If they were there earlier this year they could have spoke right before Doug got up and talked about the 20-30 Wagners they have sold....Maybe they would try to consign it? A few more beer and I would have taken it regards

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

On a side note, how stupid was that David Copperfield stunt? The whole stunt was obviously done using a very evident reprint. You'd think they would have tried a little harder to make it appear to be the actual card.

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Posted By: Steve F

It's gotta be racism, pure and simple.

http://www.bobconnelly.com/honuswagnert206.html



Added explanation, My comment here, while intended to be a sarcastic one based on the Auctioneers' comment in the video, could be taken out of context. Suddenly, after reading Freddie's sickening post of two years ago, now rings somewhat true. I won't change this comment, but hope it's understandable to the reader now.

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Posted By: leon

So far, from the last line in that story, Cobb got it right. The card is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That value stands at 0.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Very interesting video. If I understand correctly, these guys claim that the font discrepancy constitutes are rare error? That's a good one. What I find unfortunate though is that certain Net54ers saw fit to stoop to racial comments in the prior thread. It surely undermines the credibility of the entire forum in this matter.

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Posted By: jay wolt

"Joe Orlando should just let them into the grading room, so they can physically see it get rejected (without getting "scratched")..."

Mike - don't think any legit grading company wants anything to do
with this, real or not. If a grading company rejects it, claims from
the submitters will carry the race card and therefore get more press
then this card or the owners deserves.

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Posted By: Steve F

Kenneth, I noticed how they played that angle ('... Projects, mooching off whitey.')when showing the screenshots. It was a trashy comment and sure detracts from the boards credibility. Who was the redneck that posted it?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Bob Connelly thinks its a 4 according to psa standards and someone else agreed? He honestly looked at the card just for grading purposes and came up with a vg/ex grade? Is he serious? I don't think anyone submitter could get a 2 on that card,look at the front on the blown up scan from his site.

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Posted By: Jantz

Steve F. - To answer your question, if you scroll up to David McDonald's post in this thread and go into the second link that he has attached, you will find who posted those comments near the bottom of the old thread.


Jantz

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Posted By: Alan

Leon - Do try to get those guys to talk at the Net54 dinner. If not, at least have Bob Connelly talk.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I would only be interested in a seminar given by these two gentlemen if they bring along their Pokemon cards for show n' tell. It all hinges on the Pokemon.

For our Simpsons fans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Z_k50ltkY

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Posted By: Steve F

Thankyou for that link Jantz. Sorry that I missed the opportunity to flame this miscreant on first go around. I didn't read furthur, but I hope someone else did. If not, that's a shame in itself.


*Freddie Sawyer*, If you're reading this.

What a hateful remark for the entire sports world to read. Wake the f*ck up. Civilized folk don't act that way now, haven't for decades in fact. Finally, you got your fifteen minutes of fame and you let your butt do the talking. As wrong as these two entrepreneur's are, and we can all can tell a liar when we see them... You owe an apology to this Board and the black community. Of course, I'm the fool for expecting a remorseful response from this dinosaur.

Incidentally, my 'white' (Irish, Italians, Polish, Jewish and Heinz) friends were poor and lived in the projects. Yet they had more class and tact than that, as mischievous city kids! Steve F. fdnyladder7@comcast.net

Pardon, my rant. Back to the discussion.

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Posted By: leon

I went back and looked at the post that was made by "Freddie" with the racial remarks. I have the ability to edit that statement but I am not sure I should? I realize it's bad but I don't really edit statements unless it's really extraordinary. I prefer to let folks hang themselves. Even though his words were poorly chosen I do think there is opposite racism in this country. Those comments were unneeded though....Should I edit the remarks?

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Posted By: Zach S.

Man, I remember reading all of that when it was first posted. What a mess!

I don't think you should edit it though. It's already out there... plus like you said let people hang themselves. I know you RARELY edit anyone's posts and I think that's part of the beauty of this site.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

I would be against editing that or almost any other post, with very few exceptions. Better to let people's posts speak for themselves and let those reading the board make their own judgments.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Agreed. And if some folks (or reporters with nothing better to do) wish to condemn the whole collecting community based on the ignorance of one of its members, feel free to do so, but take a good look in the mirror first.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Gee, I don't know Leon. Maybe it would be a good idea for you to go back at least 2+ years and start to sanitize all the stupid things that have been said on this board. (That might tie up enough of your time to keep you off Ebay and let some other people win some auctions. )

Trust your first judgement and let it be.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Duly note that the PSA card graders/authenticators are not told who submitted the card they are examining. This has been one of PSA's specific and spelled out policies for years. Thus, the submitters' sex/religion/race/nationality/creed/politics/hair color/income/etc is not a factor in the grading and authentication of a card.

If a card collector was sincerely worried that sexual orientation, ethnic or religious bigotry was an issue, guess what he'd do? He'd submit his cards to PSA, knowing that the graders would be completely ignorant of this things.

I submitted an autograph to PSA/DNA and at no time and no where did they ask for my ethnic background, religion, politics, etc. As I submitted the autograph on company account, they didn't even know my sex.

Someone's claim that that she can't get a genuine sports card authenticated due to ethnics or sex or religion is, to be charitable, weak. As Ross Perot would say, that dog won't hunt.

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Posted By: leon

My first instincts are right the vast majority of the time. The remarks will stay.....It really is a pet peeve of mine to edit or delete posts...so I do try very hard not to. That being said I have been wrong before and it never hurts to get others' opinions. carry on....

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Posted By: JimB

I find it unbelievable that these guys are still being taken seriously enough to get on the news. You would think that when a new agency cannot find one reputable and knowledgeable person in the hobby to stand behind their claims of authenticity that it might be a sign that the card is a fake.

Didn't somebody who works a few blocks away from them claim that his fake Wagner that he displayed in his office was stolen not long before they showed up? I hope my memory is serving me correctly.
JimB

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Posted By: Zach S.

[I find it unbelievable that these guys are still being taken seriously enough to get on the news.]


Come on, Jim... don't you WATCH the news?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I remember when one of these guys came on the board to defend himself I made him an offer: send the card to PSA or SGC, and if it came back real, I promised to give him $10,000. And if it came back fake, he would owe me $1.

Seems like a bet someone would jump at if he believed he had the real thing. Never heard back from him.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

That this story got so much play in the first place is a result of the school of thought in journalism that an attempt should be made to present both sides of issues as equally credible, with no judgments made on the part of the reporter as to who is right or wrong.

In many cases that is a worthy endeavor, but there are also times where one side is so objectively and clearly in the right that the journalists need to state as much - this is one of them.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Some people you suspect are ignorant; others open their mouths and confirm it. Let the dumbness speak for itself.

As far as the stories on the card go, I think we are at the point where fair reporting has to include appropriate skepticism and direct confrontation, Mike Wallace style. Everyone in the card business who could make these guys money--every reputable dealer, auctioneer, etc.--would kill to sell a legit Wagner. So who do these guys go to: some no-name in a strip mall. Everyone in the hobby tells these guys that the only way the card gets sold is if it is passed on by a major third party grader. Despite that, the card owners will not let it be submitted to a TPG, supposedly out of concerns for the card's safety. Yet they are willing to have various forensic "experts" poke around the card. Of course, those "experts" are their hand-picked people, are not associated with the hobby and carry no weight among the people who might successfully sell or actually buy the card. In my business we call that "whore-shopping"; if you try hard enough you can find someone with credentials to pass as an expert who will say just about anything you want.

All I see is a couple of very clever con men trying to throw up just enough credible information to get someone who is wealthy, greedy and ignorant enough to put up the money to buy the card at a "bargain" price, at which they will reluctantly sell it.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- they won't give up the card for thirty minutes while a grader assesses it, but they left it in Connally's safe for what may have been months. Seems like all three of them are in cahoots.

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Posted By: PC

I like the part where the buyer explains that he paid $1800 for the card at an estate sale in 1984, without even knowing who Honus Wagner was. The guy is/was a junk collector-hoarder, and we're expected to believe he forked over $1800 24+ years ago for a card that he had no idea about, value or otherwise.

He couldn't be more disingenuous.

Also, let it not be lost in the discussion that race was first raised by the original poster in that thread. Stupid and unnecessary comments often invite more stupid and unnecessary comments.

And I couldn't agree more that at this point in the saga, journalists should be more aggressive with these guys and the facts, and avoid floating the same rehashed red herrings (including the race card) that these guys are using to keep the story alive.

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Posted By: Adam

"I remember when one of these guys came on the board to defend himself I made him an offer: send the card to PSA or SGC, and if it came back real, I promised to give him $10,000."


I will match Barry's $10,000 with $10,000 of my own money.

If they get that exact card graded by SGC or PSA and it comes back with a number grade . . . hell, even an "authentic" grade (perhaps there is a slight trim none of us can pick up from the scans/photos/video LOL), I will write them a $10,000 check.

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Posted By: Red

I know REA still has the million from the Doyle challenge. That would certainly get some of the reporters in these stories interested.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I believe an owner was more than once quoted as saying the card is worth what someone's willing to pay for it.

Well, it's been on the market for several years now and no one's paid for it.

If one side in a fierce argument says a piece of memorabilia is worthless and the other side no one wants to buy it, aren't they arguing for the identical financial valuation?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Wow! I don't remember that post and I don't remember a "Freddie Sawyer" on this board either. I also would like to apologize to Michael O'Keeffe for calling him a liar when he wrote about racist comments coming from this board. I didn't post in that thread so I may have just completely missed it.

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Posted By: Steve

While some here may have made racist remarks it stemmed from the owner of the card
saying if he was white the card would have sold or something like that. he brought up the race card first and people were simply remarking about that.



Not saying that it is ok.


Steve

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

There is NO excuse for Mr Sawyer's comments.