FInal Sale

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

One of the country's most distinguised dealers/auctioneers was speaking with us
about the large number of estates that he had handled during the past three years.

We asked him about the extent to which major collectors plan for the unexpected and for their
own passing. His response was quite interesting, indeed.

"I hear from estate attorneys all the time and our name actually appeals in
a number of wills..." That said, there are number of older collectors who
passed and had made no plans.

Our thought is that the disposal of an estate is a negotiation and that someone
with an important collection (say $ 250,000 or more) should not only designate an
auction house to sell the items, but also should articulate terms and have a letter
of agreement attached to their will.

What are your thoughts on the matter?


America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Brian

I think every collection is important.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Of course, every collection is important to the collector. However, if one wants a formal
letter of agreement with preferred terms for an event that may not occur for 10 or 20 years,
it would only be approrpriate for an auction house to agree to said preferred terms if
the collection in question was of significant value.

Important collection refers to economic value not to the concept of "beauty in the eye
of the beholder."

America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Certainly unecessary and impractical. Who's to say the auction house will exist in 10 years or that it will have credibility [see the current meltdown of Escala.]

Leave your collection to someone. Tell that someone what to do [call a collecting friend, name some good Auction Houses...]Keep things simple; don't involve lawyers, contracts and fees that are really not needed.

Frank

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Posted By: Cat

An issue that has been discussed recently and I have put some thought into.

First of all, I am 44 and my heir (son) is 15. My mother is still alive. My bigger issue is that I don't have a will, but I will solve that shortly. The baseball cards portion of my estate I hope would be enjoyed by my son rather than automatically sold off. If he chooses to sell them at some point, he has a basic knowledge of what they are worth and mechanisms to buy/sell. Certainly someone (himself or someone helping him) could make the mistake of listing everything on EBay or attempting to send everything to an auction house. I do have some newer cards that aren't appropriate for an auction house...but that will work itself out. The key to what I have taught him and my mother is: do not let ANYONE talk you into buying them directly. It is not always apparent which cards are valuable. I have pulled out my PSA 7 Toleteros Gibson and told them: "you would never know it, but this is a valuable card."

All my cards are graded and he, and my mother, understands that the flips hold key information. So, as an example, instead of selling my Anson N172 card on Ebay listed as "Really Old Baseball Card," he would probably simply type the heading on the flip and that would be fine. That's a good example of a card that's not appropriate for EBay but so be it.

First, I think I am hesitant to direct my son to an auction house or any other sells solution since I am hopeful that he will enjoy them for awhile. Second, I hope that I am not going to die any time soon, so I have this fear that I will construct a will today, never to be revised, and 40 years from now nobody will have heard of Mastro Auctions (or similar auction house). Third, right now, and hopefully in the future the cards are a small portion of the estate, so if he only gets 75% of the possible realizable value of the cards because he didn't use the best possible liquidation solution, then oh well.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Probably not a bad idea to spell it out in a will or, minimally, your spouse or significant other should have good understanding of what is the method of selling that will maximize the return. In my case, my good friend would be my wife's advisor in the event of my untimely demise. He understands the value and business of cards/memorabilia.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Everyone should have a will, regardless if they have a collection or not, Brucey.
Also, a will or trust is not a "letter of agreement." Not really sure what a "letter of agreement" really means either.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

First of all, Cat, get that will done asap. Even if you only have one heir, anything that is not in his name in a joint tenants ownership relationship will have to go through probate I believe. Trust me (no pun intended), you don't want that.

I think Bruce has a strong point as modified by Frank and Cat. It's easy to assume we'll be around forever but you don't know what tomorrow will bring obviously. My belief is that all of your plans should be laid out to some degree, either in writing or orally to an heir that would get the cards anyway. As for an auction house disappearing overnight, fair point -- but that's why one updates one's will or instructions. Just keep upating as things change. The last thing anyone wants is their priceless collection (to them) to end up in the wrong hands. Of course, this applies to everything in one's estae.

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Posted By: Cat

Jeff:

You are so right as to how things can change.

I thought I had my informal plan worked out perfectly. I trust my widowed mother 1000% and therefore have put every asset, life insurance, retirement fund, etc. etc. in her name upon my death...to be passed along to my son appropriately during his young years and then the balance when he was out of college. I did not want my son's mom to get her hands on anything. There was always one caveat with my mom: we can't fly on the same plane together since it is a real mess if we both die (not wild about riding in car together but let's be practical and hopefully one of us survives in a violent crash). Now we have plans to go back East and my mom is insistent that we fly together. DAMN IT!!!

To top things off, now my mom is seriously hanging out with some older gentleman and I am fearful that she may marry this guy. I die. She dies. My son gets nothing that I have been busting my tail to accumulate in the last 20 years.

I already have my call in to my attorney.

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Posted By: leon

Far before any banner ads or anything with this board I told my wife what to do if God forbid something happen to me. I called her into the room just now and asked her about it. She said "You told me to call Mastro"....I said "perfect". I trust the Mastro team as much as anyone....If they aren't around she's got a few back up names.

I think laying out simple instructions on a piece of paper would be a good idea too....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Most collectors have one or more close friends in the hobby that a spouse can go to for advice regarding the disposal of a collection.

But putting it in writing and updating it periodically is the best way to go.

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Posted By: Steve f

My sons have been instructed to contact Sloate Auctions, Brooklyn. At risk of violating the Privacy Act, He's recently had a physical exam and recieved a clean bill of health.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thank you Steve...but my cardiologist says I should exercise more. Is watching TV considered exercise? I had to get up to find the remote control.

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Posted By: Cobby33

We think they should all be donated to The Human Fund, in care of us.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Everything sold as one near/complete type lot, or broken down and let the next crazy try and assemble what you have done??


Daniel

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Leon --when I called my wife in the room and asked her the same question she responded " call the Meastro --then added --" but what if he is at his home in Tuscany ? " I think I will come up with a plan B.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bill, I don't know where you got that from. Everyone knows that there are no villas left for rental.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Well actually there is one --see Giggio he will tell you " the keys ,here are the keys. You give me the check. Two million lira. Seventeen hundred Americana. Molto generoso."

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Posted By: Mike

In my will and estate plans, all remaining baseball related collectibles are to be given to my son. Not a huge problem. My attorney and wife also have the name of the dealer, who will intelligently, and "honestly" help them dispose of it if they should so choose. Tax issues to dealt with by my CPA. Not a huge issue. No different than art work, or valuable collectibles. I also have half a house filled with Victorian, and Civil war collectibles and furniture. And antique car.

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Posted By: Steve f

No Mr Cichio, I didnt want to RENT one... I just wanted to know if there were any for rent.

Si, si... Thissa one.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have nothing to add..you've done the whole bit

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Posted By: Cat

I guess I missed that Seinfeld episode.

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Posted By: Cobby33

What music video featured The Maestro?

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Posted By: Bob

I think the key is to have children who love each other and most importantly get along. I have told my wife and children that each child should divide up and take whatever cards they like to remember their old man and sell off the rest. My wife knows of several friends I have in the hobby who could give her specific advice as to how to sell the cards anf the nuts and bolts involved.
My younger daughter has told me that as far as she is concerned, her one half of the cards will never be sold and will remain together. Personally I hope we don't face this problem for at least 30 years

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Cobby, that's easy. Though he wasn't the Maestro in that video; probably closer to Niedermeyer in Animal House. Twisted Sister, We're Not Gonna Take It.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Wow! In record time, no less. Forgot about Animal House!

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Posted By: Bill Todd

Cat,

My wife and I just got back from having our documents updated. You can set up a revocable trust, put all your titled property in the trust--house, checking account, everything--and name your son as beneficiary, then name a trusted person (your mother, one of your siblings if you have any, etc.) as trustee. In your will you leave everything that isn't titled to the trust. That way if anything should happen to you, all the property still ends up with him. A side benefit is that if property stays in the trust, then (at least in Maryland) it's not considered to be part of community property. If he ever ends up divorced, the inheritance doesn't get split in half. (The whole business is a little more complex than that, but that's the basics.)

The scenario you laid out is exactly what we don't want to happen with our daughter. You die, everything goes to Mom. She dies, everything goes to new husband. He dies, everything you'd worked to build up goes to his kids/grandkids, who you may have never even met.

Glad to hear you've already started the process. It ain't cheap--professional advice hardly ever is--but you'll end up being sure that your wishes are respected and acted on. Now go rest in peace. Uhh... you know what I mean.

Bill

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- I didn't know that one.

The only thing I know about Twisted Sister is that Dee Snider is from Long Island. But I couldn't name even one of their songs.

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Posted By: Ed

Can someone give me a Rule Against Perpetuities example?

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Posted By: peter chao

Ed,

Why would you ask such a perverted question. I forgot which state it was, but supposedly in that state it is not malpractice for an attorney to misapply the Rule Against Perpetuities. I'm not even I spelled it right.

First you need to understand the purpose of the rule. The purpose of the rule is to limit the duration of the enforcement of any contract.

So, I cannot donate a million dollars to Stanford University a thousand years from now. A general statement of the rule is that a contract must be performed or not performed within the lifetime of some being in existence plus 26 years.

So my donation even if it could be executed would be void because of the Rule Against Perpetuities. This reminds me of the good old days as a law student at Boalt Hall (Berkeley's School of Law).

And of course, I've never used the rule in my practice.

Peter

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Posted By: Max Weder

The horror, the horror...to go to the bottom of this thread and see the Rule against Perpetuities being discussed.

What is next? A discussion of fiefment of livery with seisin? Mortmain? Gavelkind?

Oh, in Canada, the rule is life in being plus 21 years, but modified by "wait and see" rule

Max

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Posted By: James Feagin

Very stange this post arrives. I just mentioned this to my wife today. According to my stats I have a total of 39 cards with a total value of around $25K, which pales in comparison to most here. However, I told her this was the reason I have purposely down-sized my collection and have gotten everything graded; to make it easier on her. I also let her know which auction house I would want her to consign it to. Very interesting thread.

James

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Posted By: leon

As for my collection being sold I would think it would be multiple lots. I was speaking with Kevin Struss not long ago and he mentioned the opposite....that it would be nice to keep it together. If I am gone I guess I don't care too much. That is also why I told my wife to call Mastro. I trust they will take care of it and get the most proceeds....of course it benefits them to get the most as well as my heirs. I sort of hope this is a moot subject > Also, I didn't mean to slight any other auction houses by not mentioning them. There are many other fine ones around and all of the banner advertisers are good companies, imo. best regards

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Posted By: peter chao

I'm not too worried about my wife, she handles money a lot better than I do. Just recently I gave her a list of 3 very trustworthy hobby friends of mine to advise her.

These guys know cards and the ways they can be sold. My wife can rely on them for prices and methods for selling if that is what she chooses to do.

Peter

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

My collection is simply not important enough to do anything too complicated. I keep a sheet of paper in my card room with contact info for Rob Lifson, Barry Sloate, and Jay Wolt for disposition of the majority of the items in my collection.

-Al

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The better bet would be to establish a revocable trust and to grant the trustee the power to make distributions in kind (give the cards to an interested beneficiary) or sell them. That way, at teh very least, you avoid having to probate the cards. Also, preselecting an auctioneer presumes that (1) the auctioneer will be there who-knows-when, (2) the auctioneer will make the best potential deal rather than having a competition for the collection later on, and (3) no one in your family wants any of the cards. You want to preserve flexibility in an estate plan, not lock down a position that may not be the best financial fit for your heirs later on.

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Posted By: anthony

first off, i dont plan on passing before i sell my collection of cards and/or anything else of value. but in the event that something stupid happens then i have a set of instructions that tells my boys to contact leon for help. yes, i said leon. i've been reading this board for awhile and found out that unfortunately there are a few shaddy people...so i have the amount i paid for the card listed along with current books/web sites/magazines/etc that can be helpful to put a current value on them. and in the event by boys (14 and 11) dont want to keep them, i have leons' email for them to contact for help.

leon, i just drew up these instructions in january and havent really finalized them but i hope you dont mind i used you as a reference.