UPDATED 5/16: BEWARE PAYPAL CHARGEBACKS! If you sell on eBay, read this...

[bounce]

UPDATE: Go to post 70 to see final resolution and summary, case ended in my favor so I did get the money. Long wait, but fortunately it's resolved now.


I don't always comment on things like this, but this one takes the cake and I feel obligated to warn everyone who may be selling anything online to be very wary.

I've currently got a dispute going at Paypal for a card I sold in January.

I sold a card on eBay on January 2nd.
Buyer paid on January 2nd, I received funds via Paypal.
I shipped priority mail, insured, signature confirmation on January 3rd.
*NOTE: Interesting fact on this, USPS shows all that. Paypal doesn't show the signature confirmation service, more on that in a moment.
On January 5th, USPS left a notice with the buyer.
On January 9th, buyer signed for the card.
Shortly thereafter, I was given positive feedback on eBay from the buyer.

Buyer has subsequently gone to their "financial institution", who has then gone to Paypal and filed a claim against me for "Refund not received" in middle of February.

Paypal initially put the funds on hold, but earlier this week took them permanently from my account.

First, they said that it wasn't covered under buyer protection because it didn't have signature required. I've proven to them that it did, and had included that information when I first responded to the case. Today I sent them the pdf showing the signature from the USPS records.

Once that was resolved, they've now said that it still doesn't matter because the seller protection DOES NOT cover "refund not received".

I have shown Paypal that there was NO REQUEST for refund on their site (which they agree with), and that NO REQUEST for refund was made on eBay either (which they agree with).

I also spoke to eBay today, who said they're not involved any more because Paypal handles the money. They acknowledged no request for refund had been made of me on eBay, and they acknowledged I had received positive feedback on the transaction.

As it stands at this moment, Paypal is telling me that the decision is in the hands of the buyer's "financial institution", who of course I don't know who that is and neither eBay or Paypal will give me that information. I asked them both, and both said they couldn't provide it even if they had it (which eBay says they do not).

Paypal of course says they are fighting for me as their customer, but have no intention of covering me under seller protection because again that DOES NOT include "Refund not received". Why they didn't tell the other "financial institution" that no request for refund has been submitted, and no evidence of return of the item has been demonstrated, before taking the funds out of my Paypal account I have no idea.

The Paypal representative also told me the following, I'm paraphrasing but they're pretty close to quotes.
1) Federal law allows buyers to dispute charges with their financial institutions (which I certainly understand), and there's nothing Paypal can really do about that other than provide what evidence I may give them of a valid sale (which I've already done).

2) The only way I can prevent risk of chargeback is to accept cash. Yes, a Paypal representative said that out loud to me today on the phone.

3) If the financial institution sides with their customer (what do you think they're otherwise going to do? I asked my Paypal rep), my only recourse at that point is to try and recover the card back through small claims court.


I'll update this more as this unfolds, but as of right now it looks like I'm out $1,425.

Felt obligated to share, because at this point I have zero expectation of getting the card or my money back, and the implications of this for any other item I sell through eBay has me seriously considering if my internet days as a seller are permanently at an end. I had not really investigated the payment options that I can accept on eBay, but I definitely will need to look into that now if this is how Paypal is going to defend me - which is to say basically they aren't. Why wouldn't everyone just dispute charges for "Refund not received" through their credit card company if it's really this easy to get Paypal to give seller's funds back over.

[mattsey9]

Sorry to hear this. What is the Ebay ID of the buyer so I can block them?

[commishbob]

That's ridiculous. To be out that much without much recourse is a shame. Every time I think 'this might be a good time to sell some stuff on eBay' I read stories like this and wonder if I should even try.

[Throttlesteer]

There are many folks that make their living with Ebay and PayPal. There are also a small percentage of people that consistently find new ways of gaming the system and screwing people over.

Getting this persons EBay ID wouldn't help much. They probably have a bunch of them.

[DeanH3]

That sucks is a complete understatement. I do appreciate you sharing this as I just went and cancelled a fairly expensive eBay listing. I want no part of that mess.

[Lorewalker]

That is one messed up situation. Sorry to hear this. Have a few questions.

Have you reached out to the buyer to get his side of the story? It might provide you with something that you could use against him with paypal and his financial institution.

Many things here do not make sense but has paypal explained to you how they can place your funds on hold for Refund Not Received when there is no record of such a request having been made? It must have been that the buyer contacted his financial institution and opened a dispute. If so he has lied to them because there is no proof that he has attempted to return the merchandise, at least as far as you have seen.

Having paypal, who has no skin in the game, fight on a seller's behalf is a bit scary. They certainly do not sound like they are advocating too hard for you given the proof you have provided them. The financial institution should accept that as this being a clear case of fraud on the buyer's part.

And yeah as a public service to other sellers who are reading this, you might want to let them know who this dbag is.

Good luck,
Chase

[glchen]

I think you need to escalate this and talk to someone else at Paypal. How can you give a refund if you did not even receive your original item back? The buyer needs to prove that they went you the card back with the tracking number and the signature confirmation. Otherwise, it's just mail fraud.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Have a few questions.

Have you reached out to the buyer to get his side of the story?

has paypal explained to you how they can place your funds on hold for Refund Not Received when there is no record of such a request having been made?

It must have been that the buyer contacted his financial institution and opened a dispute. If so he has lied to them because there is no proof that he has attempted to return the merchandise, at least as far as you have seen.

Yes, reached out to buyer via eBay message and the email address I got from Paypal. No reply to either as of right now. I also have a phone number, have not tried that yet.

Paypal was made aware that no request for refund had been made to me either via eBay or Paypal, which their reps have confirmed with me every time we've spoken. eBay rep also has confirmed no request for refund. This is one of my key questions - so if you know that a request for refund was not made, why would you agree to issue the refund? Even more, why would you agree to do that without requiring that return of the item when there is clear evidence that the item was indeed delivered and signed for?

Yes, buyer went through his "financial institution", Paypal has confirmed that is who was requesting return of the funds but they obviously won't tell me which institution that is. Paypal putting the funds on hold during the dispute process is normal, and while irritating it's not a big deal - people should get their opportunities to reply. However, subsequently deciding to remove the funds from me permanently despite the lack of the refund request, as well as in light of all the other information I provided showing delivery, signature, etc., and then not requiring the item to at least be returned is what is utterly confusing.

As if that's not enough, the case is still OPEN within Paypal. That's the only thing that gives me any hope, but then again why would the "financial institution" just back their customer if Paypal already gave them the money back? From their perspective, isn't it really Paypal's problem now? And while Paypal is "fighting for me", they're really just passing the buck to me to try and figure out some other way to collect since they gave the money back already.

[bounce]

I'm currently trying to understand from Paypal what their exact process is for evaluating a "refund not received" claim.

Obviously they don't require a request for refund, since they've already agreed with me that one has not been made.

Again, they put the funds on hold initially, which is something I've had happen before - that's not unusual. What I find disturbing and bizarre is their decision to go ahead and take the funds permanently out of my account, after I had provided them all the information above and spoke to them on the phone TWICE. The only other piece was the signature of the buyer, which was sent today after it was already too late. Regardless, according to Paypal that part didn't even matter because no one says I didn't deliver the item.

So again - someone please help me understand what the Paypal process is for determining whether or not a request for refund is valid, when no such request was ever made, but I still provided evidence indicating that not only was the item delivered, the buyer was also satisfied with it at least enough to leave me positive feedback.

Believe me, I'm going to continue pressing this with Paypal because they screwed up and took money out of my account when there was no valid reason to do so, particularly considering that I was actively engaged and replying to the claim request.

[Huck]

Sorry, to hear that you might be out close to $1,500. I have heard similar stories which is one reason (fees being another), I have been reluctant to start selling on ebay. Granted it is a pain, but wouldn't having two accounts from two separate institutions work? Ebay buyers pay into account A. Once paid funds arrive to Account A the funds are wired to Account B. Paypal can't take $$ that is not there.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bounce

UPDATE: Go to post 70 to see final resolution and summary, case ended in my favor so I did get the money. Long wait, but fortunately it's resolved now.


I don't always comment on things like this, but this one takes the cake and I feel obligated to warn everyone who may be selling anything online to be very wary.

I've currently got a dispute going at Paypal for a card I sold in January.

I sold a card on eBay on January 2nd.
Buyer paid on January 2nd, I received funds via Paypal.
I shipped priority mail, insured, signature confirmation on January 3rd.
*NOTE: Interesting fact on this, USPS shows all that. Paypal doesn't show the signature confirmation service, more on that in a moment.
On January 5th, USPS left a notice with the buyer.
On January 9th, buyer signed for the card.
Shortly thereafter, I was given positive feedback on eBay from the buyer.

Buyer has subsequently gone to their "financial institution", who has then gone to Paypal and filed a claim against me for "Refund not received" in middle of February.

Paypal initially put the funds on hold, but earlier this week took them permanently from my account.

First, they said that it wasn't covered under buyer protection because it didn't have signature required. I've proven to them that it did, and had included that information when I first responded to the case. Today I sent them the pdf showing the signature from the USPS records.

Once that was resolved, they've now said that it still doesn't matter because the seller protection DOES NOT cover "refund not received".

I have shown Paypal that there was NO REQUEST for refund on their site (which they agree with), and that NO REQUEST for refund was made on eBay either (which they agree with).

I also spoke to eBay today, who said they're not involved any more because Paypal handles the money. They acknowledged no request for refund had been made of me on eBay, and they acknowledged I had received positive feedback on the transaction.

As it stands at this moment, Paypal is telling me that the decision is in the hands of the buyer's "financial institution", who of course I don't know who that is and neither eBay or Paypal will give me that information. I asked them both, and both said they couldn't provide it even if they had it (which eBay says they do not).

Paypal of course says they are fighting for me as their customer, but have no intention of covering me under seller protection because again that DOES NOT include "Refund not received". Why they didn't tell the other "financial institution" that no request for refund has been submitted, and no evidence of return of the item has been demonstrated, before taking the funds out of my Paypal account I have no idea.

The Paypal representative also told me the following, I'm paraphrasing but they're pretty close to quotes.
1) Federal law allows buyers to dispute charges with their financial institutions (which I certainly understand), and there's nothing Paypal can really do about that other than provide what evidence I may give them of a valid sale (which I've already done).

2) The only way I can prevent risk of chargeback is to accept cash. Yes, a Paypal representative said that out loud to me today on the phone.

3) If the financial institution sides with their customer (what do you think they're otherwise going to do? I asked my Paypal rep), my only recourse at that point is to try and recover the card back through small claims court.


I'll update this more as this unfolds, but as of right now it looks like I'm out $1,425.

Felt obligated to share, because at this point I have zero expectation of getting the card or my money back, and the implications of this for any other item I sell through eBay has me seriously considering if my internet days as a seller are permanently at an end. I had not really investigated the payment options that I can accept on eBay, but I definitely will need to look into that now if this is how Paypal is going to defend me - which is to say basically they aren't. Why wouldn't everyone just dispute charges for "Refund not received" through their credit card company if it's really this easy to get Paypal to give seller's funds back over.

AND THAT would be the last time I use them. I would have my attorney sue PAY PAL. They are scum and I cut them off many years ago. This is sickening.

[AGuinness]

Glad it had a favorable resolution, even though the timeframe and hoops are ridiculous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I believe Paypal just changed their T&C's to cover this type of scenario under their seller protection

[pokerplyr80]

Congrats on the favorable outcome. Hopefully AJ is right about this scenario now being covered. I think I will stick to either selling to people I know in the hobby or consigning to avoid situations like this though. Or at least make sure never to keep funds in my PayPal account.