Mr October....Cliff Lee 7-2 post season, 2.13 ERA....80 K's

[tedzan]

It will be very interesting when he faces the Yankees. He has an edge on them.

And, if Texas and the Phillies are fortunate enough to meet in the World Series,
it will be even more interesting to see how Lee does against his old team.
Who were absolutely foolish to let him go.


TED Z

[jp1216]

And to think the Indians had a 3-1 series lead on Boston in '07 - and Cliff Lee wasn't even on the post season roster.... Games 5, 6 & 7 go to Boston and Lee wins the Cy Young in '08...

[kkkkandp]

He was certainly killer last night. I'm just surprised Washington left him in in the ninth.

[barrysloate]

The Yankees are lucky that they will only see Lee twice.

[tedzan]

That is contingent on the weather this week. If games are delayed, and the AL series goes 7 games, Lee
might just pitch 3 games against the Yankees.

I met Cliff Lee in Philly and I'm very impressed with him.....and, he is a very likeable guy.


TED Z

[tedzan]

If statistics are any indication (and, I think they do matter in post-season play), Lee has an amazing 1.44 ERA
with an even more amazing....54 K's/6 BB's ratio.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

I know...playoffs are quirky and if you add a rainout or two, starters can pitch three times. And although Sabathia is scheduled to pitch games one and five, if the Yanks were down 3 games to none, you have to assume Burnett would not pitch game 4. So anything can happen. No question that Lee is a powerhouse...as well as Halladay, Lincecum, and a few others. This post season will be dominated by starting pitching.

[M's_Fan]

I still can't believe some of the infield gaffes that allowed two runs to score in last night's game.

In the first inning, Andrus singles and steals second. Josh Hamilton then hits an infield grounder, and Andrus scores all the way from second base after first baseman Carlos Pena tosses the ball to Price to get the out at first.

HELLO, THERE IS ONE OUT BOYS, YOU GOT TO HOLD THAT RUNNER AT THIRD! Pena should have at least stared Andrus down and pump-faked, the delay might cost the Rays the out at first but you can't allow the run to score! Unbelievable.

In the sixth inning, Price cuts late to first base and than argues with the umpire over the call instead of throwing out Guererro at home. Vlad wasn't (and can't) run that fast and this cost the Rays another run.

Just like the Braves/Giants series, infield fundamentals of defense was the deciding factor in the series.

Does it seem like modern players lack some of the fundamentals to play heads up baseball? I remember Rob Neyer writing an ariticle earlier this year making this argument, that modern players are more talented than ever, but lack the knowledge of some of the fundamentals of the game.

[mybuddyinc]

Yes, Lee's been great, and some of the "possible" match-ups are interesting....

BUT ..... come on ...... This Saturday:

Halladay / Lincecum

I foresee a possible repeat of either the Cadore / Oeschger or Vaughn / Toney "affairs."

[prewarsports]

In response to M's Fans comments, you are absolutely right about the fundamentals and I believe it is for the following reason.

In the old days kids would play actual baseball games all day long and have thousands and thousands of game situation moments logged under their belts before playing at any level of professional baseball.

Now, (especially in Latin American Countries) players are drilled for hours and hours a day on skills that impress scouts and many of them get drafted to play professional baseball with only a few actual innings of real baseball "games" where they can learn situational instincts. Americans also play far fewer games of baseball than they used to as they divide their time between other sports. I am a coach and other than the 15-20 games the kids play in organized ball a year, they dont get together and play baseball with their friends ever so that is it, 15 games a year!

If you do the math, some of these Professional Baseball player in the Minor Leagues have played less than 100 actual games of baseball at any level before becoming professional.

You can teach all the skills in the world but if the instincts are not there, you cant make up for it when the kid is 19 and in the minor leagues. It will never be natural to the player. I am not a Derek Jeter fan but instrincts like he has are a throwback, always in the right place at the right time. Back in the day, most players had that.

I would take a smart .280 hitter over a dumb .320 hitter any day!

Rhys

[M's_Fan]

Make that 7-0 (and his team is 8-0 in the post season every time he has pitched)

Cliff Lee has the lowest post-season ERA of any pitcher with more than 7 wins.

Best post-season pitcher ever? The story is still being written....

[B O'Brien]

Great game by Mr. Lee. Bad playoff thinking, IMO, sending him out for the 9th after picking up the runs in the 8th inning. Every inning counts this time of year. Dust off the mop man or get you closer an inning to knock off the nerves.
Any thoughts?
Bob

[t206hound]

Lee didn't pitch the ninth; after the Rangers scored 6 in the top of the ninth they brought in Feliz to finish it up.

Originally Posted by B O'Brien

Great game by Mr. Lee. Bad playoff thinking, IMO, sending him out for the 9th after picking up the runs in the 8th inning. Every inning counts this time of year. Dust off the mop man or get you closer an inning to knock off the nerves.
Any thoughts?
Bob

[dstraate]

I thought his pitch count was up too. I bet he's covered in ice all day. Makes it difficult to pitch him in anything but Game 7. And after throwing 130 plus, that's pushing it

[tedzan]

I love this guy....despite the fact that I'm a Yankees and a Phillies fan.

Frankly, I don't understand Team owners anymore........

With Cleveland, Cliff Lee goes from CY YOUNG....to...."SAYONARA"

With the Phillies, Cliff Lee gets them into post-season play, then they, too, say...."SAYONARA"....Cliff.

The Yankees had an opportunity to get Cliff Lee this Summer, but chose to play the "waiting game".

Wouldn't it be delicious justice, if Lee continues his winning streak; and, 1st eliminates the Yankees,
then the Phillies....from winning this year's World Series ?

I'm rooting for Nolan Ryan and his Texas team this year.


TED Z

[tbob]

Cliff is the pride of Benton, Arkansas. Tonight another native Arkansan, A.J. Burnett, goes for the Yanks.

[tedzan]

Here's some of my observations of last nite's game......

Cliff started off in Cliff Lee fashion, striking out 3 in the first 2 innings. In the 3rd, Renteria gets on by an error, and Lee uncharacteristically
hits Torres. At that point, it seemed that Lee had momentarily lost his focus. Sanchez followed with a double to left to start a 2-run rally.
Then Lee recovered by striking out Burrell and Ross.

In the 5th, Lincecum led off by grounding out. Then Torres doubled to Left.

I have to insert this observation here....I thought both Sanchez's 1st double and Torres' double should have been (long) singles. Where the
heck was Texas Left-fielder (Cruz) positioned for these two Right-handed batters ? He was no where to be seen on the TV screen.

Anyhow, Lee gave up another double to Sanchez (which drove in Torres). Score is SF 3-2. Then Lee struck out Posey for the 2nd out. About
that point in the 5th, we all saw O'Day & catcher leave the Texas dug-out to go to San Fran's "pseudo-bullpen". And, so did Cliff Lee see this
action. I would bet it probably rattled him. I think Ron Washington made a premature decision.

My point here is....isn't the San Fran stadium a relatively new park ? So, what kind of modern Major League stadium, nowadays, doesn't have
a well-structured, enclosed bullpen beyond its outfield ? ?



TED Z

[Anthony S.]

I seem to remember Peter Magowan, the driving force behind the new ballpark, specifically wanted the bullpens situated down the lines. He liked the fact the fans could watch the pitchers warm up. I like it too. The fans along the right field line have a little routine they go into whenever an opposing pitcher warms up. Two different sounds: One when the pitcher throws the ball and another when the catcher lobs the ball back. It's kinda funny.

The other factor is that tract of land on which the stadium is built is, I believe, the smallest in the majors. Something like 8 acres. Just over the right field wall there's a 10-15 yard wide walkway and then McCovey cove. Not really sure they could have fit in a bullpen back there if they'd wanted to, which they didn't.

[barrysloate]

Ted makes a good point in that isn't it distracting to a starting pitcher if he sees a reliever coming in to warm up? Wouldn't that put undue pressure on him if he thinks he's pretty close to being yanked?

[Anthony S.]

I think if Cliff Lee is mentally tough enough to accomplish the amazing feats he has in hostile environments over the past couple years, simply seeing a teammate warming up isn't going to send him into a tailspin.

[dstudeba]

So Cliff Lee can go from a dominant postseason pitcher to hitable because some gets up in the bullpen? Sorry I believe his mental ability is stronger than that.

Petco park was built recently and has no bullpen....for the visiting team.

[Dan Carson]

Cliff Lee got his butt kicked, plain and simple!!

GO GIANTS!

[barrysloate]

I agree Cliff Lee didn't have his A stuff last night and was hit pretty hard. And a veteran pitcher shouldn't get easily rattled. But some pitchers, say those with less experience, might. Most relievers warm up out of sight of the starter, and I always assumed this was done intentionally. If a starter is struggling a bit and believes he has what it will take to stay in a game, the last thing he wants to see is the bullpen getting up.

[M's_Fan]

I agree with you Ted, if Washington would have just let Cliff finish that inning, I think Texas would have had a good shot at winning the game. He seemed to have trouble locating his curveball, and he lost confidence in it, but he wouldn't have given up that 3 run homer to Uribe, which broke the game wide open. It was a very premature decision by Ron W. Sure, a veteran shouldn't get rattled, but Lee is human after all.

[Robextend]

I think visible or not, Cliff Lee is sharp enough to realize there is probably going to be action in the bullpen given the fact he had thrown a ton of pitches, was getting hit pretty hard, and that the game was getting away from them.

[David R]

That Lee got rattled because he saw someone warming up is ridiculous as is blaming the fact that the bullpen is visible.

[tedzan]

I think you and I here are the Lone Rangers (clever pun)

We are surrounded on all sides by San Fran Giants fans.

Anyhow, in a 2 days it will be Halloween....and, the ghosts
of New York and Horace Stoneham still haunt the Giants.

Will they finally shake-off the 56 year old New York jinx ?


TED Z

[Rickyy]

Lee didn't really have his good stuff to me..his breaking stuff was floating up there...and he couldn't really spot his fastball and cutter the way he wanted...the Giants were right on his pitches even when Lee had them shut down early... Uribe really worked him before Lee struck him out..but I think that also took a lot out of him... Sanchez raked him... Ross also hit a ball hard right back up the middle.. the Giants are never a patient team and I think that worked to their advantage this time..they knew Lee throws strikes so they were aggresive early in the counts..

[FrankWakefield]

Hey Ted... what are the Halloween colors???


I'm for the Giants, I like their old tradition, and I have a bit of a National League bias.

I've mentioned it here before, but I'm reminded of going to a Cubs - Cards game in the mid-80s, Cubs won in 11 innnings, I think it was 12-11. Sandburg had a great multiple HR game, McGee had a good game, it was a Saturday game of the week... Anyway, I had a 'standing room only' ticket, and stood for several innings beside a man who'd have been in his late 60s, he was quietly and calmly explaining details of the game to a grandson of about age 12. We struck up a conversation that lasted several innings, with silence scattered throughout. Eventually, I asked him what his favorite team was. He didn't look at me as he responded, he just gazed out across the field as he said, "The Giants, the New York Giants." The man had not yet forgiven the move to the west coast. I hope he's watching this series.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by david r

that lee got rattled because he saw someone warming up is ridiculous as is blaming the fact that the bullpen is visible.

x 2

[barrysloate]

Frank- I remember that game well. I believe Sandberg hit the tying home run in the bottom of the 9th, then the winning home run in the bottom of the 11th. It was a classic game.

[tedzan]

Very good observation regarding your color comparison (Halloween -- Giants).

I grew up with guys like the man you met at that Cubs - Cards game. When the New York Giants left the Polo Grounds in
1957, these guys were devastated. Three years prior to that move, the Giants beat the mighty Cleveland Indians 4-0 in
the World Series.
People always talk about hating Walter O'Malley for the Dodgers leaving Ebbets field (actually Robert Moses, the NY poli-
tician, was more to blame). Anyhow, Horace Stoneham was just as hated as O'Malley. It was a "double whammy" for New
Yorkers in 1957. It was the year I graduated High School. Most of my classmates were Dodger or Giants fans. While "talkin
baseball" at our recent 50th H.S. reunion with my classmates, I will tell you that many of these guys still hold grudges 50
years later.



TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

So much for Mr. October.

[tbob]

Give Lee a break. He pitched a helluva game, threw one bad pitch to Renteria. He is still one of the top pitchers in baseball.

[tedzan]

However, Cliff Lee is not "Mr November".....

In the 7th inning last nite, Lee committed one of the "cardinal sins" of baseball. With an 0-2 count on Uribe, Lee failed to waste the 3rd pitch.
This pitch was right over the plate and Uribe singled to center to keep the rally going. In my opinion, had Lee wasted that 3rd pitch, he most
likely he would have gotten Uribe out (as he had in Uribe's prior two at bats). And, the 7th inning would've been different....as Renteria would
not have been at bat.

Anyhow, don't misconstrue me, Tim Lincecum pitched a great game and deserves all the credit due him.


Moreso, I fault Ron Washington for not starting Lee in the very pivotal 4th game. This would have been an advantage for Texas, as Lee would
not have faced-off with Lincecum.

This scenario was a repeat of last year's Series, where I thought Charlie Manuel should have started Lee in the 4th game against the Yankees.
And, the Phillies would have had a better chance of winning



TED Z

[thekingofclout]

ZERO RINGS

He's good but c'mon now... Koufax & Gibby were ALL World Series Games! Much tougher environment in which to preform as Mr Lee found out.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Moreso, I fault Ron Washington for not starting Lee in the very pivotal 4th game. This would have been an advantage for Texas, as Lee would
not have faced-off with Lincecum.

This scenario was a repeat of last year's Series, where I thought Charlie Manuel should have started Lee in the 4th game against the Yankees.
And, the Phillies would have had a better chance of winning



TED Z

Cliff Lee never has pitched on three days' rest in his major-league career. The fact that two big-league managers in two consecutive World Series chose to not have him do that probably shouldn't be used as an indictment. Rather they might be given credit for knowing a player's limitations and not placing him in a situation in which he's more likely to fail than succeed.

[tedzan]

At this point in time, I do not see how any current pitcher in BB that can be compared with Koufax or Gibson.

Furthermore, in 1965 & 1967....Walt Alston and Red Schoendienst (LA & St Lo Cards managers, respectively) took
a page (or 2) from Casey Stengel's book. These managers were not afraid of starting their "Aces" in 3 games of a
7-game World Series.


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Furthermore, in 1965 & 1967....Walt Alston and Red Schoendienst (LA & St Lo Cards managers, respectively) took
a page (or 2) from Casey Stengel's book. These managers were not afraid of starting their "Aces" in 3 games of a
7-game World Series.


TED Z

Ted,

You realize, of course, that not all "aces" are the same, right? Just because an "ace" of a pitching staff 45 years ago was suited to pitching on short rest doesn't mean that the ace of the Rangers' staff in 2010 also was up to the same task. Just like every clean-up hitter isn't comfortable swinging away at a 3-0 pitch, players are different.

I'll stop now. Don't want to be a contrarian.

[tedzan]

If guys like Allie Reynolds, Bob Turley, Sandy Koufax, and Bob Gibson pitched on 3-days rest during World Series play and were successful......
then why can't any of the current crop of pitchers do it ?



TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

3 days rest used to be the norm.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

If guys like Allie Reynolds, Bob Turley, Sandy Koufax, and Bob Gibson pitched on 3-days rest during World Series play and were successful......
then why can't any of the current crop of pitchers do it ?

TED Z

If a Toyota Prius can go more than 40 miles on a gallon of gas, why can't a Corvette, Hummer or Jet Ski?

If I can get grape juice from a grape, why can't I from an apple, orange or Jet Ski?

Seriously, no one is saying that none of the current crop of pitchers aren't suited to pitch on short rest, only that maybe Cliff Lee isn't. And my guess is his managers would be in a better position to know his limitations than would a baseball fan watching on TV somewhere in Pennsylvania.

Again, players/pitchers are individuals. The fact that Bob Turley could successfully pitch on three day's rest has absolutely no bearing on whether Cliff Lee can -- or should. That's like saying Denny McLain could drink six cases of pop in a single day, so why can't Justin Verlander?

[oldjudge]

I think that Lee's poor World Series performance will lower his price on the free agent market and provide the Yankees with a better opportunity to sign him (should they want to). I bet the Rangers are sorry now that they gave up all those young players to rent Lee for half a season. With Texas he was 4-6 in the regular season and 3-2 in the post season (0-2 in the World Series).

[tedzan]

Hey Rob

Your "convoluted comparisons" are hilarious....thanks for the chuckle.

And to this comment of yours......
"And my guess is his managers would be in a better position to know his limitations than would a baseball fan watching on TV
somewhere in Pennsylvania."

I have followed BB since 1947 and have a pretty darn good sense of what is possible. I translated this into 17 playing / managing
years at my workplace's Softball fast pitch league (we have many 1st place trophy's to show how successful my managing was).

Of course my managing experience doesn't in any way compare with professional BB like your playing days; however, you do not
know me....so, quit making your uninformed judgements.



TED Z

[Anthony S.]

God, I love the internet.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I have followed BB since 1947 and have a pretty darn good sense of what is possible. I translated this into 17 playing / managing
years at my workplace's Softball fast pitch league (we have many 1st place trophy's to show how successful my managing was).

TED Z

Wow.

Just wow.

Edited to add: You got me, Ted. For a minute there, I actually thought you were serious. Good one.

[dstudeba]

Incredible, you can't make this stuff up.

[barrysloate]

Allow me to change the subject. Instead of harping on Lee (no, not Harper Lee), let me praise Tim Lincecum. A two time Cy Young winner by 25, two victories in the Giants first S.F. World Series, a countercultural figure...he's become a bit of a folk hero and I'm certain they idolize him in the Bay.

And how about Buster Posey? In mid-May he's playing minor league ball and waiting for his call up. On November 1, he's a nationally known athlete and a world champion.

There are many great stories here.

[nolemmings]

Ted, I can't agree that Washington should have gone with Lee in Game 4, or that it would have made a difference. His mates got shut out on three hits in that game, offering even less support than they did last night. If the Texas bats can't get pumped to hit a rookie in a game they had to win, you can't blame that on the manager.

As for the three-day rest issue, I think your point is valid. You needn't go as far back as you did to show that the elite can go on short rest. Three of the most special World Series to me featured starters that went on three days rest--twice: 1987 (Viola), 1991 (Morris) and 2001 (Schilling). All were World Series MVPs. I may becoming an old fart, but that isn't exactly ancient history.

In some respects I think Lee could and perhaps should have asked for the ball in Game 4--maybe his sacrifice in trying something he had not done before would have sparked his team. Still, he was coming off of a pounding, and I've heard nothing to suggest that short rest could in any way benefit him (unlike those rare sinkerballers who seem to pitch better when they're tired). Besides and again, his fellow Rangers should not have needed heroic inspiration when facing a rookie pitcher down 2-1, and it was the bats that cost them this series (and maybe the bullpen, at least a little), not the manager.

[oldjudge]

Ted-Was that A or B league?