T213 prices vs rarities?

[asphaltman]

It seems like over the last 2-3 years the prices for T213-2 cards have went through the roof and for the life of me I can't quite understand why. They seem to be the issue offered up for sale 90% of the time compared to T213-1 and T213-3. Is this mostly set collectors driving up the prices?

Would love to know how many examples of each are in folks' sets here. I just have one example from each issue at this point (as they say pics are better than no pics). And for what it's worth, I paid hardly anything for my T213-2 example...but bought it before the upswing over the last few years.

[GeoPoto]

I only have 3 -- all Type 2

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1643981419
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1643981424
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1643981428

[Leon]

I am not doing any sets again but picked up a few, as types, in the last month. Maybe that was the surge in prices. .... Par for the course.
.

[brass_rat]

There are a few of us chasing the Type 2 set, as well as some player collectors, and a number of the cards are pretty scarce. With that said, I cannot explain price increases for the really common players and variations within the set.

Steve

[CobbSpikedMe]

I know Types 1 and 3 are rarer, but aren't type 2 scarce compared to other mainstream sets (T206)? I always thought the Coupons were undervalued to begin with.


.

[Harford20]

I collect HOF players from both the T206 and T213-2 sets. The T213-2 have always been rarer, with far less selection (both at AH and eBay) and far fewer TPG cards graded. Up until 2018, the T213-2 HOF players, card for card, were cheaper than the corresponding T206. Since 2018, both have had prices skyrocket, but the current cost of the T213-2 is now higher than the T206 (same player, equiv grade).

I believe this is really only due to scarcity of the T213-2 (and as noted above, these were previously undervalued).

I also previously collected the HOF players for the T213-1 and T213-3, which cost and scarcity both are just frightening (have long since given up this quest).

Dave

For reference, currently (few sold/traded in recent years) have: 17 HOF T213-2 cards, two T213-3 players, one T213-1 card

[Rhotchkiss]

I love the type 1s and think they should be valued on par with T206 Broadleaf or Carolina Brights.

I am not particularly fond of Type 2 and Type 3, as they were produced well after the T206 set send (1914 and 1919, respectively), and I think the registration and centering is often quite poor, especially on the type 3s. In my experience, most Type 2s are not particularly rare (certainly rarer than T206 common back examples, however). Given this fact and the fact that it is a later-released set, I dont know why they would sell for a premium, unless T206s have gotten so expensive that people are looking to Type 2s as a way to get a more affordable T206 image of a player they want.

I do have a few Type 2's and 3's, but they are solely part of player back run projects or its a super-duper rare Factory 8 overprint variation. Here are a few Type 1s

[ullmandds]

I love t213… All of them! The ones and the threes are so rare that they are cool just because of that the variation in paper stock is also quite interesting as is the connection to t206. Type to with all of the interesting team variations many unique to the set… and many are quite difficult to find. Unusual type three over Prints are tougher than almost any t206 back.

The fact that they are from Louisiana contributes to their downright scarcity. It’s similar enough to T206 that many T206 collectors have started buying them!! In my opinions it is for all of these reasons but mainly their scarcity which is why their values have finally caught up!!

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not particularly fond of Type 2 and Type 3, as they were produced well after the T206 set send (1914 and 1919, respectively), and I think the registration and centering is often quite poor, especially on the type 3s. In my experience, most Type 2s are not particularly rare (certainly rarer than T206 common back examples, however). Given this fact and the fact that it is a later-released set, I dont know why they would sell for a premium, unless T206s have gotten so expensive that people are looking to Type 2s as a way to get a more affordable T206 image of a player they want.

Hi Ryan,

I think quite a few of the type 2s are fairly scarce actually. Sure, you can find a type 2 example easily enough, but looking for a specific card can be daunting in many cases. Of course I could be wrong, but I always thought even the type 2s were scarce overall. They just don't get the respect they deserve.

Also, like Peter said, all the team variations make the type 2s very cool. It's one of the few sets that you can find Federal League teams represented. Now that's awesome.


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[Prince Hal]

I really enjoy the T213 of all types. I have found the Type 1 to be more scarce than Type 3, but both are very tough, especially in better than a grade 3. Took me a long long time to build the full Yankees Type 2 subset. When I was a Chase chaser I grabbed these and I still enjoy them.

[ullmandds]

Any type 2 coupon is many multiples more rare than t206 counterpart in majority of cases. Id venture to say there are more T206 wagners than most any coupon type 2!

[atx840]

[DeanH3]

I only have 3, a Matty black cap run. There is a Factory 8 OP out there somehwere.

[Exhibitman]

The type 2s are beautiful cards:



They used to cost far less than comparable T206s, which is why I got the Cobb. As for current value and scarcity, well, last recorded sale of a T213-2 Cobb bat off in a PSA holder I found was March 2018, and last SGC one I found was in May 2020, so that's a pretty good indicator in my way of analyzing scarcity that these are tough cards.

[sb1]

The only Type 1 I have left....

[RCMcKenzie]

Coupons are more popular now, but are still valued much lower than sets like T206 AB or Cycle.

Because they used to be very cheap, I started building all 3 sets a long time ago. I'm at 67/68, 180/185, and 66/70. I've learned a lot and accumulated many cards from the members here.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Hi Ryan,

I think quite a few of the type 2s are fairly scarce actually. Sure, you can find a type 2 example easily enough, but looking for a specific card can be daunting in many cases. Of course I could be wrong, but I always thought even the type 2s were scarce overall. They just don't get the respect they deserve.

I agree that Type 2 are more scare than many of the T206 backs, certainly Piedmont and Sweet Cap. And you may be right that certain Type 2 combinations are more difficult than others; I dnt know T213-2 that well but we certainly know that to be the case with T206 Old Mill, SC 150 and 350 fact 25, etc. Also, agreed the team variations are cool - I know Tinker bat off has a Nat'l and Fed variation. To me, their singular draw back is that they have T206 fronts but were not produced and distributed from 1909-11. But then again, I don't have that issue with D303s and T216s, which have the same images as E101, E101, E92, etc (although E106s kind of bother me for the reason, maybe because the backs are plain compared to D303 general baking/mothers bread and all the T216s).

[asphaltman]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Coupons are more popular now, but are still valued much lower than sets like T206 AB or Cycle.

Because they used to be very cheap, I started building all 3 sets a long time ago. I'm at 67/68, 180/185, and 66/70. I've learned a lot and accumulated many cards from the members here.

That's amazing Rob you are that close on T213-1 and T213-3 sets...seems unthinkable. Any guess over how many years it has been since you started those?

[MuncieNolePAZ]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Coupons are more popular now, but are still valued much lower than sets like T206 AB or Cycle.

Because they used to be very cheap, I started building all 3 sets a long time ago. I'm at 67/68, 180/185, and 66/70. I've learned a lot and accumulated many cards from the members here.

Absolutely amazing. Curious which ones you are missing from each set?

Thanks
Chad

[RCMcKenzie]

Dave and Chad, my first Coupons were from Houston card shows in the early 80's. You used to see all 3 types at motel shows around here. Now, you see almost none. Tri-Star is here this weekend, but it's too cold outside to go anywhere. I went a couple of years ago and only saw one Coupon in a case, a PSA 2 Marqurad for $500.

Here's my want-list. Thanks for asking.

Type 1 Bob Rhoades (not the most difficult card in the set, but in the top 10-15) see example from gfg (not mine)
Type 2 Baker NY (not crazy tough)
Murray CHI Nat (hard to find
Sweeney Richmond (have not seen one)
Wiltse Brooklyn port (tough)
Demmitt NY on shirt (see example, not mine)

Type 3 Cobb Red (expensive)
Griffith (tough)
Kelley (avg)
Merkle (avg)

[t213]

I completed a T213-2 set about ten years ago. There are probably fifty really tough cards, with half of those being very, very difficult. I'm sure the people chasing this set all need a subset of the same 40-50 cards - team changes from 1915 and 1916.

Ryan mentioned Tinker has both Chicago Fed and Nat versions - the Nat versions are very difficult, much more than the Chicago Fed versions.

Even the "easier" cards have been undervalued for many years. I obtained most of my commons for $10-15 each and many of the HOFers for less than $50.

Here's a pic of all six Benders - Athletics 1914, Baltimore 1915, Phillies 1916.

[atx840]

Not my card.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by t213

I completed a T213-2 set about ten years ago. There are probably fifty really tough cards, with half of those being very, very difficult. I'm sure the people chasing this set all need a subset of the same 40-50 cards - team changes from 1915 and 1916.

Ryan mentioned Tinker has both Chicago Fed and Nat versions - the Nat versions are very difficult, much more than the Chicago Fed versions.

Even the "easier" cards have been undervalued for many years. I obtained most of my commons for $10-15 each and many of the HOFers for less than $50.

Here's a pic of all six Benders - Athletics 1914, Baltimore 1915, Phillies 1916.

I remember when you posted your want-list many years ago. PRO9 might have been the moderator, or maybe a Leon board prior to this one. Maybe not that long ago, but my memory is patchy. I remember you had about 5 or 6 to go and one of the cards that you needed was Donlin NY. It surprised me to learn how tough it was. It still sells less than the stats on front, which is a cooler card, but much easier to locate. Now, the pop reports give us a good idea of scarcity, the 1916 on cards like Chance LA and Bender and Tinker Nat are always tough.

Thanks, Chris for posting the Sweeney.

[Vintagecatcher]

I have always like the coupons.

Have 9 T213-2s and 2 T213-3s.

Here are a few...



Patrick

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by atx840

Not my card.

Interesting since he never played for Richmond.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Interesting since he never played for Richmond.

Pat, Ed Sweeney "hobby nickname 'Jeff'" played for Toledo in 1916, so that is what I think the caption should read. Looking on stats crew, there was another guy named Ed Sweeney that played in the Virginia League for Lynchburg in 1908. He may have bounced over to Richmond between 1914-1916 or maybe the printers just confused the two players. They got Pittsburgh correct for "Jeff's" 1919 card, by pop reports, the most difficult card, or close to it, in the type 3 set.

[nolemmings]

Ed Sweeney, he of Yankee pinstripes, was a catcher for Richmond in August/September 1915.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Ed Sweeney, he of Yankee pinstripes, was a catcher for Richmond in August/September 1915.

Thanks, Todd, I know you researched old newspaper accounts on a bunch of the T213-2 mysteries and posted them in an earlier thread, but I didn't it pull it up to refresh my recollection. Nice work.

[MuncieNolePAZ]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Dave and Chad, my first Coupons were from Houston card shows in the early 80's. You used to see all 3 types at motel shows around here. Now, you see almost none. Tri-Star is here this weekend, but it's too cold outside to go anywhere. I went a couple of years ago and only saw one Coupon in a case, a PSA 2 Marqurad for $500.

Here's my want-list. Thanks for asking.

Type 1 Bob Rhoades (not the most difficult card in the set, but in the top 10-15) see example from gfg (not mine)
Type 2 Baker NY (not crazy tough)
Murray CHI Nat (hard to find
Sweeney Richmond (have not seen one)
Wiltse Brooklyn port (tough)
Demmitt NY on shirt (see example, not mine)

Type 3 Cobb Red (expensive)
Griffith (tough)
Kelley (avg)
Merkle (avg)

Thanks for sharing Rob! If I run across any of those, I will let you know. Would be cool to see those sets completed. I wouldn't mind finding a Type 3 WaJo, but won't hold my breath. Lol

Thanks
Chad

[nolemmings]

Thanks Rob. Here is the link if anyone wants to review it.https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...hlight=sweeney

What's interesting is that Sweeney and Jack Warhop were released to Richmond at the same time, but the latter did not report and obtained his unconditional release. Warhop was in negotiations with St. Louis and pitched there in the Spring of 1916 but was cut before the season began. He has a T213-2 card for St. Louis, which gives insight as to release of the 1916 series for that set. Since Sweeney was not back to Richmond after the 1915 season, this too gives insight into the 1915 release of T213-2 that year.

[asphaltman]

Rob, of your t213-1 collection - what percentage of yours would you guess have back damage? I’m assuming way more than 50%?

[RCMcKenzie]

Dave, here's a pic of the backs from 5 years ago. I have upgraded as I go. I would say about 5% of my 67/68 have back damage. Almost all my dupes have back damage or other major flaws.

[Leon]

Nice pic, Rob.
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks, Leon, I was going to load them to my flickr page 1 by 1 when I finished, but I may start gradually working on the page this year. I think I'm close on type 3 and type 1, but years away on type 2, because I have 4 really tough cards left.

[asphaltman]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Dave, here's a pic of the backs from 5 years ago. I have upgraded as I go. I would say about 5% of my 67/68 have back damage. Almost all my dupes have back damage or other major flaws.

Just amazing. Congrats on the accomplishment of putting that monster together.

[ctownboy]

I can only contribute two cards to the discussion. I have a Type 1 of Clyde Engle and a Type 2 of Tom Needham.

I will try and add pictures later in the weekend.

David

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Dave, here's a pic of the backs from 5 years ago. I have upgraded as I go. I would say about 5% of my 67/68 have back damage. Almost all my dupes have back damage or other major flaws.

Totally awesome! Great pic. A T213-1 set is a beast accomplishment.

[trobba]

I believe a 1/1 overprint:

[molenick]

Adding my one overprint.

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Thanks, Leon, I was going to load them to my flickr page 1 by 1 when I finished, but I may start gradually working on the page this year. I think I'm close on type 3 and type 1, but years away on type 2, because I have 4 really tough cards left.

Rob,

That is awesome to see your near set laid out on the floor like that. You really need to add your scans to this thread

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277528

Here's my contribution to the T213 thread

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Totally awesome! Great pic. A T213-1 set is a beast accomplishment.

+1 to Ryan's comment -- Rob, that's an awesome set accomplishment. Cheers -- may you find the Rhodes in 2022.

Steve

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks, Dave, Ryan, Scott and Steve. Those factory 8's are great, y'all. I only have 2 overprints, Doyle bat and Hoblitzell. I used to think of them as part of the T213-3 set, but now I consider them T213-4, or T213-3B, I'll have to work on that set next, if I ever finish these. Rob

[gabrinus]

Cool thread guys...Rob that is amazing to have that many type ones...Jerry

[tedzan]

Hey guys.....this is one GREAT thread.

I am especially a 1910 COUPON fan. I prefer to refer the "T213-1" cards as this because my research definitely suggests that they are a subset of the T206 set.

Years ago, I started collecting the 1910 COUPON cards by 1st acquiring the Six Super Prints of the T206 set. Believe it or not....for me this Cobb was the easier
card to find of these rare gems.

.














And, my 6th 1910 COUPON Super Print, Chance, now belongs to Ryan.

.



Hey Rob.....I haven't given up searching for the Bob Rhoades to complete your 1910 COUPON set.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[asphaltman]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys.....this is one GREAT thread.

I am especially a 1910 COUPON fan. I prefer to refer the "T213-1" cards as this because my research definitely suggests that they are a subset of the T206 set.

Years ago, I started collecting the 1910 COUPON cards by 1st acquiring the Six Super Prints of the T206 set. Believe it or not....for me this Cobb was the easier
card to find of these rare gems.

.














And, my 6th 1910 COUPON Super Print, Chance, now belongs to Ryan.

.



Hey Rob.....I haven't given up searching for the Bob Rhoades to complete your 1910 COUPON set.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

More amazing cards - thanks for the scans Ted

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by asphaltman

More amazing cards - thanks for the scans Ted

Dave......Thank you for starting this thread.

And, here are some more T213 cards.....





------------ --------------


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks Jerry and Ted. Ted, I think my best chance will be someone from New Orleans loading up a card on ebay, like this T213-3 Wheat that I got last year. He told me he bought it at a yard sale in the 80's and was selling to buy modern basketball. Also, I added a Kelley from eBay to take me to 67/70. I looked at 3 Kelley's on there for a long time, and finally made a deal to add one.

[brianp-beme]

Even a destroyed T213-2 Coupon is kinda cool.

Brian

[tedzan]

Continuing on 1910 COUPON......

Initially, the COUPON Cigarettes were packaged in 200-count cartons. The 1910 COUPON cards were placed inside these cartons, or were pasted on these
cartons. The latter case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs, such as my Cobb and Breitenstein.

.


.



My Mickey Doolan certainly provides evidence of a very slight application of paste.

.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[brianp-beme]

Hey, here are my only T213-1 and T213-3 cards. Thankfully in slightly better shape than the T213-2 I showed previously.

Brian