Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc.

[Rich Klein]

Presented without comment

https://www.actionnetwork.com/genera...tor-convention

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Presented without comment

https://www.actionnetwork.com/genera...tor-convention

When the PWCC Guy first said this I knew he was in deep....real deep....

“Trading cards are easily the most liquid of all tangible assets, and this factor is continuing to drive attention towards them, especially new wealth,”


Sad this Industry has and will Always Be the Wild Wild West

PSA, especially with Orlando’s last comment has lost all my respect along with any further business from me.... :-( Orlando’s shameful arrogant comments put me over
The edge....we are basically the suckers if you don’t like it get over it.

[silvor]

Ahead of the annual National Sports Collectors Convention next week in Chicago, the sports card market is in crisis mode.

And he spells out why. Should be an interesting couple weeks.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by silvor

ahead of the annual national sports collectors convention next week in chicago, the sports card market is in crisis mode.

and he spells out why. Should be an interesting couple weeks.

this is why

[perezfan]

The new 3 Stooges...

Joe, Gary and Squirrelly.

[BobC]

""In a letter to his customers on Wednesday, Collectors Universe CEO Joe Orlando doubled down on his company accepting no fault for grading trimmed cards, placing the blame on those involved in the trimming.

“Like most other industries, ours contains a fraction of people who choose to do nothing more than complain about how third-party systems are imperfect, instead of offering feasible or logical ways to make it better,” Orlando wrote. “Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable.”"


For purposes of giving credit, the above excerpt and quote are from the Rovell article.


I went into some great detail in an earlier thread asking opinions about the lines that would be at this year's National.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=bobc&page=2

Forgive me in advance for my long posts in that earlier thread (and this one) as I don't just type out one or two line zingers, and try to back up everything I'm saying with solid explanations and facts where possible. Pay particular attention to posts #88, 102, 125 and 127 in that other earlier thread.

Based on my background and knowledge, I believe PSA has some serious financial issues they may be dealing with right now internally. As part of Collector's Universe (CU), a publicly traded company, their external auditors (Grant Thornton out of Newport Beach, CA) should be working on the company's annual audit for their fiscal year ending 6/30/2019 as I'm typing this. Of particular importance will be the reported warranty reserve that CU will end up showing in their financials for this most recent 6/30/19 year-end.

As for the Joe Orlando quote above more or less putting down collectors for merely complaining about the problems, and never offering feasible or logical solutions, I've said this before as to what would possibly be a viable solution to this situation. There needs to be a single, independent, non-profit group or organization comprised, backed and supported by the collecting community and collectors to set up and establish a single set of agreed upon grading and authentication standards, measurements and so on. And this collector organization is not to be directly affiliated or controlled in any manner whatsoever, with or by the TPGs, dealers and auction houses. The determination of grading and authenticating standards and measures should have never been left in the hands of for-profit third party grading companies in the first place. What they have created is a mess whereby each grading company has their own, unique and slightly different way of grading and assessing cards. Each TPG ends up grading the same card differently based on their own internal standards, not those agreed upon by the collecting community as a whole. You can still have independent, for-profit TPG companies to do the grading and authentication work, but they would need to be overseen and certified to do so by this proposed collecting community organization, and subject to complete transparency as to what they do and how they do it, and also be subject to ongoing, periodic peer review as to the work they perform so as to assure collectors they are maintaining the quality and standards of their work they are supposed to be doing, and performing such work in a consistent and agreed upon manner as dictated by the collecting community as a whole, not just by what that particular TPG thinks is okay.

The collecting organization and the collecting community as a whole should be the ones voting on and determining any changes in standards or measures, not the TPGs who do so now arbitrarily when and how they see fit, and to their economic advantage one would assume, not necessarily for the benefit or betterment of the collecting community itself. Also, there should be some standardized and agreed upon training or education (and eventual formal certification) of anyone deemed to be a qualified grader/authenticator of cards. As of now, the TPGs are supposedly doing the selection and training of their graders themselves, and does anyone really know what, if any, specific training and knowledge these graders actually have? It appears that from information available and gleaned from different sources that the current graders used by the TPGs (especially at PSA) are likely spending extremely little time in reviewing and grading every single card they look at, so it is no wonder that there could possibly be so many errors and missed alterations that get by these TPGs and into holders with numerical grades. The TPGs (especially PSA as they are part of a publicly traded company that is accountable only to their shareholders) are interested in profits, not doing what is necessarily right and proper for the collecting community as a whole.

And because of these grading/authenticating standard variances and alleged deficiencies in the work being performed by TPGs, it has left things wide open for card doctors/alterers to step in and take advantage. And since there is no single standard consensus among collectors as to what is exactly considered and acceptable or not acceptable as card alterations/doctoring, it is going to be hard to actually convict someone of wrongdoing. Remember who is considered the grading experts by the collecting community currently (the TPGs). So who do you think would most likely be called into court by defense attorneys to act as expert witnesses in some trial about alleged card alterations? And then remember, if those same TPGs agree and testify that they did erroneously end up grading altered/doctored cards that they could in some instances end up being financially liable for such admissions, do you think that could possibly affect how they would testify in such a case? And then don't forget, the TPGs only give their OPINIONs as to a card's grade or authenticity. And as the old saying goes, "Opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one!" But since those grades are only opinions, what is to stop a TPG from merely testifying they stand by their original opinion? I doubt you could hold someone in contempt or claim they perjured themselves by sticking to an opinion. And since the TPGs are the de facto experts for the collecting community in grading and authenticating, who do you bring in to prove them wrong? Now if you could get one of the card doctors to admit that a particular card graded by that TPG was altered by them, that may help the argument, but do you really think any card doctor will openly admit to what they've done, especially in court? And also don't forget, for PSA's grading warranty to be effective, the current owner of a PSA graded card would have to go back to PSA and give them the PSA graded card, still in its PSA holder, to review and determine if it was erroneously graded due to alterations, doctoring or anything else. But again, who is the sole arbiter as to whether or not that card was graded incorrectly.........PSA! Not the guys on the BO forum doing all the detective work, not any other TPG, not any court, nor you or I.

Joe Orlando would likely not feel my suggestion was a viable or feasible solution though, mostly because it wouldn't be his company calling the shots and making the decisions, and would likely have a negative impact on their business. From a practical standpoint, what I'm proposing would not be something easy or happening overnight either. You would have to organize the collecting community and get a large majority of collectors to buy in and agree to work together, set aside differences and come up with agreed upon standards among all the collectors, and then probably the toughest part, have everyone in the collecting community agree in both word and action to only work and deal with those TPGs, dealers, auction houses and so on that agreed to recognize the collector organization as the sole body to determine and set standards, and to oversee adherence and compliance with those standards, oversights, peer reviews, and so on. You'd likely need to impose some kind of dues/fees for members of the organization to help fund the work and such that would need to be done to oversee and run everything. And you'd also have to find people willing and able to work in the organization to run and manage things. These are not simple things to easily or quickly be put in place or get done. And sadly, because there are so many collectors, dealers and others that currently have significant investments in graded cards, forcing everyone to comply with such new standards and changes would/could call for pretty much having everything re-reviewed subject to the new rules. And doing all this would likely have some serious negative financial implications for a lot of collectors/dealers that like things just the way they are now, and don't want to hear or see any changes to the status quo whatsoever. It would not be a quick or easy fix, and it wouldn't necessarily stop a card doctors/alterer who can do things to cards that really can't be detected in some cases. It also wouldn't necessarily solve the problems or issues with people trying to manipulate the market, shill bidding and other detrimental things in the collecting hobby as outlined in the Rovell article, but at least it would standardize some things and force the TPGs and others to work for and on behalf of the collecting community and collectors, instead of the other way around.

Oh, and the other comments in that Rovell article about the significant sales of stock by the PSA CEO are factual statements. As a publicly traded company, in accordance with SEC rules, they have to report such significant sales of a company's stock by their owners/officers to be fair to the investing public and so they can't supposedly take advantage of insider knowledge to the detriment of investors at large. Collector's Universe, though actually a very small company in relation to most publicly traded companies, had recently been added to the Russell 2000 index, which an investor would normally see as a positive sign for the business and would likely help to see that stock going up in price. The fact that a main officer of that same company would then be selling off a significant portion of their stock could simply be him/her taking advantage of a recent price rise and pulling some profits off the table, or they could have had some recent personal cash needs that prompted them to sell part of their ownership to fund the cash need. Of course, if there was also some potential bad financial news coming down the road that they were aware of that could negatively affect the company's stock price, they may be selling so as to cash out as much as they could and cut their losses before the bad financial news becomes mainstream public knowledge and the stock price takes a serious hit. I'll give all of you three guesses as to the possible motivation for Mr. Orlando's sales of his stock in CU, and the first two guesses don't count!!!

[Dpeck100]

A lot of theories out there on this board with very little research.


Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D -19,465 Sale 14.39 -0.28 03-Jul-2018 4 21,314 21,314


Here is a sale from Joe last year at this time. The stock is nearly nine points higher and this sale would have resulted in over $172,000 more funds for him.


These are stock option related sales.


Here is the recent one.


Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D -5,326 Sale 21.89 -0.12 01-Jul-2019 4 28,780 28,780


So what is your theory on why he didn't sell them all?


Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D 12,792 Acquisition 0.00 0.00 24-Sep-2018 4 34,106 34,106


The hatred for PSA seems to completely cloud rational thought process here.

[samosa4u]

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-retrospective

If you want to see Joe O's full response, then click the above link.

Joe is speaking very broadly here. If I was someone who didn't know anything about this scandal, and I were to read his post, I would still not know anything about it.

He states how a lot of individuals do nothing but complain about the errors TPGs make and provide no logical solutions on making it better. Furthermore, he states that "their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable." I just feel that a lot of these trimmed cards that were outed on the Blowout Forums were not measured. Don't graders have some measuring devices on their desks? How often do they use them and how long does it take to measure a card? Is that asking for a lot?

His conclusion was the worst part. He states that "there will also be those who choose to spread fear and ignorance." It's called awareness, Mr. Orlando. Those guys over at the Blowout Forums have made me aware of this problem, and now I am very careful about what I buy and that's a good thing, no?

I'm not going to stop purchasing PSA graded cards, and from time-to-time I will submit my cards in for grading as well, but like most people on here, I'm just very disappointed in the way PSA handled this whole thing.

[Republicaninmass]

Who is Darren Rovell, the next up and coming Keith Olbermann with less collector knowledge and even less fan base? Sorry if I should know who he is, but seems like another "contributor". I guess it adds more eyes to the story

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Who is Darren Rovell, the next up and coming Keith Olbermann with less collector knowledge and even less fan base? Sorry if I should know who he is, but seems like another "contributor". I guess it adds more eyes to the story

He was the primary business reporter on ESPN until he left last year. Far from a
"contributor." Of course, a simple Google search could have answered your question.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought he did a nice job of presenting a lot of material in a coherent and organized way.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought he did a nice job of presenting a lot of material in a coherent and organized way.

I thought he did as well.

Has anyone heard if any members of the media, local or national are going to be doing a piece from the National on the scandal ?

IBD would seem like a good fit......exposing the market manipulation

[benjulmag]

Bob,

That is a very informative and well thought out post.

The biggest obstacle I see to implementing what you are outlining is a conceptual one -- collecting by its nature is subjective. Therefore, the notion of having some universal objective grading standard that all TPGs would be bound to follow strikes me as being inconsistent with why people collect in the first place -- personal enjoyment. One person's 8 could be another person's 3, and vice versa.

In my ideal grading world, the sole purpose of a TPG is to opine if the card is genuine and what, if anything, has been done to it. There would be no numerical grades. At that point, armed with that information, a prospective purchaser can decide how much he/she is willing to pay.

In regard to the concern as to how PSA can be found to be liable under their guaranty if the grade is nothing more than an opinion, I don't think they will be that easily let off the hook. I believe if litigated a court would rule in such a way that would give economic substance to the guaranty, which would not be the case if all PSA has to say they in good faith stand by their original grade. PSA charges up to $5K to grade certain cards, and for that money I can't imagine they would not have a lot of explaining to do if a numerically graded card is objectively found to be altered.

This then raises the question how can one objectively determine alteration and thereby meet the legal standard of proof if one cannot remove it from the slab without voiding the guaranty? I can think of at least two ways -- (1) certain trimmed borders when magnified will show sufficiently clear differences when contrasted with untrimmed borders to persuade a trier of fact that the initial grade was incorrect; (2) Removing the card from the slab under appropriate video recorded supervision, which could then permit a scientific analysis of the borders to determine if they exhibit chemical characteristics indicative of recent exposure to the atmosphere (i.e., they were trimmed). I suspect other scientific tests could also be performed to detect other alterations (e.g., addition of coloring, chemical cleaning).

PSA of course will argue that the removal from the slab voids the guaranty. Given the extreme difficulty/impossibility of proving alteration by leaving the card in the slab, coupled with using the video recording to establish to the court's satisfaction that the alteration did not occur after the removal (thereby addressing the concern behind the prohibition against removal), I believe there is a real shot a court would rule the guaranty is not voided.

That to me is the biggest risk PSA faces -- being wiped out financially, as I believe their contingent liability grossly exceeds their capability to absorb it.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

He was the primary business reporter on ESPN until he left last year. Far from a

"contributor." Of course, a simple Google search could have answered your question.

Action network didnt ring any bells, plus AFTER I Google searched, it seemed he was most recently relevant for creating controversy and was incentivised to move to Action. No Olbermann multi million dollar deal. Hes being praised on blowout as the second coming, just curious why. I guess he has a platform, and was business oriented with ESPN, apparently hes now focused on gambling, but it helps spread the word.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Action network didnt ring any bells, plus AFTER I Google searched, it seemed he was most recently relevant for creating controversy and was incentivised to move to Action. No Olbermann multi million dollar deal. Hes being praised on blowout as the second coming, just curious why. I guess he has a platform, and was business oriented with ESPN, apparently hes now focused on gambling, but it helps spread the word.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

It's harder hitting than the prior NYT and WaPo pieces, which is a good thing.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

A lot of theories out there on this board with very little research.


Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D -19,465 Sale 14.39 -0.28 03-Jul-2018 4 21,314 21,314


Here is a sale from Joe last year at this time. The stock is nearly nine points higher and this sale would have resulted in over $172,000 more funds for him.


These are stock option related sales.


Here is the recent one.


Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D -5,326 Sale 21.89 -0.12 01-Jul-2019 4 28,780 28,780


So what is your theory on why he didn't sell them all?


Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D 12,792 Acquisition 0.00 0.00 24-Sep-2018 4 34,106 34,106


The hatred for PSA seems to completely cloud rational thought process here.

Not a fan right now is PSA, but I don't think his stock selling is anything sinister.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Not a fan right now is PSA, but I don't think his stock selling is anything sinister.

The CFO has done the same thing both years at the exact same time. He still has over 200k shares. Yeah just diving out of the stock.

People should look stuff up before they make wild accusations. There is no downside to saying the stuff because a lot of people want to believe it and quickly get out the pitchforks.

[Dpeck100]

This is Darren Rovell.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58MJrealc9I

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

This is Darren Rovell.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58MJrealc9I

I just wasted 33 seconds of my life....thanks David !!! LoL

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I just wasted 33 seconds of my life....thanks David !!! LoL

I remember when this first surfaced and I was like WTF this dude is brutal.

He was on CNBC for a few years so I was very familiar with him.

It makes sense why he wants to go after people.

[Rhotchkiss]

I think it is an excellent article. Well written, very informative, and unafraid to name names and call out rolls/involvement. It is a little biased toward the collectors and makes some harsh statements, but I welcome that. It’s about time we had a stronger voice. Good work Darren Rovell- keep writing!

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The CFO has done the same thing both years at the exact same time. He still has over 200k shares. Yeah just diving out of the stock.

People should look stuff up before they make wild accusations. There is no downside to saying the stuff because a lot of people want to believe it and quickly get out the pitchforks.

I know that you live in this world, is it that common for a CEO to but low sell high like this? Moving around up to 40% of his holding? I would think at minimum it is a tell to the market that a new high is in. Would be interesting to follow his buy and sell patterns to see what the next 180 days looked like.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by japhi

I know that you live in this world, is it that common for a CEO to but low sell high like this? Moving around up to 40% of his holding? I would think at minimum it is a tell to the market that a new high is in. Would be interesting to follow his buy and sell patterns to see what the next 180 days looked like.

Joe Orlando in reality has never owned a ton of stock.

In many cases when someone exercises options they sell enough to pay for the taxes to keep the remaining shares. I can't say for certain but that is what it looks like took place recently.

It also appears he was at the mercy of the market a year ago when their stock was down because of their coin division and he was forced to leave a nice chunk of money on the table with that sale.

If someone wanted to evaluate whether or not insiders were selling they should watch the CFO who has a much larger share position and his sale was just over 1% of his holdings.

These sales were clearly planned with the exact timing of last years sales so I wouldn't read anything into it one way or another. These guys are not Carl Icahn and aren't totally swimming in money so it is natural to see some selling and increase in current share count at the same time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dave I haven't looked at the filings but maybe you have, does he actually have a 10b5-1 trading plan in place? If so then it means less than nothing.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dave I haven't looked at the filings but maybe you have, does he actually have a 10b5-1 trading plan in place? If so then it means less than nothing.

I don't think so and especially because of the pattern of sales.

David Hall did and for quite some time he was making planned sales and you could see the pattern. For those that don't know this means you must sell shares consistently at a specified date regardless of price.

His holdings have actually increased by just over 20k shares in his last filing so he has stopped selling.

All one must do is look at the insider data and they will see what has happened here. Joe was either paying for taxes to keep the shares or selling a few for some other reason but neither could in any capacity be viewed as nefarious.

This was added to the story for shock and awe and it worked. It just wasn't true.

[CurtisFlood]

I'm glad I have very few graded cards to present at the National. I have usually sold 95 % raw material.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I don't think so and especially because of the pattern of sales.

David Hall did and for quite some time he was making planned sales and you could see the pattern. For those that don't know this means you must sell shares consistently at a specified date regardless of price.

His holdings have actually increased by just over 20k shares in his last filing so he has stopped selling.

All one must do is look at the insider data and they will see what has happened here. Joe was either paying for taxes to keep the shares or selling a few for some other reason but neither could in any capacity be viewed as nefarious.

This was added to the story for shock and awe and it worked. It just wasn't true.

Most plaintiffs' lawyers don't understand sales by insiders either.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Most plaintiffs' lawyers don't understand sales by insiders either.

This was a hit piece and you need some salacious BS to get it moving.

Accusing the CEO of dumping stock before the pending doom that is being written about is slanderous. A dude like Peter Thiel would make his life miserable if it was written about him.

It will be interesting to see if one day PSA goes after someone trying to publicly hurt their reputation. It could be very costly for that person in legal fees.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

This was a hit piece and you need some salacious BS to get it moving.

Accusing the CEO of dumping stock before the pending doom that is being written about is slanderous. A dude like Peter Thiel would make his life miserable if it was written about him.

It will be interesting to see if one day PSA goes after someone trying to publicly hurt their reputation. It could be very costly for that person in legal fees.

I can't imagine that ever happening. That would be like a scum bag seller having his lawyer send out cease and desist letters. Probably just a urban myth.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Bob,

That is a very informative and well thought out post.

The biggest obstacle I see to implementing what you are outlining is a conceptual one -- collecting by its nature is subjective. Therefore, the notion of having some universal objective grading standard that all TPGs would be bound to follow strikes me as being inconsistent with why people collect in the first place -- personal enjoyment. One person's 8 could be another person's 3, and vice versa.

In my ideal grading world, the sole purpose of a TPG is to opine if the card is genuine and what, if anything, has been done to it. There would be no numerical grades. At that point, armed with that information, a prospective purchaser can decide how much he/she is willing to pay.

In regard to the concern as to how PSA can be found to be liable under their guaranty if the grade is nothing more than an opinion, I don't think they will be that easily let off the hook. I believe if litigated a court would rule in such a way that would give economic substance to the guaranty, which would not be the case if all PSA has to say they in good faith stand by their original grade. PSA charges up to $5K to grade certain cards, and for that money I can't imagine they would not have a lot of explaining to do if a numerically graded card is objectively found to be altered.

This then raises the question how can one objectively determine alteration and thereby meet the legal standard of proof if one cannot remove it from the slab without voiding the guaranty? I can think of at least two ways -- (1) certain trimmed borders when magnified will show sufficiently clear differences when contrasted with untrimmed borders to persuade a trier of fact that the initial grade was incorrect; (2) Removing the card from the slab under appropriate video recorded supervision, which could then permit a scientific analysis of the borders to determine if they exhibit chemical characteristics indicative of recent exposure to the atmosphere (i.e., they were trimmed). I suspect other scientific tests could also be performed to detect other alterations (e.g., addition of coloring, chemical cleaning).

PSA of course will argue that the removal from the slab voids the guaranty. Given the extreme difficulty/impossibility of proving alteration by leaving the card in the slab, coupled with using the video recording to establish to the court's satisfaction that the alteration did not occur after the removal (thereby addressing the concern behind the prohibition against removal), I believe there is a real shot a court would rule the guaranty is not voided.

That to me is the biggest risk PSA faces -- being wiped out financially, as I believe their contingent liability grossly exceeds their capability to absorb it.

Corey,

You are absolutely right, too many people have too many different ideas on what should be what. I said one of the main problems would be getting everyone to actually agree on a single set of standards and then trying to get everyone to follow it. Your thoughts about having TPGs merely authentic a card and then leaving it to collectors to decide what shape it is in makes the best sense to me also. Unfortunately too many people that have gotten into cards view them not just as hobby collectibles, but as investments that they hope continue to rise in value. And that is the inherent problem when you get a hobby where some are in it for fun and to collect, whereas others are in it for business and profit. Because of the people that are in it for potential investment/profit, you end up needing to keep some grading system in place because unlike artwork where each piece is an original one-of-one, there can be hundreds or thousands of a particular card and the grading is what can differentiate a rare, almost perfect condition card from a similar one in just VG shape. And therein because of that condition rarity is where the perceived increase in value comes from, at least to a pretty good majority of card collectors. And because of the financial/investment side of the hobby that exists, having an agreed upon, single set of standards would make it easier for people to relate and compare graded cards across the board.

Because of the perceived differences in some TPGs to others, and the effect they can have on a card's value, we already have it now where people just pay more or less for cards of supposedly similar grades solely based on who graded it. How many threads and discussions have there been about how say a PSA 6 of a certain card will always bring more money than that same exact card in a comparable SGC or BGS 6 holder? If you can get a collector group/organization to agree upon and then enforce a single set of standards, and force the TPGs to follow it, there would be a benefit for both true hobby collectors as well as those in it more for the business/investment aspect. You would get graded cards to be uniform and comparable across all grading companies and this could help to eliminate the inconsistencies among graded cards and perceived values. You could also have the hobby/collecting group become the party that keeps track of the graded cards across the entire hobby and not just have certain TPGs set up their own registry. That way all collectors could have their graded cards registered and tracked by that one collecting group, and include all graded cards regardless of the TPG. The collecting group would then require the TPGs as part of what they would have to do to continue to be a licensed grading company, to share with them information about all newly graded cards so there would be a single unified registry that all members of the collecting community could access and use. One of the benefits would be that if someone went to crossover a graded card from one TPG to another that the TPG doing the re-grade would be required to inform the collecting group registry the information as to what holder they took the card from, and what holder they now put it into. The registry group could then remove the old, broken-out graded card from the registry and replace it with information of the new, regraded one. That way the people in the hobby would be able to have a better idea of how many of a particular card are actually graded and in existence. It would also help to make it easier to track graded cards, especially if as part of such an overall hobby group run registry the TPGs were also required to supply images of cards they are grading as well for comparative purposes. With a registry and database like that you could watch what is happening to cards a lot better than it is now. Of course someone could still just break a card out of a holder and not tell anyone, and there is also the problem of how do you get all of the graded cards that are already out there into such a registry to make it more valuable and meaningful. While nothing is perfect or foolproof, it could help to cut down on the abuses and shenanigans of card doctors because there would be one source and data base you could watch and better track graded cards from. In a more perfect world, that would have been something to have started out with from the beginning of the graded card era. Now it may be too little, too late to try and impose such a group to oversee and change the hobby and how it functions.

[benjulmag]

Bob,

I hear you and I suppose if the objective is to address the concerns of those who are in this hobby not for the pleasure but instead for the investment potential, what you are proposing can't hurt.

That said, IMO the bigger problem which still needs to be addressed is that the current business model of grading cards (reliance on visual inspection) is outdated and cannot keep up with the advances in altering and counterfeiting, much the same way police radar devices soon become obsolete once the latest radar detector hits the market. So even if there was a unified grading system all could agree on, that still doesn't mean there will be any reduction in altered cards receiving numerical grades.

What I like most about your proposal is the idea of a single unified registry. It is the PSA set registry that causes PSA cards to sell at higher prices than identically graded cards from another TPG. It would not surprise me if polled a majority of knowledgeable collectors would rate SGC as having better graders, but those same people would still want their cards slabbed by PSA because the cards would fetch higher prices.

In another thread there was a discussion of forcing PSA to include other TPGs in its set registry. Among the comments to that idea was the firm view that it would be met with howling resistance from many well-heeled collectors who believe much of the value and prestige of their collections reside in their place in the PSA registry.

[Just.Rachel]

I like Rovell's article overall. Having said that, I have a few thoughts....

I get the need for sensationalism in articles these days, that shock and awe factor, but I think when it's done in this way, it weakens the credibility of the points being made. Rovell comes off as a lesser reporter trying to regain relevance through attacks, rather than a top-notch disseminator of fact. He does throw out some interesting tidbits for sure, but it comes off as a stretch at times.

These clowns of which he writes have given plenty of ammunition to those that would take shots at them. There seems to be a crapton of dirt available to discredit the players in this whole fiasco. Why go overboard with insinuations of insider trading and market manipulation when there is really no need? Doing that discredits the rest of the facts.

Im just your average hobbyist searching for truth, small potatoes. I'd guess people like me are his target audience, but I don't know. All I can say is that I was left with the shock and awe he intended, but also a healthy amount of skepticism as to how much of the article was truth and how much was fabricated in an attempt to gain publicity for the writer himself.

I could be way off base here. I openly admit to being less-than-educated about this stuff. But that's the impression I got from reading it.

Having said that, I did forward the link to a friend haha.

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[Rhotchkiss]

Yes, but the shock and awe caught your attention and prompted you to pass the article on. That’s the goal right now: get this thing out there, and then the facts will speak for themselves- the facts do not bode well for psa and pwcc. Yes, it’s a bit inflammatory and sensational, but not incorrect (as far as we know). Indeed, compared to crap I hear and read on Fox News AND CNN, this article was relatively even-handed by today’s standards (unfortunately).


Keep writing, Darren Rovell!

[Just.Rachel]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yes, but the shock and awe caught your attention and prompted you to pass the article on. That’s the goal right now: get this thing out there, and then the facts will speak for themselves- the facts do not bode well for psa and pwcc.

Indeed, the article did grab me, even though I was already aware of most of the content. In that, he succeeded.

I have another question though. Maybe you all could enlighten me. Let me preface my queery by saying that again, I'm small potatoes in the hobby, buy and sell a bit here and there but generally not for profit.

I'm getting the impression that most people think getting this scandal out in the open and relentless publicity about all of this is somehow good for the hobby. I don't quite understand that. I would think that scandals of this sort would drive people away, not pull them in. I keep seeing people say they're done for a while, maybe forever, and I don't see anyone saying they're suddenly going to start collecting now.

I get the need for this to be handled, and I also get that a certain amount of publicity is necessary to help collect information and evidence, but wouldn't it be better for the hobby in general if this mess could all be sorted out as covertly as possible? Wouldn't there likely be more total hobbyists next year if the scambags responsible for this fiasco could be dealt with outside of a national spotlight?

Haven't card sales been hurt since this started? Is that a good thing?

I'm not trying to be difficult here, and I completely applaud everyone involved in seeking justice and weeding out corruption. I just would've rather it be done without discrediting the hobby as a whole. Maybe that just wasn't possible, given the scope of what has happened, but idk.

Okay that was wayyyyy longer than I wanted it to be.



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[Rhotchkiss]

Personally, I would rather see a cleaner hobby with less people than a more popular hobby, but dirtier hobby.

What I want here is what I call "short to pain for long term gain". Yes, in the short term we will lose collectors and card prices may go down. The industry will need corrections, many of them in many ways. But I think if that happens, the industry will emerge stronger and cleaner, and the collectors and card values will come back, perhaps stronger than ever. And I think that process starts with public shaming and hopefully ends with the punishment of those who have wronged. There needs to be a deterrent here; awareness is not just enough. Some people need to bankrupt and be jailed. Other companies need to fundamentally change their ways -- like kicking out a whole submission when 20%+ of it found authentic, not charging on card value, or, better, spending more time (enough time) on the higher value cards - if a card costs $1000 to grade, you should get more time and better eyes on it than a card that costs $5 to grade. I have a many other ideas, but I will spare you all.

Bottom line, its better to fix things now and go through pains, then kick it on down the line and feel bigger pains later. And fixing things now is significantly advanced by press coverage, especially negative coverage towards those who are responsible for all this.

[Just.Rachel]

You make good points. Someday I would like to buy you a beer, sir.

I soooo want some of these jerkwads do to some time, to face penalties severe enough to deter anyone in the future from following in their footsteps. But that's what I see as most important.

PSA needs to get their act together, and they're not the only TPG with issues. I can see how publicity might force that issue. Right now, they have a line out the door and around the corner of people trying to hand them money for their services, and apparently they are arrogant enough (as evidenced by Mr Orlando's disrespectful statement) to think they can just issue a blanket Eff U to the hobby and still have that line waiting next month. Maybe he's right, idk. I hope not though.

As far as the Moser/pwcc thing, hopefully the authorities will get it cleaned up. I'm not sure how publicity helps them do that. But demand for PSA can only be lessened through publicity, and only a lessening of demand will bring reform. In that, I agree and see your point.

Thanks for the answer. You gave me things to consider that hadn't previously occurred to me.

Smiles....

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[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Just.Rachel

You make good points. Someday I would like to buy you a beer, sir.

I soooo want some of these jerkwads do to some time, to face penalties severe enough to deter anyone in the future from following in their footsteps. But that's what I see as most important.

PSA needs to get their act together, and they're not the only TPG with issues. I can see how publicity might force that issue. Right now, they have a line out the door and around the corner of people trying to hand them money for their services, and apparently they are arrogant enough (as evidenced by Mr Orlando's disrespectful statement) to think they can just issue a blanket Eff U to the hobby and still have that line waiting next month. Maybe he's right, idk. I hope not though.

As far as the Moser/pwcc thing, hopefully the authorities will get it cleaned up. I'm not sure how publicity helps them do that. But demand for PSA can only be lessened through publicity, and only a lessening of demand will bring reform. In that, I agree and see your point.

Thanks for the answer. You gave me things to consider that hadn't previously occurred to me.

Smiles....

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As for the portion highlighted in red... I think that more publicity/exposure will sway people to steer clear of PWCC. Based on recent prices realized, the corruption message has reached only a tiny percentage of their client base (so far). Awareness needs to be expanded, if anything is ever going to change. Otherwise, Brent's tenets will continue to infiltrate the hobby.

As for the portion highlighted in bold... I believe you nailed it. Very insightful perspective. It is the starry-eyed collectors that are largely perpetuating this nonsense. And Orlando's Letter clearly shows his level of respect (or lack there of) for his loyal cult of followers.

[maniac_73]

Rovell definitely did his research for this piece. I actually directed him to this board and Blowout forums a few months ago when the controversy began. Whoever said he has less of a base than Keith Obermann should really check his social media numbers he has 2 millon twitter follwoers

[Just.Rachel]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As for the portion highlighted in red... I think that more publicity/exposure will sway people to steer clear of PWCC. Based on recent prices realized, the corruption message has reached only a tiny percentage of their client base (so far). Awareness needs to be expanded, if anything is ever going to change. Otherwise, Brent's tenets will continue to infiltrate the hobby.



As for the portion highlighted in bold... I believe you nailed it. Very insightful perspective. It is the starry-eyed collectors that are largely perpetuating this nonsense. And Orlando's Letter clearly shows his level of respect (or lack there of) for his loyal cult of followers.

Here's what bothers me:

I'm guessing most PSA subs are done by people intending to sell the cards. We know people who want to sell cards will continue to submit them as long as there's more money doing that than selling them another way, raw or in another TPG slab. So, in order for PSA to lose business and feel the crunch, PSA slabbed cards will need to be fetching crappy prices for those trying to sell them.

Ugh. What about all the honest people out there? Does every PSA card have to lose value in order for reform to happen? That sucks.

I'm sure I'm way behind most people here in thinking this through. I'm kinda slow, admittedly. But every time I see this story in print, it feels like a gut punch.

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[Rookiemonster]

So what happens if PSA goes under? Do we all get refunds ? Does it basically void any authentication?

[CobbSpikedMe]

I don't have any problem with prices dropping from the inflated levels they have attained the last few years. I'd like to be able to afford more cards that I can't right now. So if that becomes a result of this whole scandal then I'll be okay with that.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Many are working themselves up into a “sky-is-falling” mentality over this that is way beyond anything that has been established as fact so far.

It appears that some altered cards have found their way into slabs. That is based on some reasonably done investigative work, but it is not quite without some gaps and some assumptions that still need to be confirmed. Having the business records of The TPGs, PWCC, eBay and the major auction houses would go a long way to helping to complete the work done so far. However, unless legal authorities get involved I tend to doubt that the stakeholders mentioned would be willing to voluntary turn over that information.

Whether ornnit legal authorities are getting involved remains to be seen. There are media accounts that the FBI is looking into things. If true, that is hopeful news. In the meantime we’ve had conpletely unsubstantiated speculations about thousands and thousands of bad cards, CEOs dumping stock, TPG complicity and various other hyperbole that comes from various constituencies who have different interests in how this whole thing pans out and are trying to create spin and groundswell favoring the outcomes they most desire.

What is clear is that there are accusations and concerns about integrity issues in the hobby. Some stakeholders have gotten out in front of it with their communications about it. Others have not done quite as good a job, further fueling speculation and shaking confidence.

What is needed more than anything is patience and time to sort out what has and what has not actually happened. But there have to also be limits to that patience. This cannot be allowed to drag on endlessly, only to end up swept under a rug until the next episode that results in a flare up arrives.

It is the responsibility of the major stakeholders to get to the bottom of things in a timely manner and then transparently let the hobby know what they have found and what they plan to do to address it and prevent similar episodes again in the future.

A few months time seems woefully insufficient for getting that done, but I would expect that it shouldn’t take more than the time that has elapsed already for some concrete information to be provided.

As for those who continue to create suspicion and doubt through unsubstantiated claims and speculation, that only defects from getting to the bottom of exactly what is and fuels an unhelpful, and potentially damaging, mob mentality.

Stick to the facts. Respectfully reach out to the major stakeholders and ask them what they are doing about the current situation and when they are willing to commit to providing a transparent update on where they are in investigating and addressing it. Avoid going down the path of conspiracy theories and character assasination based on comments that are not backed up by hard evidence. That is truly what is in the best interests of the hobby and the many small stakeholders who are legitimately concerned about the present situation.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

So what happens if PSA goes under? Do we all get refunds ? Does it basically void any authentication?

What has happened to the cards of any grading company that has gone under?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Many are working themselves up into a “sky-is-falling” mentality over this that is way beyond anything that has been established as fact so far.

It appears that some altered cards have found their way into slabs. That is based on some reasonably done investigative work, but it is not quite without some gaps and some assumptions that still need to be confirmed. Having the business records of The TPGs, PWCC, eBay and the major auction houses would go a long way to helping to complete the work done so far. However, unless legal authorities get involved I tend to doubt that the stakeholders mentioned would be willing to voluntary turn over that information.

Whether ornnit legal authorities are getting involved remains to be seen. There are media accounts that the FBI is looking into things. If true, that is hopeful news. In the meantime we’ve had conpletely unsubstantiated speculations about thousands and thousands of bad cards, CEOs dumping stock, TPG complicity and various other hyperbole that comes from various constituencies who have different interests in how this whole thing pans out and are trying to create spin and groundswell favoring the outcomes they most desire.

What is clear is that there are accusations and concerns about integrity issues in the hobby. Some stakeholders have gotten out in front of it with their communications about it. Others have not done quite as good a job, further fueling speculation and shaking confidence.

What is needed more than anything is patience and time to sort out what has and what has not actually happened. But there have to also be limits to that patience. This cannot be allowed to drag on endlessly, only to end up swept under a rug until the next episode that results in a flare up arrives.

It is the responsibility of the major stakeholders to get to the bottom of things in a timely manner and then transparently let the hobby know what they have found and what they plan to do to address it and prevent similar episodes again in the future.

A few months time seems woefully insufficient for getting that done, but I would expect that it shouldn’t take more than the time that has elapsed already for some concrete information to be provided.

As for those who continue to create suspicion and doubt through unsubstantiated claims and speculation, that only defects from getting to the bottom of exactly what is and fuels an unhelpful, and potentially damaging, mob mentality.

Stick to the facts. Respectfully reach out to the major stakeholders and ask them what they are doing about the current situation and when they are willing to commit to providing a transparent update on where they are in investigating and addressing it. Avoid going down the path of conspiracy theories and character assasination based on comments that are not backed up by hard evidence. That is truly what is in the best interests of the hobby and the many small stakeholders who are legitimately concerned about the present situation.

There are more facts out there than you list above.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC's own lawyer has confirmed on this Board there is an FBI investigation, with all due respect what are you talking about?

By the way, what "stakeholders" are out in front of it in your opinion?

"It appears that some altered cards have found their way into slabs." You have a gift for understatement and minimization. Perhaps the best line yet of this whole epic. I can't even think of a good analogy. Noah standing on the Ark and saying, it appears to be raining.

[Brian Van Horn]

Well written. To the point, depressing and accurate.

Act two starts later this week.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

So what happens if PSA goes under? Do we all get refunds ? Does it basically void any authentication?

They always gave and give opinions, and the labels will still be documentation of their opinions.

No reason to take their opinions more or less seriously then or now.

[Exhibitman]

I'm with Ryan on this one: cleaning up the mess PWCC and PSA caused is not going to be pretty in the short term but overall, it has to be done if there is to be any reliance on TPGs in the future.

[Just.Rachel]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

... Respectfully reach out to the major stakeholders and ask them what they are doing about the current situation and when they are willing to commit to providing a transparent update on where they are in investigating and addressing it....

Errr... That's funny. Most aren't currently taking questions. Tried PSA's forum, they just kept deleting questions no matter how respectfully they were asked.

All I've seen are the three Ds. Delete, deny, deflect. Maybe I missed something?

G'head though. Give 'er a shot. Let me know what they say. ; )



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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Just.Rachel

Errr... That's funny. Most aren't currently taking questions. Tried PSA's forum, they just kept deleting questions no matter how respectfully they were asked.

All I've seen are the three Ds. Delete, deny, deflect. Maybe I missed something?

G'head though. Give 'er a shot. Let me know what they say. ; )



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You missed spin and contain and minimize and reassure.

The best part of his post was Joe asking for civil discourse. The company's idea of civil discourse is POOF.